Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[TBJ12]

Being used in AFL right now. Nothing on MLB adopting it.

 

Pretty sure I read something about the new ball being used as soon as 2022.

[saskjayfan]

sans Spider Tack and coming off TJ, I think fans need to temper there expectations of what Verlander can add. I mean the guys a f***ing legend and HOFer, but father time is undefeated.

 

I'm not saying there isn't risk reward there, but some guys are just freaks of nature. When he throws like he did last week and he looks like just like he did two years ago crisp sharp with no drop in velocity some GM will say f*** it and sign him and will either like like a champ or a chump in 2 years. I'm not oblivious to the obvious risk and completely respect anyone who thinks we should steer clear of such a gamble. There's plenty of guys out there. I'm just a risk taker. I thought we should sign Paxton last year, so what do I know!

[Jimcanuck]

That's a unique out of the box way to look at things Jim. Rookies have a hard enough time of it as it is. I would be shocked if they went to him and said we want you to split your time defensively between 3rd and catcher.

 

I thought we should sign Paxton last year, so what do I know!

 

Indeed.

 

Who is more risky, Kershaw or Verlander?

[connorp]

Indeed.

 

Who is more risky, Kershaw or Verlander?

 

From a Jays’ perspective, it doesn’t really matter.

Both will have offers from all the contenders and neither would come to Toronto for an extra couple million. Pretty sure you can take that to the bank

[Ehjays]

https://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-notebook-staying-in-touch-with-semien-and-ray-assessing-infield-options-1.1719807

 

 

Blue Jays notebook: Staying in touch with Semien and Ray, assessing infield options

 

CARLSBAD, Calif. — It surprises nobody that Ross Atkins left the picturesque GM meetings host resort just outside San Diego on Thursday afternoon with the same roster holes he entered the week with.

 

At this early stage of the off-season, it’s all about information gathering rather than executing, and the first in-person meetings of these kind since 2019 have started to reveal the true intentions of a handful of teams.

 

 

The Cincinnati Reds and the Oakland A’s are sellers.

 

The Seattle Mariners and Texas Rangers are buyers.

 

And there seems to be a much larger group of owners willing to spend this winter compared to a year ago in the thick of the pandemic.

 

All of it will affect what Atkins and his Toronto Blue Jays front office is trying to do in various ways.

 

There’s no secret where the Jays sit: They’re win-now buyers with money to spend once again.

 

Rotation impact, infield reinforcements and bullpen depth are all needed between now and February.

 

Figuring out exactly who they are after and the tricky blueprint needed to get all that done is another story.

 

Atkins is playing multiple hands at a time, the same as 29 other general managers.

 

“It’s a matter of thinking about whether it’s more complementary or a free agent or a trade of some significant impact,” Atkins said. “We’re also in a position where we have to consider if there are ways that other teams are valuing certain areas of our club that could help us round out the team in a different way. That’s why these meetings are so helpful and so important in expediting a lot of that information for us.”

 

The general sense this week in California is that the top end of the free-agent market won’t have much movement until the CBA is figured out, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a handful of deals won’t happen.

 

There will surely be a handful of players seeking some certainty and deem an offer too good to pass up this month.

 

“There are always things we can act on and I wouldn’t be surprised if teams are close right now,” Atkins said Thursday before boarding a flight back to Toronto. “There are things that we could clearly push forward but still have a lot of opportunities and different things to consider where we don’t have something imminent.”

 

Let’s take a look at a handful of Jays talking points this week:

 

STAYING IN TOUCH WITH RAY, SEMIEN

 

It’s impossible to predict where the markets will go for the two Jays stars, but the club continues to have interest in reunions.

 

Many within the game believe both will escape, with interested in a West Coast landing spot and already being courted by the Los Angeles Angels, who absolutely need to surround with some quality, top-of-the-market pitching.

 

The tricky part for the Jays is they can’t act on another move that would rule out Semien or Ray before they figure out if bringing them back is realistic.

“A lot of it is in their hands,” Atkins said. “We’re very respectful of them getting to free agency and earning the right to explore that market, so much of it is not necessarily following their lead but being respectful of them wanting to take some time to do that. What we can do is just constantly communicate with their representation and stay in contact consistently to understand the potential of needing to go another direction while we maintain those as options.”

 

ASSESSING INFIELD OPTIONS

 

The Jays could go a number of ways when it comes to adding an infielder.

 

If Semien walks, it’s not outlandish to think they could pivot and look to the shortstop market to see if or would be willing to switch positions.

 

The Semien addition came out of the blue last January so it wouldn’t be smart to completely rule out those names, even if it seems unlikely.

They could also call the Oakland A’s about if they want.

 

Atkins left the door open for a star-level addition this week, but also pointed to potentially just adding some depth to the in-house options.

 

“Adding another infielder either in a significant way or just to complement some of the other young infielders that we have would be a good outcome,” Atkins said. “Don’t feel like we absolutely have to, but we’d like to add another infielder to that mix.”

 

CONFIDENCE IN BIGGIO

 

Even though he’s coming off a lost season thanks to a handful of nagging health issues, the Jays have by no means given up on Cavan Biggio.

 

While his wRC+ fell from a well above average 122 in 2020 to just 84 across 294 plate appearances this season, his versatility and lefty bat are going to help him find a role.

 

Exactly what that is will likely depend on the aforementioned infield addition, or additions.

 

“I’m really excited about Cavan Biggio next year,” Atkins said. “I feel like with the injuries he had this year and I’m just extremely optimistic we’re going to see a very good player in Cavan moving forward, not just next year.”

 

As of today, the Jays want Biggio to continue to work at second base, third base and the outfield, with the odd first base day thrown in, too.

They could, however, narrow that focus if other moves are made.

 

“We’ve talked a few times recently and he’s so openminded and willing to be flexible,” Atkins said. “Because of his ability, his athleticism, his past, he’s confident he can make the adjustment. I just told him as we learned more about our opportunities I would keep him in the loop and as he starts his work at second and/or third or both and outfield that we can come up with a plan together each step of the way, but would rather learn as much as possible before we make that decision. He’s comfortable with that.”

 

ROMANO NOT GUARANTEED THE NINTH

 

After closing out 23 games this season, Jordan Romano will without a doubt be the key piece to the bullpen next season.

 

But could the Jays be open to adding an established veteran closer this winter?

 

Atkins did not rule it out when asked if he’s seeking complementary bullpen pieces or maybe interested in shopping at the top of the market, where and reside.

 

is also very available via trade.

 

“We’re open to both and don’t feel like we have to establish a back-of-the-bullpen closer that has shown the ability to do that or has that skillset, but we’re open to that and open to that concept,” Atkins said.

 

There is one trait Atkins is interested in.

 

“Swing-and-miss is always nice later in a game,” Atkins said. “To complement (Adam) Cimber and (Trevor) Richards, another arm that could get a strikeout late in the game would be a nice piece to have and hopefully we have a couple of those.”

 

Romano’s attitude towards the ninth inning is something could come into play here and using the quirky right-hander in a “most important outs” role no matter the frame might be ideal.

 

“The great thing about Jordan is he always tells us, ‘I just want to win,’” Atkins relayed. “So we have consistently talked to him about the potential impact, the potential role and his consistent response is, ‘I want to be a part of a winning team and whatever makes us better, I’m all in.’ It’s authentic.”

 

RULE 5 DEADLINE COMING

 

Clubs have until next Friday to add eligible players to the 40-man roster or risk losing them in next month’s Rule 5 draft.

 

The Jays have some interesting decisions to make on some low-level names.

 

Using my 2021 top 50 Jays prospects list as a guide the most important names who need to be added are infielder Miguel Hiraldo (No. 9), right-hander Joey Murray (No. 17), shortstop Leo Jimenez (No. 20) and Brazilian righty Eric Pardinho (No. 23).

 

Jimenez, a true shortstop, seems like the best bet.

 

There’s also Triple-A starters Zach Logue and Bowden Francis, who was acquired in the deal that sent to the Milwaukee Brewers, versatile speedster Samad Taylor (No. 38) as well as interesting low-level arms like Roither Hernandez (No. 41), Naswell Paulino (No. 42) and Alejandro Melean (No. 43).

 

Only a couple of these names will be added to the Jays’ 40-man, but you can expect to see a flurry of minor moves league-wide next Friday.

[saskjayfan]

Indeed.

 

Who is more risky, Kershaw or Verlander?

 

I like both...like where is the craps table..lol

[Abomination]

Indeed.

 

Who is more risky, Kershaw or Verlander?

 

I feel like Kershaw is more risky as he'll probably be asking for a much bigger, longer deal. I think there's a good chance that Verlander will take a 1 year deal with a team that has a decent chance at the postseason.

[John_Havok]

What would the interest in Matt Chapman be like? Via trade he'd certainly be less expensive to acquire than Ramirez - who's probably the best choice, all things considered.

 

He still hits HRs, still plays spectacular D and Oakland is getting rid of cost as fast as they can. Would people be willing to bet that his swing and miss starts to regress back towards career norms rather than staying the same or getting worse?

[max silver]

What would the interest in Matt Chapman be like? Via trade he'd certainly be less expensive to acquire than Ramirez - who's probably the best choice, all things considered.

 

He still hits HRs, still plays spectacular D and Oakland is getting rid of cost as fast as they can. Would people be willing to bet that his swing and miss starts to regress back towards career norms rather than staying the same or getting worse?

 

Chapman would be a nice pickup for sure as it would allow the club to move Espinal into more of a backup role, which would be perfect for him as he should be able to provide very good defence all over the infield. (this is assuming Espinal isn't one of the pieces heading back to Oakland in trade) To me it looks like Chapman is what he is at this point, as the extreme swing and miss issues date back over several seasons now. You would think he is a guy that should have his vvision thoroughly examined as the whiff and k issues popped up seemingly out of nowhere after not really being an issue to start his career.

[Virgil_Hiltz]

Chapman would be a nice pickup for sure as it would allow the club to move Espinal into more of a backup role, which would be perfect for him as he should be able to provide very good defence all over the infield. (this is assuming Espinal isn't one of the pieces heading back to Oakland in trade) To me it looks like Chapman is what he is at this point, as the extreme swing and miss issues date back over several seasons now. You would think he is a guy that should have his vvision thoroughly examined as the whiff and k issues popped up seemingly out of nowhere after not really being an issue to start his career.

I'm somewhat on board for Chapman if Ramerez isn't obtained. The one question I do have is his swing and miss and where to bat him? We've seen enough swing and miss with Grichuk.

[Abomination]

I'm somewhat on board for Chapman if Ramerez isn't obtained. The one question I do have is his swing and miss and where to bat him? We've seen enough swing and miss with Grichuk.

 

Grichuk's K rate is actually pretty good. The biggest difference between them is that Chapman is elite defensively. Being another righty isn't ideal. It really depends on the cost.

[John_Havok]

Chapman would be a nice pickup for sure as it would allow the club to move Espinal into more of a backup role, which would be perfect for him as he should be able to provide very good defence all over the infield. (this is assuming Espinal isn't one of the pieces heading back to Oakland in trade) To me it looks like Chapman is what he is at this point, as the extreme swing and miss issues date back over several seasons now. You would think he is a guy that should have his vvision thoroughly examined as the whiff and k issues popped up seemingly out of nowhere after not really being an issue to start his career.

 

The swing and miss began with his hip injury (torn labrum) in 2020.

[Ryu In My House]

Matt Chapman would be nice, but my number one priority is a elite offensive player who bats left and has plus defense. For anywhere but 1B or SS. But I wouldn't shy away from signing Seiya Suzuki.

[max silver]

Matt Chapman would be nice, but my number one priority is a elite offensive player who bats left and has plus defense. For anywhere but 1B or SS. But I wouldn't shy away from signing Seiya Suzuki.

 

That player doesn't exist in free agency this season unless you can convince Corey Seager to move off of short stop, and even then the defence might not be plus.

[Krylian]

Jays in on Eduardo Rodriguez

[G-Snarls]

Jays in on Eduardo Rodriguez

 

How are the Red Sox finances for 2022? Can they afford to outbid everyone to keep him?

Edited November 15, 2021 by G-Snarls

[Brownie19]

The swing and miss began with his hip injury (torn labrum) in 2020.

 

This - his K% was dropping year after year until the labrum injury. Should teams be concerned about that injury?

[Ryu In My House]

That player doesn't exist in free agency this season unless you can convince Corey Seager to move off of short stop, and even then the defence might not be plus.

 

I don't care how they get him.

[max silver]

This - his K% was dropping year after year until the labrum injury. Should teams be concerned about that injury?

 

All the articles I've read on the Chapman regarding his hip injury state that his hip surgery was completely successful and that the tear was no longer a concern. It seems possible that he can retrain his swing with enough repa to get away from the bad habits he likely developed due to the initial hip injury.

[John_Havok]

This - his K% was dropping year after year until the labrum injury. Should teams be concerned about that injury?

 

That’s the gamble. Trading for him the teams will want to see if he can regain his prior injury form, or at least get closer to that. Heck, he was still a 3+ fWAR player last year thanks to his Defense, HR and walks.

 

With even a minor bounce back in K rate to something like 27% he probably a 4 WAR player assuming his D doesn’t slide.

[max silver]

I don't care how they get him.

 

Guys like this don't grow on trees and likely wouldn't find themselves on the trading block very often. One guy that almost fits the bill and might be available is Matt Olsen, he fits the bill on plus defence and elite bat but plays first base. Perhaps if he were acquired moving Vlad back to third could be an option.

[L54]

Ketel Marte is the ultimate fit for this team. He's going to make 8M this year and has two club options for 10/12M which is probably too expensive for the D Backs

 

Slides right into 2B replacing Semien

Can play CF

Switch hitter

Lots of contact

Cheap

 

I'd be fine giving up Groshans++ to land him

 

7 (!) WAR season in 2019

 

28 years old in the prime of his career

[Grant77]

What would the interest in Matt Chapman be like? Via trade he'd certainly be less expensive to acquire than Ramirez - who's probably the best choice, all things considered.

 

He still hits HRs, still plays spectacular D and Oakland is getting rid of cost as fast as they can. Would people be willing to bet that his swing and miss starts to regress back towards career norms rather than staying the same or getting worse?

 

Matt Chapman would my number 1 option as far as hitters are concerned, with Kyke Seager as a fallback option.

 

Getting a real third baseman allows everything else to fall into place for the offense. We can play Biggio/Espinal at 2B and tinker around with minor league deals for the bench, while investing everything else into pitching, which could be as much as 60 million. That might be enough for Ray and a short term pitcher like Verlander, Syndergaard, Rodon, or Scherzer, along with a reliever.

[gruber92]

Ketel Marte is the ultimate fit for this team. He's going to make 8M this year and has two club options for 10/12M which is probably too expensive for the D Backs

 

Slides right into 2B replacing Semien

Can play CF

Switch hitter

Lots of contact

Cheap

 

I'd be fine giving up Groshans++ to land him

 

7 (!) WAR season in 2019

 

28 years old in the prime of his career

 

If Moreno isn't involved, they probably hang up. I say sign his brother who is a FA to play LF/CF and use Gurriel as part of a package to get Ramirez from Cleveland to play 3B.

 

S. Marte 4/100?

 

Gurriel, Kirk and Groshans at the minimum for Ramirez but I think Cleveland will want Orelvis instead of Groshans in that deal.

[L54]

If Moreno isn't involved, they probably hang up. I say sign his brother who is a FA to play LF/CF and use Gurriel as part of a package to get Ramirez from Cleveland to play 3B.

 

S. Marte 4/100?

 

Gurriel, Kirk and Groshans at the minimum for Ramirez but I think Cleveland will want Orelvis instead of Groshans in that deal.

 

They aren’t related but no way I’d give 33 year old Marte 100M.

 

If the Diamondbacks are hanging up without Moreno why wouldn’t the Indians? Doesn’t really make any sense other than Marte is controlled for a year longer. Ramirez is the better player.

 

The Jays wouldn’t have to give up Moreno for either one in my opinion.

[TwistedLogic]

[Brownie19]

If Moreno isn't involved, they probably hang up. I say sign his brother who is a FA to play LF/CF and use Gurriel as part of a package to get Ramirez from Cleveland to play 3B.

 

S. Marte 4/100?

 

Gurriel, Kirk and Groshans at the minimum for Ramirez but I think Cleveland will want Orelvis instead of Groshans in that deal.

 

I would guess you're overstating the FA and trade market...teams rarely give up their top prospects anymore. It's not 2009

[TwistedLogic]

It depresses me that the Jays haven't been tied to Starling Marte at all even though his market has been developing lately.

 

Guy's going to be the best signing of the offseason.

[Brownie19]

It depresses me that the Jays haven't been tied to Starling Marte at all even though his market has been developing lately.

 

Guy's going to be the best signing of the offseason.

 

I think it depends on length and AAV (which, as I type it, is stupid to say because it always does).

 

Heading into his Age 33 year, I think this Steamer projection is in line with what you would expect.

 

18 HR 85 R 73 RBI 32 SB 6.6% BB 18.5% K .276 AVG .339 OBP .437 SLG 110 wRC+ 2.9 BsR 11.0 OFF -1.2 DEF 3.1 WAR

 

With that production, he'd be a great fit and would allow us to move Gurriel if we wanted. What do you think he'll get for a contract? 3 years $50M?

[Ryu In My House]

Matt Chapman would my number 1 option as far as hitters are concerned, with Kyke Seager as a fallback option.

 

Getting a real third baseman allows everything else to fall into place for the offense. We can play Biggio/Espinal at 2B and tinker around with minor league deals for the bench, while investing everything else into pitching, which could be as much as 60 million. That might be enough for Ray and a short term pitcher like Verlander, Syndergaard, Rodon, or Scherzer, along with a reliever.

 

He has three years left I think...that would be Groshans++. But I would do it. Takes care of 3B for three years. Biggio/Espinal bouncing around between 2B and the INF works for me. You'd you solid defense and offence.

 

I would prefer the three years and probable cost more than a lot of trades that have been proposed. We could even eat some bad salary to retain a prospect I would bet.