Fire John Schneider

[goldbug103]

Yeah, and clearly he sucks at his job. It’s Dave Hudgens.

 

Fire Atkins makes more sense here.

[JaysAllMighty]

I feel like this is when the players start to lose respect for the manager. Dumb mistakes that the players can catch but the Manager doesn’t.

 

 

It may be awkward for Schneider to reprimand a player in the future for his lack of focus.

[goldbug103]

I meant Atkins and Hudgens. Firing the current manager makes no sense really. Was already done mid way through the past season.

[glory]

The issue is outside of Manoah they haven't acquired, traded for and developed much talent from their losing cycle 2017-2019.

 

Vlad was signed in 2015, Jansen drafted in 2014, Bo, Kirk, Moreno signed/drafted in 2016. Gurriel in 2017.

 

Stroman trade was useless. 5th overall pick became useless. Pillar/Donaldson traded too late. None of the little trades they made at the deadline (other than Hernandez in 2017) got much of use I don't think.

 

If they had won 110 games a year from 2017 to 2019 Manoah wouldn't be here, but other than that not sure anything would be different about the team. Even the Chapman trade was done with assetts a winning team could have.

 

So there was no rebuild. This team is made of players acquired during the 2 ALCS years basically, and free agents vet-trades. No 'rebuild' type moves have worked at all.

 

Agreed on all of this. It's actually somewhat impressive that the team has been this good for a couple of years now given how it was put together. Basically the antithesis of building a sustainable contender. They got nothing in return for the departing 2015-16 core, and the drafting/international signings post 2017 have mostly been awful aside from Manoah. The 2nd best player the Jays have drafted from 2017-onwards is probably Ryan Noda at this point. Hopefully Tiedemann changes that but pitching prospects are the hardest to count on.

 

Schneider and Montoyo have a bunch of things in common (not in a good way) but the biggest thing they have in common is the biggest issue, and that is they were hired by the same guy/front office. That's where the real issue is.

[BigCecil]

The issue is outside of Manoah they haven't acquired, traded for and developed much talent from their losing cycle 2017-2019.

 

Vlad was signed in 2015, Jansen drafted in 2014, Bo, Kirk, Moreno signed/drafted in 2016. Gurriel in 2017.

 

Stroman trade was useless. 5th overall pick became useless. Pillar/Donaldson traded too late. None of the little trades they made at the deadline (other than Hernandez in 2017) got much of use I don't think.

 

If they had won 110 games a year from 2017 to 2019 Manoah wouldn't be here, but other than that not sure anything would be different about the team. Even the Chapman trade was done with assetts a winning team could have.

 

So there was no rebuild. This team is made of players acquired during the 2 ALCS years basically, and free agents vet-trades. No 'rebuild' type moves have worked at all.

 

LGJ signed in late '16 too. Spent time as IF on our ML AA & AAA over 3 seasons 17-19 coming from Cuba. But ya this assessment is kind of hard to argue with.

[John_Havok]

LGJ signed in late '16 too. Spent time as IF on our ML AA & AAA over 3 seasons 17-19 coming from Cuba. But ya this assessment is kind of hard to argue with.

 

Just so people don’t forget every trade, here’s a list of all of them from 2015/16 off-season up to 2019/20 under Atkins.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/04/gm-trade-history-blue-jays-ross-atkins.html

 

They are largely inconsequential moves.

 

The big ones are obviously the Hutchison trade for Liriano which turn into the Liriano trade for Teoscar. Win and win.

The Osuna deal for Giles. Win

Grichuk acquired. push? Spare parts used to get him but then he was good, then sucked then traded for a baby giraffe.

Donaldson traded for Merriweather. Loss.

The Stroman deal. Loss.

 

The underrated move in there was getting Samad Taylor in the Joe Smith trade, since Taylor was used to bring in Merrifield.

 

Realistically the rest of those trades were all in the retooling phase just trying to keep a .500ish team on the field and selling aging vets with no real use for any minor leaguers he could to try and hit the lotto.

 

Gotta remember they were never going to go full tank for 5 seasons playing .290-.400 ball like Baltimore did instead. This market would never accept that kind of ongoing dumpster fire

[BigCecil]

Just so people don’t forget every trade, here’s a list of all of them from 2015/16 off-season up to 2019/20 under Atkins.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/04/gm-trade-history-blue-jays-ross-atkins.html

 

They are largely inconsequential moves.

 

The big ones are obviously the Hutchison trade for Liriano which turn into the Liriano trade for Teoscar. Win and win.

The Osuna deal for Giles. Win

Grichuk acquired. push? Spare parts used to get him but then he was good, then sucked then traded for a baby giraffe.

Donaldson traded for Merriweather. Loss.

The Stroman deal. Loss.

 

The underrated move in there was getting Samad Taylor in the Joe Smith trade, since Taylor was used to bring in Merrifield.

 

Realistically the rest of those trades were all in the retooling phase just trying to keep a .500ish team on the field and selling aging vets with no real use for any minor leaguers he could to try and hit the lotto.

 

Gotta remember they were never going to go full tank for 5 seasons playing .290-.400 ball like Baltimore did instead. This market would never accept that kind of ongoing dumpster fire

 

Until fans were reinvigorated nationally in 15 & 16 we hadn't been in the post season since 1993 and the franchise put up with a lot of lean years in the wilderness. Some pretty bad teams.

 

Agreed that it would take a ton of intestinal fortitude and a real plan from owners/FO, but it could have been a realistic option if you had a clear idea what it would ultimately result in, and communicated that well to fans. We kinda went with a half pregnant approach. Its a tough one for sure.

 

Hard to believe we faced off in WC 2016 and here we are in '23 where it all ended up. Who is in a better spot going forward?

[Stangstag]

Until fans were reinvigorated nationally in 15 & 16 we hadn't been in the post season since 1993 and the franchise put up with a lot of lean years in the wilderness. Some pretty bad teams.

 

Agreed that it would take a ton of intestinal fortitude and a real plan from owners/FO, but it could have been a realistic option if you had a clear idea what it would ultimately result in, and communicated that well to fans. We kinda went with a half pregnant approach. Its a tough one for sure.

 

Hard to believe we faced off in WC 2016 and here we are in '23 where it all ended up. Who is in a better spot going forward?

 

Its hard to argue the Orioles aren’t in a better spot going forward, but the Jays had chances in 2021 and 2022 when the Orioles weren’t good enough to compete yet.

 

If we made a deep run in 2021 or 2022 are we looking at this period as a failure?? Idk just had bad breaks both years. We wasted 2 seasons of great teams. Now we’ll have to battle it out with the rest of the AL East teams and it will definitely be harder.

 

Also I’m not convinced the Orioles will actually sign any significant free agent pitchers so they won’t be as good as they could be. Angelos is a hack

[BigCecil]

Its hard to argue the Orioles aren’t in a better spot going forward, but the Jays had chances in 2021 and 2022 when the Orioles weren’t good enough to compete yet.

 

If we made a deep run in 2021 or 2022 are we looking at this period as a failure?? Idk just had bad breaks both years. We wasted 2 seasons of great teams. Now we’ll have to battle it out with the rest of the AL East teams and it will definitely be harder.

 

Also I’m not convinced the Orioles will actually sign any significant free agent pitchers so they won’t be as good as they could be. Angelos is a hack

 

Fair points. From a business perspective only the route the FO has gone, aside from the payroll cost increase of free agents and Arb years, may have been better for owners and fans. We put "competitive" product on the field making the short season post season during covid, missed playoffs by a game, made playoffs and lost wildcard last year. That keeps bums in seats and eyeballs even if it can feel like a sugar high after. Will it be sustainable? That remains to be seen.

 

Deeper runs in the playoffs definitely give an impression of more success and affect perceptions. Jose's bat flip, Edwins wild card walk off and Donaldson's dash slide at home on the wild throw to beat TEX (again) are burned into Jay's lore. Also Navarro and Revere getting f***ed by Nelson in '15. Allowed us to blame the ump & not the players.

 

If we don't blow game 2 and come back to beat SEA in '22 for a real run, we are probably taking about Teo's 2 home runs as the turning point for a long time. Some have the view once you get in its all luck. Its plays a big role but its not just luck IMO.

[BlueBaller]

What was the use in starting the runner there?

[Terminator]

What was the use in starting the runner there?

 

It's a 3-2 count with a double play candidate at the dish. You definitely want to start the runner. It was Belt's fault for whiffing on a meatball.

[Stangstag]

Fair points. From a business perspective only the route the FO has gone, aside from the payroll cost increase of free agents and Arb years, may have been better for owners and fans. We put "competitive" product on the field making the short season post season during covid, missed playoffs by a game, made playoffs and lost wildcard last year. That keeps bums in seats and eyeballs even if it can feel like a sugar high after. Will it be sustainable? That remains to be seen.

 

Deeper runs in the playoffs definitely give an impression of more success and affect perceptions. Jose's bat flip, Edwins wild card walk off and Donaldson's dash slide at home on the wild throw to beat TEX (again) are burned into Jay's lore. Also Navarro and Revere getting f***ed by Nelson in '15. Allowed us to blame the ump & not the players.

 

If we don't blow game 2 and come back to beat SEA in '22 for a real run, we are probably taking about Teo's 2 home runs as the turning point for a long time. Some have the view once you get in its all luck. Its plays a big role but its not just luck IMO.

 

Yeah like if those teams had lost to Texas in 2015 and then Orioles in the wildcard, do we look at AA as favorably? Hell no.

 

That could have been the 2021 and 2022 jays but it just wasn’t in the stars. Maybe we get those moments in 2023/2024.

[tossingthiscoin]

This guy should go. Simple as it is.

[Olerud363]

This guy should go. Simple as it is.

 

They aren't firing their second manager in 1 year without a major organizational changes. If it is bad enough to fire Schneider, they need to fire Atkins and very carefully choose the right replacement.

 

The best time to Fire Atkins is right now. New guy shouldn't fire Schneider until end of year. New guy needs to be in their right now to prepare for trade deadline stuff and draft. Then after taking care of those two go on to manager, coaching staff, high performance team.

 

I don't see them firing Atkins until end of year, so no way they fire Schneider. Sucks that they won't fire Atkins tonight, as now he'll be doing draft and trade deadline and his crappy low performance team will be in charge of development the rest of the year.

[Terminator]

Yeah it's hard to see where Atkins is the one firing Schneider. The two are linked at this point.

 

I guess it could be a hail mary play by Atkins where in order to save his own job he rolls the dice by firing Schneider and hoping for a deep playoff run by Mattingly. So maybe he could as a desperation move? But if he does he's basically signaling his own demise.

[Buster]

I think the FO is doing what ownership wants. Maximize area under the curve for revenue over the long term. World series is a nice-to-have outcome

[Daniel Labude]

Fire the hitting coach first!!!

[polar bear]

No way Atkins fires another manager in season. It would make him (Atkins) look like a complete incompetent.

 

But that’s exactly what he is.

[TorontonianJD]

This team is in shambles.

 

How much longer will Ed Rogers put up with it is the question.

[Jonn]

This team is in shambles.

 

How much longer will Ed Rogers put up with it is the question.

 

I doubt he gives a f*** lol. He gave complete Baseball autonomy to Shapiro. And there was 41k in the seats most of the weekend and the TV Numbers are great so he doesn't have a lot to be concerned with.

[goldbug103]

This team is in shambles.

 

How much longer will Ed Rogers put up with it is the question.

 

The Leafs are in an even greater shambles with no GM or plan to get one. Total incompetence. Ironically Atkins sort of resembles Dubas. Anyone have news on Ricky T or Addison Barger ? It would be nice to get some fresh faces on the MLB team.

[wilko]

#bringbackcitofor3rdtime

[Terminator]

#bringbackcitofor3rdtime

 

Even better let's bring back Gibby for the 3rd time

[Slade]

Even better let's bring back Gibby for the 3rd time

 

I support this.

[Olerud363]

#bringbackcitofor3rdtime

 

He's like 80 isn't he. Pull dat ball. Might work. Vlad, Bo, Chapman, Springer, Kirk, Jansen, Varsho PULL THAT f***ING BALL. None of these little loopers the other way. (credit to Laika he wrote a big essay on 'pull dat ball' last year when the offense looked downb. Not sure I buy it, at least if it comes with a .300 team on base percentage, but might be better than what we are seeing right now).

[John_Havok]

Even better let's bring back Gibby for the 3rd time

 

Id be on board, unfortunately Gibby has pretty much stated he knows he wouldn't fit in today's game with a lot of the numbers and direction on which moves to make and when coming from above.

[glory]

 

Jomboy adding to the Schneider slander and I’m here for all of it.

[Terminator]

Id be on board, unfortunately Gibby has pretty much stated he knows he wouldn't fit in today's game with a lot of the numbers and direction on which moves to make and when coming from above.

 

He's got one last ride in him. I believe.

[Omar]

 

Jomboy adding to the Schneider slander and I’m here for all of it.

 

Those pricks are Yankee fans.

[leaffie]

Those pricks are Yankee fans.

 

 

Yankee fans are obsessed with Jays. Read their reddit once in awhile, and even when they arent playing the Jays they are still mouthing off.