Would you fire Atkins

[Knowitall]

Yup. He's gone.

[xposbrad]

There was a time, fans here were making fun of the Orioles. They still have what, another top 4 30 prospects on top of their solid team they have now + whatever free agents they add. I just look at the position this club is in with it's farm team, it's current roster and contracts and think this team needs a new group to sell off and rebuild. With 230m payroll, and several years of holding onto prospects from trades/drafting, it wasn't that hard to make the playoffs, so I don't give much credit for him getting there. Because the Yanks/Red Sox haven't figured things out, we squeaked into the playoffs. That is not going to last. The Orioles now are probably well positioned for at least 5+ years.

 

So look at our roster, the prospects we have coming up, the contracts we have out there (Vlad/BO not signed), and the competition. Ask yourselves if you feel confident Shatkins is the group to continue with what's here to make this a solid competing team for several more years.

[tazsub3]

There was a time, fans here were making fun of the Orioles. They still have what, another top 4 30 prospects on top of their solid team they have now + whatever free agents they add. I just look at the position this club is in with it's farm team, it's current roster and contracts and think this team needs a new group to sell off and rebuild. With 230m payroll, and several years of holding onto prospects from trades/drafting, it wasn't that hard to make the playoffs, so I don't give much credit for him getting there. Because the Yanks/Red Sox haven't figured things out, we squeaked into the playoffs. That is not going to last. The Orioles now are probably well positioned for at least 5+ years.

 

So look at our roster, the prospects we have coming up, the contracts we have out there (Vlad/BO not signed), and the competition. Ask yourselves if you feel confident Shatkins is the group to continue with what's here to make this a solid competing team for several more years.

 

We had AA, arguably the best GM in baseball, and we let him go cause of what? pure arrogance and complex of inferiority of a new team president.

And to think back in the day, this was the best run team in baseball.

[BigCecil]

Shapiro doesn’t make baseball decisions but if firing him means getting rid of Atkins down I don’t care

 

Trying to understand this honestly. What is a "baseball decision" in your view? Approving a large Free Agent contract for a particular player? Making a trade involving a top prospect asset, which has a monetizable value? Going to the Board to ask for approval for a payroll budget and defending the rational and break down of that budget, and most importantly forecasting? Ross could decide to just move a valuable asset like Tiedemann on his own with no involvement or approval from Shapiro?

 

These are duties of a CEO in a pubco. They are accountable to the Board and ownership. Not Ross or JS. To me those are "baseball decisions". I do believe he isn't involved in a baseball decision to send Bowden back down again, or PH Espy, for example. But the idea that he just runs renos, and isn't very involved in decisions around major investments and asset transactions, major roster decisions vis a vis the team does not seem realistic in my experience with pubcos. Buck stops with him.

[Delgalladay]

Does a guy like this saying it on TV help get him fired?

 

[Olerud363]

Does a guy like this saying it on TV help get him fired?

 

 

The funny thing is, the truth is Jays are not using enough analytics or not using them right. Sid thinks Cito Gaston was the best manager in Jays history.

 

He thinks John Gibbons would not have done that, when he did it with Dicky, and it blew up the exact same way in game 4 2015 ALDS.

 

If Jays scored 1 run instead of 7 that day, that decision would have looked exactly the same. Why bring in a tired Price when Dickey was cruising? In fact at the time it was still blasted in some circles because it made Price unavailable for game 5. If Stroman had blown up, or the Texas Rangers didn't make 3 errors we'd still be hearing about that.

 

I'm not saying I liked the move. I cringed when it happened, but the overall game plan kept the Twins to 2 runs.

 

Offense scored nothing because team is way behind on advanced hitting science in terms of both analytics and coaching.

 

Risky time for the organization, need to go more advanced with the bleeding edge baseball science, not backwards... but guys like Sid could push the organization in the opposite direction it needs to go.

 

Two camps that both think Schneider/Atkins should be fired but for different reasons.

[Krylian]

Does a guy like this saying it on TV help get him fired?

 

 

No. Sid's tirade has more impact on his own career than Jays' management.

[Laika]

The funny thing is, the truth is Jays are not using enough analytics or not using them right. Sid thinks Cito Gaston was the best manager in Jays history.

 

He thinks John Gibbons would not have done that, when he did it with Dicky, and it blew up the exact same way in game 4 2015 ALDS.

 

If Jays scored 1 run instead of 7 that day, that decision would have looked exactly the same. Why bring in a tired Price when Dickey was cruising? In fact at the time it was still blasted in some circles because it made Price unavailable for game 5. If Stroman had blown up, or the Texas Rangers didn't make 3 errors we'd still be hearing about that.

 

I'm not saying I liked the move. I cringed when it happened, but the overall game plan kept the Twins to 2 runs.

 

Offense scored nothing because team is way behind on advanced hitting science in terms of both analytics and coaching.

 

Risky time for the organization, need to go more advanced with the bleeding edge baseball science, not backwards... but guys like Sid could push the organization in the opposite direction it needs to go.

Two camps that both think Schneider/Atkins should be fired but for different reasons.

 

This is exactly the proper point.

 

Many people want JS fired and Atkins fired so the organization can install a more traditional manager and perhaps a more traditional GM?

 

In my head the organization is just a fence sitter. It's not really doing anything in an advanced or progressive way. They have their cool compound and an analytics department and a guy on the MLB staff to try to implement analytics but.... half the league or more has all of that. You need to TAKE RISKS and actually FIND A f***ING EDGE.

 

Toronto needs to commit more to modern baseball. Dump Mattingly, dump everyone who seems like an old baseball mind. Go hire a new MLB hitting coach with a biomechanics/physics degree, straight out of one of those hitting labs. Get him working with some of these hitters all offseason on just hitting f***ing bombs, and recognizing the new pitches like sweepers.

 

Some of these hitters, all season long, looked like they'd never seen a sweeper before. Egregious. Laymen with podcasts knew two years ago that sweepers were the next big pitching development.

[Stangstag]

This is exactly the proper point.

 

Many people want JS fired and Atkins fired so the organization can install a more traditional manager and perhaps a more traditional GM?

 

In my head the organization is just a fence sitter. It's not really doing anything in an advanced or progressive way. They have their cool compound and an analytics department and a guy on the MLB staff to try to implement analytics but.... half the league or more has all of that. You need to TAKE RISKS and actually FIND A f***ING EDGE.

 

Toronto needs to commit more to modern baseball. Dump Mattingly, dump everyone who seems like an old baseball mind. Go hire a new MLB hitting coach with a biomechanics/physics degree, straight out of one of those hitting labs. Get him working with some of these hitters all offseason on just hitting f***ing bombs, and recognizing the new pitches like sweepers.

 

Some of these hitters, all season long, looked like they'd never seen a sweeper before. Egregious. Laymen with podcasts knew two years ago that sweepers were the next big pitching development.

 

Most casuals want JS fired because his bullpen/pitching management. I want him fired because the entire offense underperformed and the players still make stupid mistakes. He’s not getting the best out of these players.

 

We are not the same.

[Krylian]

Most casuals want JS fired because his bullpen/pitching management. I want him fired because the entire offense underperformed and the players still make stupid mistakes. He’s not getting the best out of these players.

 

We are not the same.

 

So the players aren't the problem then? You're ok rolling out the same offence next season?

[Delgalladay]

The funny thing is, the truth is Jays are not using enough analytics or not using them right. Sid thinks Cito Gaston was the best manager in Jays history.

 

He thinks John Gibbons would not have done that, when he did it with Dicky, and it blew up the exact same way in game 4 2015 ALDS.

 

If Jays scored 1 run instead of 7 that day, that decision would have looked exactly the same. Why bring in a tired Price when Dickey was cruising? In fact at the time it was still blasted in some circles because it made Price unavailable for game 5. If Stroman had blown up, or the Texas Rangers didn't make 3 errors we'd still be hearing about that.

 

I'm not saying I liked the move. I cringed when it happened, but the overall game plan kept the Twins to 2 runs.

 

Offense scored nothing because team is way behind on advanced hitting science in terms of both analytics and coaching.

 

Risky time for the organization, need to go more advanced with the bleeding edge baseball science, not backwards... but guys like Sid could push the organization in the opposite direction it needs to go.

 

Two camps that both think Schneider/Atkins should be fired but for different reasons.

 

I 100% agree on Gibbons. People on these boards seem to not remember the things he did.

 

I still don't think you let predetermined analytic decisions override game flow. If that's the plan then just let AI manage the team.

[MikeM3]

This is exactly the proper point.

 

Many people want JS fired and Atkins fired so the organization can install a more traditional manager and perhaps a more traditional GM?

 

In my head the organization is just a fence sitter. It's not really doing anything in an advanced or progressive way. They have their cool compound and an analytics department and a guy on the MLB staff to try to implement analytics but.... half the league or more has all of that. You need to TAKE RISKS and actually FIND A f***ING EDGE.

 

Toronto needs to commit more to modern baseball. Dump Mattingly, dump everyone who seems like an old baseball mind. Go hire a new MLB hitting coach with a biomechanics/physics degree, straight out of one of those hitting labs. Get him working with some of these hitters all offseason on just hitting f***ing bombs, and recognizing the new pitches like sweepers.

 

Some of these hitters, all season long, looked like they'd never seen a sweeper before. Egregious. Laymen with podcasts knew two years ago that sweepers were the next big pitching development.

 

Welcome to the team finally

[MikeM3]

Most casuals want JS fired because his bullpen/pitching management. I want him fired because the entire offense underperformed and the players still make stupid mistakes. He’s not getting the best out of these players.

 

We are not the same.

 

The manager matters way less than the hitting and pitching coaches nowadays

[Laika]

Most casuals want JS fired because his bullpen/pitching management. I want him fired because the entire offense underperformed and the players still make stupid mistakes. He’s not getting the best out of these players.

 

We are not the same.

 

At the end of the day the bullpen/pitching management decisions are minutiae; almost irrelevant.

 

It just doesn't matter if Berrios throws 50, 75, or 120 pitches if all of your hitters look like a deer in headlights 80% of the time and are following the same hitting philosophies that ruined Brett Lawrie's career.

 

Ugh.

[june.june]

A resounding Yes to the OP question

 

8 years and nothing to show for.

 

Rogers and co. should mandate Shapiro to fire him. They provided Ross Atkins the financial resources with ZERO results.

 

Analytics means nothing if you donÂ’t combine it with better baseball common sense.

[The Cats Ass]

The funny thing is, the truth is Jays are not using enough analytics or not using them right. Sid thinks Cito Gaston was the best manager in Jays history.

 

He thinks John Gibbons would not have done that, when he did it with Dicky, and it blew up the exact same way in game 4 2015 ALDS.

 

If Jays scored 1 run instead of 7 that day, that decision would have looked exactly the same. Why bring in a tired Price when Dickey was cruising? In fact at the time it was still blasted in some circles because it made Price unavailable for game 5. If Stroman had blown up, or the Texas Rangers didn't make 3 errors we'd still be hearing about that.

 

I'm not saying I liked the move. I cringed when it happened, but the overall game plan kept the Twins to 2 runs.

 

Offense scored nothing because team is way behind on advanced hitting science in terms of both analytics and coaching.

 

Risky time for the organization, need to go more advanced with the bleeding edge baseball science, not backwards... but guys like Sid could push the organization in the opposite direction it needs to go.

 

Two camps that both think Schneider/Atkins should be fired but for different reasons.

 

You keep bringing up the Dickey scenario. It's not exactly the same thing. Dickey had given up a run already, had thrown more pitches, and was a knuckleballer that was about to go through the order for a 3rd time.

[Governator]

The reaction of this board is hilarious.

 

Shatkins are able to at least sign legit free agents for once who've been very durable and panned out as they hoped. The ones talking about AA like he's some God, had to trade for players with huge risks with a very limited window of opportunity, huge financial commitments (Thanks Tulo) because no one except disgraced Melky Cabrera would sign here in the offseason. Whatever they are doing, they at least are able to build a f***ing team with the dollars given to them. Like it's their fault Vlad sucked balls all season or Springer wasn't Springer. No one predicted the offense would crumble like pie all season.

 

One thing is for sure though, Schneider looked like a fool again and I have no problem if he gets fired.

[BTS]

It's hard to point to more than a handful of transactions that Atkins made that didn't work out. Hard to pinpoint specific reasons why a new GM would be expected to do better. It seems like the team isn't actually at the cutting edge of anything, especially related to development. And not to put too much stock into a single event, but yesterday's Berrios hook seems to be the result of a misuse of analytics. None of the smartest teams in the league pull a starter like Berrios when they did yesterday.

 

Tough situation. They won 89 games even though their franchise payer showed up fat and lazy and didn't contribute much of anything. Things are mostly working. The lesson here isn't what people like Sid Seixeiro seem to want: to hire a Kenny Williams and let the GM and field manager trust their guts.

[John_Havok]

It's hard to point to more than a handful of transactions that Atkins made that didn't work out. Hard to pinpoint specific reasons why a new GM would be expected to do better. It seems like the team isn't actually at the cutting edge of anything, especially related to development. And not to put too much stock into a single event, but yesterday's Berrios hook seems to be the result of a misuse of analytics. None of the smartest teams in the league pull a starter like Berrios when they did yesterday.

 

Tough situation. They won 89 games even though their franchise payer showed up fat and lazy and didn't contribute much of anything. Things are mostly working. The lesson here isn't what people like Sid Seixeiro seem to want: to hire a Kenny Williams and let the GM and field manager trust their guts.

 

Firstly, I'll say I didn't agree with the hook but it doesn't show a misuse of analytics. Analytically it was the right move to get a lefty facing Lefty's as Berrios splits vs lhb wasn't great. In a vacuum it was the right call.

 

But it was still wrong.

[tazsub3]

The reaction of this board is hilarious.

 

Shatkins are able to at least sign legit free agents for once who've been very durable and panned out as they hoped. The ones talking about AA like he's some God, had to trade for players with huge risks with a very limited window of opportunity, huge financial commitments (Thanks Tulo) because no one except disgraced Melky Cabrera would sign here in the offseason. Whatever they are doing, they at least are able to build a f***ing team with the dollars given to them. Like it's their fault Vlad sucked balls all season or Springer wasn't Springer. No one predicted the offense would crumble like pie all season.

 

One thing is for sure though, Schneider looked like a fool again and I have no problem if he gets fired.

 

they dont know how to manage or win a playoff game.

AA already has a world series and the best team in baseball in case you missed it

[Stangstag]

Firstly, I'll say I didn't agree with the hook but it doesn't show a misuse of analytics. Analytically it was the right move to get a lefty facing Lefty's as Berrios splits vs lhb wasn't great. In a vacuum it was the right call.

 

But it was still wrong.

 

They did the exact same thing in the 2020 series with Tampa. Matt Shoemaker coasting, they pulled him after first time through the order and put in Robbie Ray, who proceeded to give up a triple and let in a run.

 

They lost that game 3-1. Eeerily similar.

 

Something is f***ed with this group, whether its Vlad/Bo, the coaching staff, or the front office. Can’t keep just chalking things up to “Bad Luck”. Something is rotten here.

[hanton]

They did the exact same thing in the 2020 series with Tampa. Matt Shoemaker coasting, they pulled him after first time through the order and put in Robbie Ray, who proceeded to give up a triple and let in a run.

 

They lost that game 3-1. Eeerily similar.

 

Something is f***ed with this group, whether its Vlad/Bo, the coaching staff, or the front office. Can’t keep just chalking things up to “Bad Luck”. Something is rotten here.

 

ah.... The FO is f***ed

[John_Havok]

They did the exact same thing in the 2020 series with Tampa. Matt Shoemaker coasting, they pulled him after first time through the order and put in Robbie Ray, who proceeded to give up a triple and let in a run.

 

They lost that game 3-1. Eeerily similar.

 

Something is f***ed with this group, whether its Vlad/Bo, the coaching staff, or the front office. Can’t keep just chalking things up to “Bad Luck”. Something is rotten here.

 

Well, im sure if people looked they could find plenty of examples of "early" hooks that paid off just as well. Again, not defending this move, just saying its far easier to remember s*** that went wrong vs right because things going right is what's supposed to happen, it doesn't stand out.

 

The reason Bautista's HR is that much more memorable and legendary isnt because he hit a HR to take the lead in a playoff game, but because of the comedy of errors that occured the entire inning leading up to it.

 

Encarnacion walked off the Orioles in a series and his HR isn't spoke of with near the status of Bautista's.

[Stangstag]

Well, im sure if people looked they could find plenty of examples of "early" hooks that paid off just as well. Again, not defending this move, just saying its far easier to remember s*** that went wrong vs right because things going right is what's supposed to happen, it doesn't stand out.

 

The reason Bautista's HR is that much more memorable and legendary isnt because he hit a HR to take the lead in a playoff game, but because of the comedy of errors that occured the entire inning leading up to it.

 

Encarnacion walked off the Orioles in a series and his HR isn't spoke of with near the status of Bautista's.

 

When have we actually done anything right in the Shatkins era though? Its 3 postseason appearances in a row now where questionable in-game decisions have cost us.

 

2020

- the Shoemaker/Ray thing

- leaving Ryu on the mound to die in game 2

 

2022

- pulling Gausman in favor of Mayza

- Tapia into the game instead of JBJ

 

2023

- pulling Berrios early

- never giving Schneider a PH opportunity

[Olerud363]

When have we actually done anything right in the Shatkins era though? Its 3 postseason appearances in a row now where questionable in-game decisions have cost us.

- never giving Schneider a PH opportunity

 

I'm actually totally confused as to what is behind their Espinal instead of Schneider decision.

 

It makes we wonder what analytical system is flagging Espinal as a better bet to get on base or have an extra base hit than Schneider?

 

So maybe it isn't analytics in this case, just old school coaches thinking the kid who strikes out a ton has a hole in his swing.

 

Got to think analytics goes to the guy who walks and hits homers. So do the coach's override the analytics in the Schneider vs Espinal case but not Berrios out after 3?

[Terminator]

I'm actually totally confused as to what is behind their Espinal instead of Schneider decision.

 

It makes we wonder what analytical system is flagging Espinal as a better bet to get on base or have an extra base hit than Schneider?

 

So maybe it isn't analytics in this case, just old school coaches thinking the kid who strikes out a ton has a hole in his swing.

 

Got to think analytics goes to the guy who walks and hits homers. So do the coach's override the analytics in the Schneider vs Espinal case but not Berrios out after 3?

 

There has to be something in the profiles that makes them think Espinal is better suited for pinch hitting. Perhaps they feel his low K rate gives him a chance to hit a single whereas with Schneider since he already strikes out a lot, if you apply the pinch hitting penalty to him (pinch hitters are about 20% worse on average I believe), it makes him a pretty poor pinch hitter?

[Omar]

I don't want a return to traditional baseball management and I don't think most posters here want that either (except for a few Gibbons fans). What I do want is a skipper who has the self confidence and fortitude to react to what his eyes are telling him and not go into a post game presser and make excuses because he has a low forehead and can't see the forest from the trees. He claims they have been working on base running since February. Well whatever Schneider and his coaches are doing isn't working. John Schneider doesn't have the respect of the casual fan base much less his own players. The look on the faces of the players when that pitching change was made yesterday spoke volumes. Schneider headed out to the mound red faced with embarrassment and called for lefty before taking five steps out of the dugout. Why? Because he knew any conversation with the pitcher and catcher would result in him having no answers. Man up Schneider or f*** off! This isn't AAA.

 

As for Atkins, I have always been a supporter but after yesterday and his last two manager hiring choices I have serious doubts about his ability to make thoughtful personnel decisions about his coaching staff. Atkins isn't the smartest guy in the room but he thinks he is. The Dunning-Kruger effect seems to permeate this organization and it starts with Atkins. So yes, I changed my tune and now believe he has to go as well.

 

For further clarification see my post about the dangers of a bozo explosion because that is what we have here in Toronto.

[hanton]

I'm actually totally confused as to what is behind their Espinal instead of Schneider decision.

 

It makes we wonder what analytical system is flagging Espinal as a better bet to get on base or have an extra base hit than Schneider?

 

So maybe it isn't analytics in this case, just old school coaches thinking the kid who strikes out a ton has a hole in his swing.

 

Got to think analytics goes to the guy who walks and hits homers. So do the coach's override the analytics in the Schneider vs Espinal case but not Berrios out after 3?

 

Yes exactly.

 

We will never know for sure, teams (or at least some do, the Jays for sure do) use proprietary models based on publicly available data, but how good are those models.

[Brownie19]

I'm actually totally confused as to what is behind their Espinal instead of Schneider decision.

 

It makes we wonder what analytical system is flagging Espinal as a better bet to get on base or have an extra base hit than Schneider?

 

So maybe it isn't analytics in this case, just old school coaches thinking the kid who strikes out a ton has a hole in his swing.

 

Got to think analytics goes to the guy who walks and hits homers. So do the coach's override the analytics in the Schneider vs Espinal case but not Berrios out after 3?

 

Schneider was 2 for his last 39. It was probably as easy as that unless you felt that meant "he was due".

[Stangstag]

Schneider was 2 for his last 39. It was probably as easy as that unless you felt that meant "he was due".

 

I thought you loved to condemn small sample sizes??