General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Solaxys]

Fueled by 8 doubles

 

And they were no easy doubles, man put his life on the line for every one of them stretching typical singles into doubles .

[Jimcanuck]

The idea that teams don’t have strong preferences on who they want to keep and judge solely by offers received is asinine.

 

Sure there is some offer they would accept but for some players it’s 130% of their perceived value and for some it’s 100% or less.

 

Very few teams ever trade the best player and keep the lesser ones because they got a better offer. It basically never happens.

 

Where did I say the Jays don't have preferences on who to keep / who to trade? Although that likely isn't what happens in practice, what happens in practice is the Jays valuation of the 3 catchers is different from the valuation of a potential trading partner. A GM isn't doing they job if they let personal preferences get in the way of a strict value analysis.

[Dagagad]

Where did I say the Jays don't have preferences on who to keep / who to trade? Although that likely isn't what happens in practice, what happens in practice is the Jays valuation of the 3 catchers is different from the valuation of a potential trading partner. A GM isn't doing they job if they let personal preferences get in the way of a strict value analysis.

 

I think this is what people tell themselves but when I look at past trades, it seems to almost never happen unless a team is rebuilding. Teams rarely trade absolutely top level prospects any more and they basically never trade the best guy when they have a logjam at a position.

 

Maybe this one will be the exception.

 

For example, I absolutely do not believe that you could have gotten Franco for anything less than 200% of what the rays believe the middle range of projected value to be. Whereas, they probably sold low on Adames. Teams just don’t trade the best guy.

[Terminator]

Hmm

 

Tapia has an .848 OPS and a 136 wRC+ in June

 

0 walks (lol)

 

Fueled by 8 doubles

 

doubles machine

[Jimcanuck]

I think this is what people tell themselves but when I look at past trades, it seems to almost never happen unless a team is rebuilding. Teams rarely trade absolutely top level prospects any more and they basically never trade the best guy when they have a logjam at a position.

 

Maybe this one will be the exception.

 

For example, I absolutely do not believe that you could have gotten Franco for anything less than 200% of what the rays believe the middle range of projected value to be. Whereas, they probably sold low on Adames. Teams just don’t trade the best guy.

 

That has more to do with the value of control, as opposed to a desire to keep Franco over Adames.

 

In this case, Moreno and Kirk are under control for some time yet, while Jansen has a few years of control left. It is most likely that Jansen gets traded although it could be any of the three.

[Dagagad]

That has more to do with the value of control, as opposed to a desire to keep Franco over Adames.

 

In this case, Moreno and Kirk are under control for some time yet, while Jansen has a few years of control left. It is most likely that Jansen gets traded although it could be any of the three.

 

I think if you trade someone like Franco for ‘fair value’ for multiple pieces and he goes on to hit his upside, you could end up losing your job.

 

That’s an incredibly risky thing to do. A big part of being a superstar is that all that value is condensed into roster spot.

 

If the front office is down on Moreno or Kirk they might trade them. I could see that. But if they aren’t, then it won’t be simply about comparing offers.

[connorp]

DJ is getting traded. Won’t be what the people that see him as an AS will feel is warranted. Life will go on

[glory]

Is this Charlie or the analytic nerds?

 

This is a good question in regards to Tapia. I think if Charlie was going rogue and playing Tapia too much on his own, then the front office would have either traded him (like Panik last year) or at least told Charlie to calm the F down. Neither has happened. If anything, Tapia is playing more often (at least it seems that way). This might actually be a front office call (or analytics team), and that's terrifying.

[Stangstag]

This is a good question in regards to Tapia. I think if Charlie was going rogue and playing Tapia too much on his own, then the front office would have either traded him (like Panik last year) or at least told Charlie to calm the F down. Neither has happened. If anything, Tapia is playing more often (at least it seems that way). This might actually be a front office call (or analytics team), and that's terrifying.

 

Yeah the front office seems extremely reluctant to finally give up on their reclamation projects/bullpen guys. Every year its someone else.

 

This year its been: Tapia, Zimmer, Borucki, Richards. We’ll see how much rope guys like Thornton and Castillo get. Way too much play time from these scrubs though

[keggy]

Hmm

 

Tapia has an .848 OPS and a 136 wRC+ in June

 

0 walks (lol)

 

Fueled by 8 doubles

 

Smashing his way to a .375 SLG.

[connorp]

Smashing his way to a .375 SLG.

 

Is that the updated total?

[JFD]

Get your Red Jays hat with merica stars and stripes... lul

 

[Stangstag]

Get your Red Jays hat with merica stars and stripes... lul

 

 

A f***ing abomination. It can go in the trash along with the Red jerseys

[Dagagad]

Something I’ve been feeling for a while, not just from tonight’s game, but if you are talking about the very cutting edge of pitch development and pitch design, we probably aren’t even a top 10 team in baseball. I feel like we are on the hitting side probably.

 

It’s a problem. Maybe this is already being addressed and we will see the fruits soon… but man looking at Tampa bay, Houston, Yankees, seattle, Miami, Cleveland, even Baltimore now … we aren’t close.

 

It’s also baffling because these guys came from Cleveland.

[Spanky99]

When you see pushups at home plate tonight, you'll be singing a different tune.

 

Hahaha...

[Spanky99]

DJ is getting traded. Won’t be what the people that see him as an AS will feel is warranted. Life will go on

 

Deep Thoughts - by Connorp

[Terminator]

Something I’ve been feeling for a while, not just from tonight’s game, but if you are talking about the very cutting edge of pitch development and pitch design, we probably aren’t even a top 10 team in baseball. I feel like we are on the hitting side probably.

 

It’s a problem. Maybe this is already being addressed and we will see the fruits soon… but man looking at Tampa bay, Houston, Yankees, seattle, Miami, Cleveland, even Baltimore now … we aren’t close.

 

It’s also baffling because these guys came from Cleveland.

 

Idk what about Robbie Ray last year? That was a pretty remarkable career turnaround.

[Dagagad]

Idk what about Robbie Ray last year? That was a pretty remarkable career turnaround.

 

We aren’t bad. We have a decent amount of success.

 

I just don’t think we have anywhere near as much success as other teams, especially in relief pitching.

[Spanky99]

Jays are 3rd in fWAR hitting in the AL, 6th overall in MLB. In pitching their 3rd in the AL, 10th in MLB... yet sliding lately, obviously. A very good baseball club, just sayin'. I mean this relates to them being 3rd best team in the AL and holding the top spot in the WC. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dagagad]

Jays are 3rd in fWAR hitting in the AL, 6th overall in MLB. In pitching their 3rd in the AL, 10th in MLB... yet sliding lately, obviously. A very good baseball club, just sayin'. I mean this relates to them being 3rd best team in the AL and holding the top spot in the WC. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

We are also 29th in swinging strike rate with relievers. We don’t produce or acquire relievers with swing and miss. To me that a pitching dev thing. Most of the teams at the top of the list developed that themselves to some extent via some combo of smart acquisitions and development.

[Spanky99]

We are also 29th in swinging strike rate with relievers. We don’t produce or acquire relievers with swing and miss. To me that a pitching dev thing. Most of the teams at the top of the list developed that themselves to some extent via some combo of smart acquisitions and development.

 

Yes, I understand your take on the matter. Still doesn't make anything I posted different. We all pretty much know this is an issue, Atkins doesn't invest in lights out relievers, hell, Romano almost got away in the rule 5 draft, lol. That's why folk want the David Bednar's of the world now. It's an apparent problem, no doubt.

[Dagagad]

Yes, I understand your take on the matter. Still doesn't make anything I posted different. We all pretty much know this is an issue, Atkins doesn't invest in lights out relievers, hell, Romano almost got away in the rule 5 draft, lol. That's why folk want the David Bednar's of the world now. It's an apparent problem, no doubt.

 

I don’t think almost losing Romano is some kind of red flag. Every team has something like that (Cortes on the Yankees is an example) and I’m not sure I even disagree with their policy of not putting resources into the bullpen.

 

The problem is that they have very few of the ‘player they identified from another org and unlocked nasty stuff via some kind of change/development’ types. It’s a pitching dev thing or a player identification thing or both. But, we are obviously not among the elite in this area at all, and it’s a problem.

 

Edit: more of a longer term problem. It just seems hard to sustain long term success this way. We need to produce our own pitchers like we produce our own hitters.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Dagagad

[Stangstag]

We are also 29th in swinging strike rate with relievers. We don’t produce or acquire relievers with swing and miss. To me that a pitching dev thing. Most of the teams at the top of the list developed that themselves to some extent via some combo of smart acquisitions and development.

 

Biggest problem with the team/org for sure. This needs to get better.

[wilko]

Get your Red Jays hat with merica stars and stripes... lul

 

 

That's offensive!

[Laika]

We aren’t bad. We have a decent amount of success.

 

I just don’t think we have anywhere near as much success as other teams, especially in relief pitching.

 

The pipeline for RP prospects needs a long time to develop

 

You basically need to hoard arms for over half a decade and then you finally get a trickle of the failed SPs who can be good RPs filtering up

 

I don't think it's really this regime's fault, yet.

 

If you look at the good, young, whiffy relievers in other bullpens many of them will be 2014 to 2017 signings or draft picks.

 

They have gone budget on pen acquisitions and because of that decided to NOT target whiffs, but that has kind of worked out. Like Cimber is good. Phelps is doing alright.

 

They could be better at trading for or claiming relievers with potential and making them into something. Jason Adam and Bryan Baker were even here, for example...

[Spanky99]

Mayza's been decent, I like what I've seen from Gage thus far. We're missing depth, maybe Hernandez could be something too, I was hoping for a dominant appearance by Pearson, but that's out the window for now. Oof...

[wilko]

Mayza's been decent, I like what I've seen from Gage thus far. We're missing depth, maybe Hernandez could be something too, I was hoping for a dominant appearance by Pearson, but that's out the window for now. Oof...

 

Jeremy Beasley might turn into something. He's got some decent strike out stuff.

[Benito]

Something I’ve been feeling for a while, not just from tonight’s game, but if you are talking about the very cutting edge of pitch development and pitch design, we probably aren’t even a top 10 team in baseball. I feel like we are on the hitting side probably.

 

It’s a problem. Maybe this is already being addressed and we will see the fruits soon… but man looking at Tampa bay, Houston, Yankees, seattle, Miami, Cleveland, even Baltimore now … we aren’t close.

 

It’s also baffling because these guys came from Cleveland.

 

It's exaggeration to say we aren't close to some of those teams (Baltimore?!). You seem to focus primarily on relief pitchers, when they belong in the category of run prevention. Jays have developed some elite arms, Manoah, Pearson (save for injuries), and a good crop developing in the minors. Cleveland pitching program was very successful under the current front office. They seem to put more value and priority in starters than in relief pitchers. I certainly would like to see more swing and miss types in the bullpen, but as Laika noted, that can take time, as organizations usually try to give pitchers a chance to succeed as starters first, prior to giving up and converting them to relief pitchers.

[Terminator]

Get your Red Jays hat with merica stars and stripes... lul

 

 

Was this hat made specifically for me?

[connorp]

Was this hat made specifically for me?

 

It’s missing “Make the Bluejays Great Again”