Around Baseball 2021

[The_DH]

Barry Bonds is the best player I've seen play baseball and deserves to be in the hall of fame period. Just thought I'd give my 2 cents lol.

 

And to think we almost got him in a trade for Duane Ward.

[TheHurl]

McGriff would have more votes by some if he had used PED, put up better stats AND gotten busted. Pretty messed up

 

He did use

[Brownie19]

He did use

 

whoa! bombshell...explain!

[jerb]

 

MLB Trade Rumors

@mlbtraderumors

 

Twins, Derek Fisher Agree To Minor League Deal

https://t.co/Vkfqt4HOpw

[jerb]

 

NPB on reddit

@NPB_Reddit

 

The Orix Buffaloes announced three new non-Japanese player acquisitions:

Jacob Waguespack, former Blue Jays RHP

Jesse Biddle, former Braves LHP

Breyvic Valera, former Blue Jays IF

https://t.co/MpP9zsotT0 #npb

[Brownie19]

whoa! bombshell...explain!

 

Well? I've also never heard of this Duane Ward / Barry Bonds deal. Eduuuumacate me!

[John_Havok]

Well? I've also never heard of this Duane Ward / Barry Bonds deal. Eduuuumacate me!

 

Me neither. I know there was a bid deal for Bonds to go to Atlanta in 1992 that ultimately didn't happen, but that was only written about years later by the Braves GM in his book.

[John_Havok]

Andruw Jones for the Hall of Fame:

 

Hard to deny those 11 seasons from 1997-2007 as being as close to godly as you can get for a CF - 10 time no doubt gold glove defense with 30+ HR per year.

 

Also the poster child for falling of a cliff due to injury in 2008. Easily a HOF peak IMO, but not the typical longevity.

 

yay or nay?

[Jimcanuck]

Andruw Jones for the Hall of Fame:

 

Hard to deny those 11 seasons from 1997-2007 as being as close to godly as you can get for a CF - 10 time no doubt gold glove defense with 30+ HR per year.

 

Also the poster child for falling of a cliff due to injury in 2008. Easily a HOF peak IMO, but not the typical longevity.

 

yay or nay?

 

Hall of Very Good... most of his value on the defensive side, I don't see the voters giving enough weight to that

[John_Havok]

Hall of Very Good... most of his value on the defensive side, I don't see the voters giving enough weight to that

 

Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame for his defense. 67 WAR in 18 seasons. Combo of negative offense and elite defense.

 

Andruw Jones put up 67 WAR in 17 seasons, though largely in the first 11. Combo of both good offense and elite defense.

 

Does that change your opinion in any way?

[Jimcanuck]

Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame for his defense. 67 WAR in 18 seasons. Combo of negative offense and elite defense.

 

Andruw Jones put up 67 WAR in 17 seasons, though largely in the first 11. Combo of both good offense and elite defense.

 

Does that change your opinion in any way?

 

The Ozzie exception (probably best ever defensive shortstop) does not.

[John_Havok]

The Ozzie exception (probably best ever defensive shortstop) does not.

 

Why not? I'm not saying you're wrong btw, just wondering why two elite defensive players, with virtually the same WAR would be treated differently by the Hall voters.

 

Jones was way better with the bat, and just slightly less good defensively. The clearly better offense doesn't make up for the marginally inferior defense?

 

 

What about Rolen? Even better offensively than Jones, but a clear tick below on D. Still managed 70 WAR over 17 seasons. Still no?

[Jimcanuck]

Why not? I'm not saying you're wrong btw, just wondering why two elite defensive players, with virtually the same WAR would be treated differently by the Hall voters.

 

Jones was way better with the bat, and just slightly less good defensively. The clearly better offense doesn't make up for the marginally inferior defense?

 

 

What about Rolen? Even better offensively than Jones, but a clear tick below on D. Still managed 70 WAR over 17 seasons. Still no?

 

No one is wrong in this, I'm just making a guess that Jones will just miss the bar. The decline, the domestic violence conviction, voters weighing offense over defense.

 

I think Rolen eventually gets in.

[John_Havok]

No one is wrong in this, I'm just making a guess that Jones will just miss the bar. The decline, the domestic violence conviction, voters weighing offense over defense.

 

I think Rolen eventually gets in.

 

If you had a vote, would you vote for Jones and/or Rolen?

[Ryu In My House]

Hall of Very Good... most of his value on the defensive side, I don't see the voters giving enough weight to that

 

You're right. He's no Harold Baines.

[bendera3]

Buck Showalter took a job that no one can stick with.

[connorp]

Buck Showalter took a job that no one can stick with.

 

Honestly, what’s he have to lose though?

[connorp]

Factoring in the FAME part of the HOF equation, Ozzie was undoubtedly considered a future, generational HOF in his time. Not unlike say Rickey Henderson, but for different reasons obviously. Fathers pointing his brilliance out to sons kind of thing. Maybe AJ was more the poster boy for generational stat nerds? Idk. But he just never got that buzz Edited December 19, 2021 by connorp

[John_Havok]

Factoring in the FAME part of the HOF equation, Ozzie was undoubtedly considered a future, generational HOF in his time. Not unlike say Rickey Henderson, but for different reasons obviously. Fathers pointing his brilliance out to sons kind of thing. Maybe AJ was more the poster boy for generational star nerds? Idk. But he just never got that buzz

 

Probably due to a variety of factors, the most obvious being that he was in the era where guys were hitting 50-60 HRs a season regularly, he only hit 30-35. PLus, the publicly available advanced metrics on offense and defense were still in their infancy. I mean, people could see someone was a good defender, but they had no idea how much more valuable Andruw Jones was versus a normal no-bat, all defense CF. At the time, he probably just looked like your average run of the mill CF who happened to hit for some power, while other guys who didn't play CF hit 60 bombs a year.

[Jimcanuck]

If you had a vote, would you vote for Jones and/or Rolen?

 

Rolen yes, Jones a bubble boy, depending on who else is on the ballot.

[John_Havok]

Rolen yes, Jones a bubble boy, depending on who else is on the ballot.

 

I don’t understand the way of thinking of “depends who else is on the ballot” unless you run out of space because of the stupid 10 names limit. He might be the worst of the worthy candidates every year but that’s no reason to sit until a “weaker” class shows up. Either he’s worthy or he isn’t.

 

The guy who passes all his classes in med school, but has the worst grades still gets called Doctor.

[Stangstag]

Buck Showalter took a job that no one can stick with.

 

Good move by the Mets IMO. That org/clubhouse has been in shambles since the departure of Terry Collins. Showalter has managed in NY before and he’s managed big attitude players like Manny.

[Brownie19]

Who's the best defensive CF of all time?

 

It's Andruw Jones per the 'stats' and it's not even remotely close. He's 64% better than Willie Mays. Ozzie is only 8.5% better than Mark Belanger. 21% better than Cal.

 

I think Jones belongs in the HOF personally. Excited to see what his son will do too. I also think Lofton and Edmonds should be in the HOF. Rolen too.

[Spanky__99]

Good move by the Mets IMO. That org/clubhouse has been in shambles since the departure of Terry Collins. Showalter has managed in NY before and he’s managed big attitude players like Manny.

 

Not to mention them f***ing off away from Pete Walker.

[Olerud363]

Who's the best defensive CF of all time?

 

It's Andruw Jones per the 'stats' and it's not even remotely close. He's 64% better than Willie Mays. Ozzie is only 8.5% better than Mark Belanger. 21% better than Cal.

 

I think Jones belongs in the HOF personally. Excited to see what his son will do too. I also think Lofton and Edmonds should be in the HOF. Rolen too.

 

One thing that doesn't make sense is Jones baserunning. It's below average while other dynamic centerfielders (prime Devon White, Buxton, Kiermaier) are all very good baserunners. The skills to be a good center fielder, speed, good jump, ability to anticipate usually correlate to baserunning.

 

Could be the defensive system is over-rating Jones, or the writers are under-rating him because his skill-set doesn't scream "awesome defensive center-fielder" the way Devon White's does.

 

I honestly can't remember what Jones was like. Was he really fast? Maybe he was fast but just an idiot on the base paths.

[Olerud363]

Crazy. Andruw Jones and Carlos Beltran have almost the exact same career fWAR

 

Beltran is an awesome baserunner, better hitter, but rated way, way worse defensively. Is that real? Impression from watching 1 game a year with those guys was Beltran was an awesome centerfielder too. Weird that one is an awesome baserunner but mediocre defender and the other is an awesome defender but mediocre baserunner.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/andruw-jones/96/stats?position=OF

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/carlos-beltran/589/stats?position=OF

[Laika]

Crazy. Andruw Jones and Carlos Beltran have almost the exact same career fWAR

 

Beltran is an awesome baserunner, better hitter, but rated way, way worse defensively. Is that real? Impression from watching 1 game a year with those guys was Beltran was an awesome centerfielder too. Weird that one is an awesome baserunner but mediocre defender and the other is an awesome defender but mediocre baserunner.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/andruw-jones/96/stats?position=OF

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/carlos-beltran/589/stats?position=OF

 

Beltran was good, Jones was great.

 

Beltran also bled out a lot of his career defensive value in his late 30s. Jones retired after 35, Beltran played five more years and accrued negative 60 defensive runs or whatever.

 

Jones wasn't even a negative defender by UZR in his final years - it was just the positional adjustment that flipped him negative since he was no longer patrolling CF

[Brownie19]

Crazy. Andruw Jones and Carlos Beltran have almost the exact same career fWAR

 

Beltran is an awesome baserunner, better hitter, but rated way, way worse defensively. Is that real? Impression from watching 1 game a year with those guys was Beltran was an awesome centerfielder too. Weird that one is an awesome baserunner but mediocre defender and the other is an awesome defender but mediocre baserunner.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/andruw-jones/96/stats?position=OF

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/carlos-beltran/589/stats?position=OF

 

No offense, but this is like saying Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith finished their careers with the same WAR and my impression from watching Barry Larkin 1 game a year was that he was an awesome defensive shortstop too. Andruw Jones was next level defensively. It seems everyone has the oversized version of Jones on the LA Dodgers etched in their memories. I bet more people think of Ken Griffey Jr when they think of amazing defensive CFers instead of Jones, which is a shame.

[John_Havok]

No offense, but this is like saying Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith finished their careers with the same WAR and my impression from watching Barry Larkin 1 game a year was that he was an awesome defensive shortstop too. Andruw Jones was next level defensively. It seems everyone has the oversized version of Jones on the LA Dodgers etched in their memories. I bet more people think of Ken Griffey Jr when they think of amazing defensive CFers instead of Jones, which is a shame.

 

Griffey Jr did have some great defensive years in CF, he was legitimately good on Defense. Not Jones level elite consistently, but he was still quite good.

[Dick_Pole]

I started watching baseball as a kid in the late 80's. Ozzie Smith was a legend. The couple games a year you could watch him on CBS on Saturday afternoons you definitely would tune in. One of the few players who you'd really want a baseball card from. I stopped caring much about card collecting years ago but I can't imagine an Andruw Jones card would sell for much more than common cards other than his rookie.

 

So I see two issues working against Jones here, just from my perspective. First, he's just another good ball player I saw during my adult years as opposed to Ozzie Smith who has legendary status - something that a lot of people in the 35-45 range probably feel. Second, Smith came in an era where there wasn't a lot of good ball players. Like people have mentioned Jones got lost in the shuffle among all the high offensive stats. He also hasn't been SUCH a standout defensive player where defense is basically his brand name. If he had done some unnecessary Simone Biles s*** on the field, he'd probably rank a lot higher in a lot of people's minds.