Toronto Blue Jays Roster Discussion (2022)

[Carlos Danger]

Dream offseason of all offseasons: Trade Lourdes or Teo + Kirk +++ for Ohtani, sign Trea Turner, move Bo to 2B & sign Nimmo and resign Strip.

 

It's only $. f***ing load up for the season with the new renos.

 

Turner

Nimmo

Vlad

Ohtani

Springer

Bo

Teo/Pina

Chapman

Jansen

 

I'd blow my load

 

Can any of those guys pitch?

 

We need:

 

Pitching

Pitching

Pitching

Pitching

and

Pitching

Edited October 19, 2022 by Carlos Danger

[Terminator]

Can any if those guys pitch?

 

We need:

 

Pitching

Pitching

Pitching

Pitching

and

Pitching

 

Believe it or not that Ohtani guy is a pretty damn good pitcher

[RobinThicc]

I wonder if Bauer opts out of his 17M guarantee, just to pitch with someone else.

 

Bauer is done in the mlb

[John_Havok]

No reason to move Teoscar.

 

A good hitter in the final year of his contract. That's the kind of player you want on your roster in a contending year.

 

Sure, there's no NEED to move him, but if you're going to move a guy or two to open up payroll space for other acquisitions or what have you, then guys like him and Jansen fit the bill perfectly.

[John_Havok]

Bauer is done in the mlb

 

Too bad, he's great for the game.

[Krylian]

Bauer is done in the mlb

 

I was certain he'd be back, but it is really looking like we've seen the last of him. Very surprising considering all the other pieces of s*** that have been allowed to return to Pro Sports after misdeeds.

[John_Havok]

I was certain he'd be back, but it is really looking like we've seen the last of him. Very surprising considering all the other pieces of s*** that have been allowed to return to Pro Sports after misdeeds.

 

MLB probably has a hate on for him for exposing the whole "sticky stuff" shenanigans. I cant even fathom how this whole process has played out based on the information that is known about his suspension. Granted, we don't know everything, and likely never will... so either 1 of two things is true.

 

1. It's way way way way way worse than we realize and he may actually be the scum of the earth.

 

or,

 

2. It's nowhere near as bad as it was made out to be and MLB is incredibly worried about how to spin such a long suspension for a guy who consensually choked someone during sex.

[Jimcanuck]

MLB probably has a hate on for him for exposing the whole "sticky stuff" shenanigans. I cant even fathom how this whole process has played out based on the information that is known about his suspension. Granted, we don't know everything, and likely never will... so either 1 of two things is true.

 

1. It's way way way way way worse than we realize and he may actually be the scum of the earth.

 

or,

 

2. It's nowhere near as bad as it was made out to be and MLB is incredibly worried about how to spin such a long suspension for a guy who consensually choked someone during sex.

 

If it's 2, he'd be pitching. MLB doesn't want a messy court case for millions and millions in damages.

[Jimcanuck]

Actually there may well be negotiations between Bauer camp and MLB where "in consideration of" the two sides part ways.

[Captain_Obvious]

Some posters are missing the obvious, so let me help by stating it:

1- Teoscar trade value is minimal. While his offense is good, his defense is well below average in RF. He is 30 and has 1 year of control. Given the 14M-15M price tag, you will not get anything of high value for him.

2- Gurriel's value is even lower than Teoscar's. Over 500 PA last year, he was a 1-WAR slap-hitting LF with terrible defense and base-running. People complaining about Tapia should not forget about Gurriel.

3- Danny Jansen has been the best offensive play on the Blue Jays for the past 1.5 years. The sample size is getting pretty large too. Since June 1st, 2021 he has compiled 158 wRC+. In 2022, he "only" produced 140 wRC+ which still topped the team. People wanting to dump him are as clueless as the Blue Jays org was when they were using him part-time and hitting him 8th behind Tapia. Unless you get a true all-star with similar years of control back, you just don't trade him.

4- Upgrading CF also upgrades RF and LF by rotating the existing OFs and removing Gurriel from there. This will also improve run prevention given they were 27th in OF defense last year.

[Laika]

Some posters are missing the obvious, so let me help by stating it:

1- Teoscar trade value is minimal. While his offense is good, his defense is well below average in RF. He is 30 and has 1 year of control. Given the 14M-15M price tag, you will not get anything of high value for him.

2- Gurriel's value is even lower than Teoscar's. Over 500 PA last year, he was a 1-WAR slap-hitting LF with terrible defense and base-running. People complaining about Tapia should not forget about Gurriel.

3- Danny Jansen has been the best offensive play on the Blue Jays for the past 1.5 years. The sample size is getting pretty large too. Since June 1st, 2021 he has compiled 158 wRC+. In 2022, he "only" produced 140 wRC+ which still topped the team. People wanting to dump him are as clueless as the Blue Jays org was when they were using him part-time and hitting him 8th behind Tapia. Unless you get a true all-star with similar years of control back, you just don't trade him.

4- Upgrading CF also upgrades RF and LF by rotating the existing OFs and removing Gurriel from there. This will also improve run prevention given they were 27th in OF defense last year.

 

1. I think most people know this and it was even stated recently by others

2. Yeah the posters who think Toronto can trade Gurriel for much of anything are kind of out to lunch. They could trade him for a SP but it would be a #5 type with 1 year of control, probably.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.

 

Also, they were 27th maybe by some of the fancy stats but they were also #1 in outfield shifting. This creates a weird dynamic because good positioning can actually hurt a player's metrics, sometimes, given how catch rates are figured out with some of the stats. Just mentioning this. But yeah the outfield defense is not great obviously - Tapia sucked, Springer is just a competent CF at best, Gurriel is a statue, Teoscar sucks.

[John_Havok]

Some posters are missing the obvious, so let me help by stating it:

1- Teoscar trade value is minimal. While his offense is good, his defense is well below average in RF. He is 30 and has 1 year of control. Given the 14M-15M price tag, you will not get anything of high value for him.

2- Gurriel's value is even lower than Teoscar's. Over 500 PA last year, he was a 1-WAR slap-hitting LF with terrible defense and base-running. People complaining about Tapia should not forget about Gurriel.

3- Danny Jansen has been the best offensive play on the Blue Jays for the past 1.5 years. The sample size is getting pretty large too. Since June 1st, 2021 he has compiled 158 wRC+. In 2022, he "only" produced 140 wRC+ which still topped the team. People wanting to dump him are as clueless as the Blue Jays org was when they were using him part-time and hitting him 8th behind Tapia. Unless you get a true all-star with similar years of control back, you just don't trade him.

4- Upgrading CF also upgrades RF and LF by rotating the existing OFs and removing Gurriel from there. This will also improve run prevention given they were 27th in OF defense last year.

 

1. I dont think anyone has suggested Teo will bring back massive value in trade.

2. I would rather play Gurriel any day of the week over Tapia. At least Gurriel has some power in there he can tap into again if he pulls his head out of his ass.

3. No s***. But hitching your wagon to a catcher as an offensive centerpiece that isn't the next Buster Posey isn't ideal either. And since Kirk would replace like 90% of the offense of Jansen for far less money, trading Jansen (while not ideal) COULD actually improve the team if you land say... a CF in return.

4. See #3.

 

The biggest mistake any armchair GM makes is that you should never trade anyone at their peak, and also never trade anyone that won't return a landslide of better players. Trading a guy to free up cash has value. Doesnt mean you sell him for peanuts and filling the vending machine of course... just saying.

[Captain_Obvious]

1. I dont think anyone has suggested Teo will bring back massive value in trade.

2. I would rather play Gurriel any day of the week over Tapia. At least Gurriel has some power in there he can tap into again if he pulls his head out of his ass.

3. No s***. But hitching your wagon to a catcher as an offensive centerpiece that isn't the next Buster Posey isn't ideal either. And since Kirk would replace like 90% of the offense of Jansen for far less money, trading Jansen (while not ideal) COULD actually improve the team if you land say... a CF in return.

4. See #3.

 

The biggest mistake any armchair GM makes is that you should never trade anyone at their peak, and also never trade anyone that won't return a landslide of better players. Trading a guy to free up cash has value. Doesnt mean you sell him for peanuts and filling the vending machine of course... just saying.

 

1- He will not bring back any value beside lottery tickets.

2- Gurriel's power has been declining every year and has completely disappeared at this point. If you're looking to save money, this is where you start. Unloading him for pretty much nothing is still valuable. Otto Lopez will very likely produce more value.

3- Who is this CF do you think the Blue Jays should target if they are trading Jansen?

[Laika]

1- He will not bring back any value beside lottery tickets.

2- Gurriel's power has been declining every year and has completely disappeared at this point. If you're looking to save money, this is where you start. Unloading him for pretty much nothing is still valuable. Otto Lopez will very likely produce more value.

3- Who is this CF do you think the Blue Jays should target if they are trading Jansen?

 

Gurriel's power did not go away because of physical decline. He changed his approach.

 

That matters for trade value.

 

He's probably not worth much sure but somewhere there is a hitting coach who thinks they can make him a .300/.350 hitter with power.

 

I would not just dump Gurriel. That makes no sense. He's a useful player... just maybe not a guy who needs 100% playing time in LF.

[John_Havok]

1- He will not bring back any value beside lottery tickets.

2- Gurriel's power has been declining every year and has completely disappeared at this point. If you're looking to save money, this is where you start. Unloading him for pretty much nothing is still valuable. Otto Lopez will very likely produce more value.

3- Who is this CF do you think the Blue Jays should target if they are trading Jansen?

 

Teo has more value than lottery tickets. Its not high, but it's not dumpster value either.

Gurriel has consciously (for some f***ed up reason) moved away from his power swing in favor of an all fields approach. As soon as someone can talk him back into not being a doorknob, he'll produce again. Guys like Espinal should be spray hitters. Gurriel should be trying to do damage.

3. Don;t know of any specific names and it wouldnt evne have to be a CF, just saying that trading Jansen in return for an area of need, while only losing a fraction of the offense at the C spot is not a bad idea.

 

I miss the 2020 Gurriel Jr...

[Jimcanuck]

Hell no to sell low on Gurriel

 

He's prime rebound material

 

Teo a different matter, looking at his career numbers 2021 may have been his high water mark, and 2022 is closer to what we can expect going forward on the wrong side of 30

[John_Havok]

Hell no to sell low on Gurriel

 

He's prime rebound material

 

Teo a different matter, looking at his career numbers 2021 may have been his high water mark, and 2022 is closer to what we can expect going forward on the wrong side of 30

 

I think there's still alot to like about Teo's profile, though the K rate increasing would be a bit of a concern.

 

 

vs

 

[Jimcanuck]

Tough call with Teo but it's unlikely the Jays will resign, best to move before he walks for nothing

[Captain_Obvious]

Teo has more value than lottery tickets. Its not high, but it's not dumpster value either.

Gurriel has consciously (for some f***ed up reason) moved away from his power swing in favor of an all fields approach. As soon as someone can talk him back into not being a doorknob, he'll produce again. Guys like Espinal should be spray hitters. Gurriel should be trying to do damage.

3. Don;t know of any specific names and it wouldnt evne have to be a CF, just saying that trading Jansen in return for an area of need, while only losing a fraction of the offense at the C spot is not a bad idea.

 

I miss the 2020 Gurriel Jr...

 

If Teoscar was cheaper, maybe. If I were the other team, I would not give anything besides lottery tickets. 15M is a lot of money to take on for a player projected for 2 WAR in 2023.

 

For Gurriel, other teams will not care why he is sucking. If you're getting a CF, Gurriel will be the one sitting on the bench anyways. Also, given his base running and defense, you can find much cheaper replacements.

 

The problem with trading Jansen is that you will not get his true full value back. He has been injured (some due to bad luck HBP), and the Jays org has been so f***ing stupid in using him when healthy by playing him every other game, including not using him as DH except a handful of times despite being the best offensive player. They also batted him 8th reducing the amount of ABs he got. He is likely to produce a 5+ WAR season on another team that knows how to utilize him. The Blue Jays would be better served by trading Kirk for a CF with similar value and years of control as Kirk's value is unlikely to increase beyond what it currently is. Kirk might be able to fetch something like Varsho or Thomas from Arizona. I can't think of a reasonable Jansen trade that improves the team as much.

[Captain_Obvious]

Hell no to sell low on Gurriel

 

He's prime rebound material

 

Teo a different matter, looking at his career numbers 2021 may have been his high water mark, and 2022 is closer to what we can expect going forward on the wrong side of 30

 

Gurriel is yet to reach 2 WAR in a season, and he is getting worse. He sucks.

[Omar]

Some posters are missing the obvious, so let me help by stating it:

1- Teoscar trade value is minimal. While his offense is good, his defense is well below average in RF. He is 30 and has 1 year of control. Given the 14M-15M price tag, you will not get anything of high value for him.

2- Gurriel's value is even lower than Teoscar's. Over 500 PA last year, he was a 1-WAR slap-hitting LF with terrible defense and base-running. People complaining about Tapia should not forget about Gurriel.

3- Danny Jansen has been the best offensive play on the Blue Jays for the past 1.5 years. The sample size is getting pretty large too. Since June 1st, 2021 he has compiled 158 wRC+. In 2022, he "only" produced 140 wRC+ which still topped the team. People wanting to dump him are as clueless as the Blue Jays org was when they were using him part-time and hitting him 8th behind Tapia. Unless you get a true all-star with similar years of control back, you just don't trade him.

4- Upgrading CF also upgrades RF and LF by rotating the existing OFs and removing Gurriel from there. This will also improve run prevention given they were 27th in OF defense last year.

 

So....

 

Teoscar has minimal trade value, so don't trade him.

Gurriel is worse than Teo, so don't trade him cause he has even less value than Teo.

Jansen is good so don't trade him.

Upgrade CF so you can upgrade RF/LF by "removing Gurriel" (move him to the grounds crew cause he has no trade value).

[Terminator]

Maybe the Astros could be a good fit for Jansen. What about this?

 

 

Gets us a #5 SP but I also checked the boxes for a "swing and miss" reliever as well as an elite defensive CF. I apologize that the CFer doesn't also bat left-handed; I know that's incredibly important to everyone but I promise it doesn't matter as much as you think.

 

I also apologize for trading board favorite Craig Biggio's son but I also promise you that he's not very good.

[Captain_Obvious]

So....

 

Teoscar has minimal trade value, so don't trade him.

Gurriel is worse than Teo, so don't trade him cause he has even less value than Teo.

Jansen is good so don't trade him.

Upgrade CF so you can upgrade RF/LF by "removing Gurriel" (move him to the grounds crew cause he has no trade value).

 

Don't trade Teo because it will not result in improving the team long-term or short-term.

 

Dump Gurriel for meh prospects and save 5M

 

Keeping Jansen and trading Kirk is likely to improve the team the most long-term and short-term.

[Laika]

Maybe the Astros could be a good fit for Jansen. What about this?

 

 

Gets us a #5 SP but I also checked the boxes for a "swing and miss" reliever as well as an elite defensive CF. I apologize that the CFer doesn't also bat left-handed; I know that's incredibly important to everyone but I promise it doesn't matter as much as you think.

 

I also apologize for trading board favorite Craig Biggio's son but I also promise you that he's not very good.

 

Abreu has ascended. Can't see Astros doing this.

 

In reality Toronto will probably trade Jansen for Urquidy + roster filler and the Ross Atkins apologists will squint and fart really hard and find a way to justify it.

[Terminator]

Abreu has ascended. Can't see Astros doing this.

 

In reality Toronto will probably trade Jansen for Urquidy + roster filler and the Ross Atkins apologists will squint and fart really hard and find a way to justify it.

 

Yeah that's fair. I think we could possibly tweak it some and Jansen is also better than what I think this trade simulator gives him credit for.

[Brownie19]

Yeah that's fair. I think we could possibly tweak it some and Jansen is also better than what I think this trade simulator gives him credit for.

 

Abreu is great, but I'd like to see us get something more than a stud bullpen arm (because bullpen arms are so volatile) and a #5 starter for one of our stud catchers. Urquidy doesn't move the needle and Meyers isn't much better than Zimmer to be honest (yes that sounds crazy). Just sign Jake Marisnick instead of trading for Meyers.

 

If that's all that Jansen is worth, then I'd rather see what we could get for Kirk or Moreno.

[Laika]

Abreu is great, but I'd like to see us get something more than a stud bullpen arm (because bullpen arms are so volatile) and a #5 starter for one of our stud catchers. Urquidy doesn't move the needle and Meyers isn't much better than Zimmer to be honest (yes that sounds crazy). Just sign Jake Marisnick instead of trading for Meyers.

 

If that's all that Jansen is worth, then I'd rather see what we could get for Kirk or Moreno.

 

Urquidy is bizarre. 3 years of control and good stuff. It's possible he is pretty good and FIP / Fangraphs just don't show it well.

 

107.6 stuff+

104.5 command+

 

= 106.5 pitching+

 

 

The SP above and below him in stuff+ with at least 1300 pitches are:

 

Trevor Rogers

Michael Kopech

Freddy Peralta

Marcus Stroman

(Urquidy)

Max Scherzer

Roansy Contreras

Adam Wainwright

Frankie Montas

[Omar]

Don't trade Teo because it will not result in improving the team long-term or short-term.

Dump Gurriel for meh prospects and save 5M

Keeping Jansen and trading Kirk is likely to improve the team the most long-term and short-term.

 

Trading Teo et al for pitching will improve the team.

Dumping Gurriel for meh prospects will not improve the the team. $5m is pocket change.

Trading argueable our best young hitter (Kirk) will not improve the the team short term and long term.

 

Upon consideration your ideas are dumn.

[Solaxys]

Hunter Brown has pitched in the bullpen and has looked clean! Get him!

[Terminator]

Abreu is great, but I'd like to see us get something more than a stud bullpen arm (because bullpen arms are so volatile) and a #5 starter for one of our stud catchers. Urquidy doesn't move the needle and Meyers isn't much better than Zimmer to be honest (yes that sounds crazy). Just sign Jake Marisnick instead of trading for Meyers.

 

If that's all that Jansen is worth, then I'd rather see what we could get for Kirk or Moreno.

 

I tried to make something fair for both sides and realistic. You don't really like it which is fair but Laika doesn't think the Astros would really like it. That combined with the Trade Simulator score tells me it's at least fair enough to be within the realm of possibility. As for your comments on the players in question I think that's all pretty fair.

 

-RP is volatile but Abreu has a lot of control left and he looks like a shutdown late inning guy. Everyone constantly talking about swing and miss and this would do it about as good as we could expect.

-Urquidy is solid but he's hitting arb so will be more expensive and not providing as much surplus value. But still, this team desperately needs a #4 SP right now.

-Meyers is kind of a throw in but he has some potential after an injury riddled year. His defense looks really really good and the bat isn't a total zero.

 

Losing Jansen sucks but it's only 2 years of control left on him and we've got a 4 WAR Catcher and a Top 5 prospect to replace him.