Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[Laika]

The Jays are currently drafting 5th and are 2 games behind drafting 2nd.

 

Realistic shot at #2 with Bichette's injury. Nobody should catch Pittsburgh though.

[Terminator]

Rowdy actually hits lefties and righties about the same.

 

That could be true but those are unregressed splits which I don't really trust. He has like 150 ABs against lefties and 350 against righties and shows a small split already. Over time I bet that split would widen and he'd end up like everyone else.

 

Regardless, given that he brings nothing else to the table, even a small split makes him pretty worthless against lefties.

 

It kind of sucks because used right he could be a useful player that I might actually like. But seeing him trot out there as an everyday player is frustrating and makes me hate watching him.

[Terminator]

The Jays are currently drafting 5th and are 2 games behind drafting 2nd.

 

Not a bad way to look at it. Get a good pick and come back next year with a more complete roster. We don't really lose a whole lot. Giles who is always hurt anyway and Shoemaker I believe. I think that's about it. Looks like we may have found a few guys for the bullpen. Just need a couple more and another starter or two and a couple of bench players.

 

Is the draft supposed to be good this upcoming year?

[BlueRocky]

Not a bad way to look at it. Get a good pick and come back next year with a more complete roster. We don't really lose a whole lot. Giles who is always hurt anyway and Shoemaker I believe. I think that's about it. Looks like we may have found a few guys for the bullpen. Just need a couple more and another starter or two and a couple of bench players.

 

Is the draft supposed to be good this upcoming year?

 

Pretty good. But the draft order won't be that simple I think.

[Laika]

Not a bad way to look at it. Get a good pick and come back next year with a more complete roster. We don't really lose a whole lot. Giles who is always hurt anyway and Shoemaker I believe. I think that's about it. Looks like we may have found a few guys for the bullpen. Just need a couple more and another starter or two and a couple of bench players.

 

Is the draft supposed to be good this upcoming year?

 

Pretty hard to evaluate without any data from this year. Two college RHP at or near the top but I don’t see anyone comparable to Torkelson or Martin as far as College bats go. I think I remember reading that it is a deep class in round 1 but again, who the f*** will even know with so much baseball being cancelled in 2020.

[BlueRocky]

Quite frankly there’s no bat comparable to Torkelson, Martin or Gonzales. Not even close. Those guys put up some of the most ridiculous college numbers we’ve seen the past five years. There might be a couple popup prep bats of the Riley Green, Zac Veen variety. I think one or two college bats could reach the Alec Bohm tier, which is still tank worthy.

[Daniel Labude]

Quite frankly there’s no bat comparable to Torkelson, Martin or Gonzales. Not even close. Those guys put up some of the most ridiculous college numbers we’ve seen the past five years. There might be a couple popup prep bats of the Riley Green, Zac Veen variety. I think one or two college bats could reach the Alec Bohm tier, which is still tank worthy.

 

Jud Fabian by next June could have been close if COVID didn't happen

[Dick_Pole]

I knew this thread would be a fun read after today.

[FrozenRopes]

Good coach.

[glory]

Pretty good. But the draft order won't be that simple I think.

 

Yeah doesn’t Manfred have control over the draft order? I remember reading that if the season is shorter than X amount of games (think it was 80) that he’d be able to determine the draft order in any way he wanted. That’s a scary thought.

[Deadpool]

Yeah doesn’t Manfred have control over the draft order? I remember reading that if the season is shorter than X amount of games (think it was 80) that he’d be able to determine the draft order in any way he wanted. That’s a scary thought.

 

He'll probably pawn it off to Vic Carapazza...

[Boxcar]

He'll probably pawn it off to Vic Carapazza...

 

Yeah umpires are evil

[Laika]

Yeah doesn’t Manfred have control over the draft order? I remember reading that if the season is shorter than X amount of games (think it was 80) that he’d be able to determine the draft order in any way he wanted. That’s a scary thought.

 

Yes he does.

[BigCecil]

Let's recap today's insane managing.

 

Game 1

Bottom of the 6th, game tied at 2

-Runners on first and second and nobody out. Montoyo bunts with McGuire to put the runners in scoring position.

-The Rays take out Beeks (LHP) and bring in Fairbanks (RHP) to pitch to Drury.

-Montoyo opts to not use Travis Shaw to pinch hit! Shaw bats left so not only would he have had the Lefty-Righty matchup but he's also MILES better than Brandon Drury. Shaw also plays the very same position. This was set up on a tee for Montoyo and he whiffed. WHY WOULDN'T HE PINCH HIT HERE?

-Not only does Drury get out, but he hits a weak dribbler down the line and Grichuk gets thrown out at home. We now have 1 runner in scoring position and 2 outs instead of having 1 runner in scoring position and 0 outs.

 

Top of the 7th, Game Tied

-Montoyo brings in Borucki to face the top of the Rays lineup.

-After a K and a double, Montoyo intentionally walks Yandy Diaz? Why?

-Then the Rays pinch hit to get the matchup and he leaves the left handed Borucki in the game. He walks another batter to load the bases.

-THEN Montoyo brings in Dolis to face the righty Brosseau but Cash pinch hits again to get the matchup with Wendle.

-In the end it didn't matter because Dolis got the job done. But between the Bottom of the 6th and the Top of the 7th, Cash got his matchups damn near every single time! Cash was playing Montoyo like a fiddle.

 

9th Inning, Tie Game

-Montoyo has Romano in and Lowe homers and then puts 2 runners on. Montoyo goes to Shun Yamaguchi to face KK. At this point in the year Romano has looked like a stud but was struggling so I get the hook. But once again the Jays pitchers are continuously on the wrong end of the matchup. Not really complaining here but Yamaguchi has not looked good and he uses him in a big spot. Meh.

 

Bottom 9, Down 1

-NOW Montoyo pinch hits. So he's aware that pinch hitting for Drury with Shaw is a good idea, he just has no idea when to do it. Anderson is one of the best relievers in baseball. Shaw and the rest of the Jays didn't stand a chance at this point. Game over.

 

Game 2

Top 5, Jays up 5-3

-Shoemaker gets tossed. We only have three innings to go and a 2 run lead. We've got roughly 5 pitchers available. Kay and Cole who are decent, Font and Waguespack who are bad and Gaviglio who is trash. Who does Montoyo go to? He picks one of the bad ones in Waguespack.

-He probably picked him because it was the bottom of the order and he wanted Kay to pitch to the top of the order. Well guess what Waguespack stinks so Kay has to pitch to the top of the order anyway, and this time with inherited baserunners. Kay gets out of it but the Rays chip away as one of Wagespack's baserunners scores.

 

Top 7 (the final inning), Jays up 1

-Whoever was calling the shots at this point (since Montoyo was tossed) takes Alford out of the game in the 9th inning and uses Gurriel as a defensive replacement? Lol that's the exact opposite of how you are supposed to use Anthony Alford.

-If that wasn't bad enough, the Jays leave Tellez in the game and Drury at SS. Why not leave Alford in the game, sub Espinal in at SS and move Drury to 1B? Instead, the Jays go with one of the worst defensive teams that they could possibly field to protect a 1 run lead.

-What happens? Meadows hits a 78 mph ground ball past a diving Tellez. According to statcast that ball had an xBA of .370. Yeah that's pretty high but it still means that 73% of the time a ball hit like that is going to be an out. Tellez, one of the worst defensive players in baseball, couldn't come up with the play.

-The rally is on and Teoscar f***s up, allowing them to tie the game. They lost two very close games and they allowed unearned runs in both.

 

Anyway, that ended up a lot longer than I thought it would so thanks for reading. There were just that many boneheaded moves made by Montoyo and whoever replaced him after he got tossed. Hopefully this is the final year we have to see this guy managing he's garbage.

 

Well done Terminator! Regards to Charlie's bad decisions, I can only offer more tourette's like incoherent rage rambles.

[saskjayfan]

Well done Terminator! Regards to Charlie's bad decisions, I can only offer more tourette's like incoherent rage rambles.

 

One day of bad decisions, many more examples throughout the year. If Giles doesn't get hurt game 3 of the season, we likely win it. Rowdy misses a game winning homer by 3 inches and we lose. Teoscar has a ball come off his bat at 100+ miles an hour right at a guy for an inning ending double play against Washington with Alford at third. 3 errors and 5 unearned runs in a game in which you score 11 and you lose. We've had a season of base running errors in 18 games.

 

It's frustrating. If the breaks have been even, and we had just half the mental errors this team could be 11 and 7 not 7 and 11. Now with Bo out it seems futile. Maybe the baseball gods will give back over the next 10 days. We certainly deserve a few breaks.

[EZe]

I noted a play earlier in the game where Alford pulled up and let a double sail over his head. Not an error but a play that all the Red Sox and most Rays OF’s routinely make.

Gurriel looked comfortable when subbed in and I didn’t hate the move but that was under the presumption that they have seen something from Teo in the field that has been an improvement on his weak point.

 

I’m guessing it’s a known issue that Teo doesn’t handle angled routes from the corner OF spots well. Always found it odd that they often played him at CF and Grichuk in RF.

 

I thought they had seen improvement but really they just rolled the dice and hoped it wouldn’t bite them. I won’t assume there is something they know that we don’t anymore. The simplest answer is the most likely.

[BigCecil]

One day of bad decisions, many more examples throughout the year. If Giles doesn't get hurt game 3 of the season, we likely win it. Rowdy misses a game winning homer by 3 inches and we lose. Teoscar has a ball come off his bat at 100+ miles an hour right at a guy for an inning ending double play against Washington with Alford at third. 3 errors and 5 unearned runs in a game in which you score 11 and you lose. We've had a season of base running errors in 18 games.

 

It's frustrating. If the breaks have been even, and we had just half the mental errors this team could be 11 and 7 not 7 and 11. Now with Bo out it seems futile. Maybe the baseball gods will give back over the next 10 days. We certainly deserve a few breaks.

 

Its very frustrating. Sloppy base running & D, combined with seriously moronic Mgr decisions, and we are snatched defeat from the jaws of playoff spot victory.

[metafour]

Yeah doesn’t Manfred have control over the draft order? I remember reading that if the season is shorter than X amount of games (think it was 80) that he’d be able to determine the draft order in any way he wanted. That’s a scary thought.

 

If all teams play the majority of their games, the draft order will be determined as it always is. It's pretty silly to assume otherwise.

[metafour]

Quite frankly there’s no bat comparable to Torkelson, Martin or Gonzales. Not even close. Those guys put up some of the most ridiculous college numbers we’ve seen the past five years. There might be a couple popup prep bats of the Riley Green, Zac Veen variety. I think one or two college bats could reach the Alec Bohm tier, which is still tank worthy.

 

There's no Torkelson/Martin, but Jud Fabian is likely right there with Gonzalez if not probably higher due to his greater ceiling (CF > 2B and greater power potential). Its hard to say with no baseball season being played. Brady House is also getting some Kris Bryant comps on the HS side.

[polar bear]

Let's recap today's insane managing.

 

Game 1

Bottom of the 6th, game tied at 2

-Runners on first and second and nobody out. Montoyo bunts with McGuire to put the runners in scoring position.

-The Rays take out Beeks (LHP) and bring in Fairbanks (RHP) to pitch to Drury.

-Montoyo opts to not use Travis Shaw to pinch hit! Shaw bats left so not only would he have had the Lefty-Righty matchup but he's also MILES better than Brandon Drury. Shaw also plays the very same position. This was set up on a tee for Montoyo and he whiffed. WHY WOULDN'T HE PINCH HIT HERE?

-Not only does Drury get out, but he hits a weak dribbler down the line and Grichuk gets thrown out at home. We now have 1 runner in scoring position and 2 outs instead of having 1 runner in scoring position and 0 outs.

 

Top of the 7th, Game Tied

-Montoyo brings in Borucki to face the top of the Rays lineup.

-After a K and a double, Montoyo intentionally walks Yandy Diaz? Why?

-Then the Rays pinch hit to get the matchup and he leaves the left handed Borucki in the game. He walks another batter to load the bases.

-THEN Montoyo brings in Dolis to face the righty Brosseau but Cash pinch hits again to get the matchup with Wendle.

-In the end it didn't matter because Dolis got the job done. But between the Bottom of the 6th and the Top of the 7th, Cash got his matchups damn near every single time! Cash was playing Montoyo like a fiddle.

 

9th Inning, Tie Game

-Montoyo has Romano in and Lowe homers and then puts 2 runners on. Montoyo goes to Shun Yamaguchi to face KK. At this point in the year Romano has looked like a stud but was struggling so I get the hook. But once again the Jays pitchers are continuously on the wrong end of the matchup. Not really complaining here but Yamaguchi has not looked good and he uses him in a big spot. Meh.

 

Bottom 9, Down 1

-NOW Montoyo pinch hits. So he's aware that pinch hitting for Drury with Shaw is a good idea, he just has no idea when to do it. Anderson is one of the best relievers in baseball. Shaw and the rest of the Jays didn't stand a chance at this point. Game over.

 

Game 2

Top 5, Jays up 5-3

-Shoemaker gets tossed. We only have three innings to go and a 2 run lead. We've got roughly 5 pitchers available. Kay and Cole who are decent, Font and Waguespack who are bad and Gaviglio who is trash. Who does Montoyo go to? He picks one of the bad ones in Waguespack.

-He probably picked him because it was the bottom of the order and he wanted Kay to pitch to the top of the order. Well guess what Waguespack stinks so Kay has to pitch to the top of the order anyway, and this time with inherited baserunners. Kay gets out of it but the Rays chip away as one of Wagespack's baserunners scores.

 

Top 7 (the final inning), Jays up 1

-Whoever was calling the shots at this point (since Montoyo was tossed) takes Alford out of the game in the 9th inning and uses Gurriel as a defensive replacement? Lol that's the exact opposite of how you are supposed to use Anthony Alford.

-If that wasn't bad enough, the Jays leave Tellez in the game and Drury at SS. Why not leave Alford in the game, sub Espinal in at SS and move Drury to 1B? Instead, the Jays go with one of the worst defensive teams that they could possibly field to protect a 1 run lead.

-What happens? Meadows hits a 78 mph ground ball past a diving Tellez. According to statcast that ball had an xBA of .370. Yeah that's pretty high but it still means that 73% of the time a ball hit like that is going to be an out. Tellez, one of the worst defensive players in baseball, couldn't come up with the play.

-The rally is on and Teoscar f***s up, allowing them to tie the game. They lost two very close games and they allowed unearned runs in both.

 

Anyway, that ended up a lot longer than I thought it would so thanks for reading. There were just that many boneheaded moves made by Montoyo and whoever replaced him after he got tossed. Hopefully this is the final year we have to see this guy managing he's garbage.

 

Very realistic summary bud.

[glory]

If all teams play the majority of their games, the draft order will be determined as it always is. It's pretty silly to assume otherwise.

 

The Cardinals are not going to have the same number of games played as everyone else, as one example. There might be other teams throughout the course of the season that face that issue depending on potential outbreaks, postponed games, etc. I don't think the draft order will be as cut and dry in this case, and if Manfred has the power to change it (which he does), then I wouldn't assume anything. Finishing with the 2nd worst record may not mean what we think it means. It's up to Manfred and the MLBPA.

[metafour]

The Cardinals are not going to have the same number of games played as everyone else, as one example. There might be other teams throughout the course of the season that face that issue depending on potential outbreaks, postponed games, etc. I don't think the draft order will be as cut and dry in this case, and if Manfred has the power to change it (which he does), then I wouldn't assume anything. Finishing with the 2nd worst record may not mean what we think it means. It's up to Manfred and the MLBPA.

 

Teams not finishing the season would kick-in a draft lottery of some sort. Otherwise, since this is being billed as a real season, expecting anything other than standard procedure is farfetch'd. A complete collapse of the season would bring forth a draft order that combines whatever games were played this year with last year's standings, most likely.

 

What is it that you think Manfred is going to do? I'm aware that he has power to dictate the draft order. He has also been completely shamed by the media over the handling of COVID - so to expect him to do something wild with the draft order is silly. He isn't THAT dumb or incompetent.

 

The way you guys are talking its as if you seem to think he's going to walk out and announce that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox get the Top 3 picks. Yeah, that isn't going to happen.

[Boxcar]

Teams not finishing the season would kick-in a draft lottery of some sort. Otherwise, since this is being billed as a real season, expecting anything other than standard procedure is farfetch'd. A complete collapse of the season would bring forth a draft order that combines whatever games were played this year with last year's standings, most likely.

 

What is it that you think Manfred is going to do? I'm aware that he has power to dictate the draft order. He has also been completely shamed by the media over the handling of COVID - so to expect him to do something wild with the draft order is silly. He isn't THAT dumb or incompetent.

 

The way you guys are talking its as if you seem to think he's going to walk out and announce that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox get the Top 3 picks. Yeah, that isn't going to happen.

 

Might happen for the Red Sox

[Boxcar]

Well done Terminator! Regards to Charlie's bad decisions, I can only offer more tourette's like incoherent rage rambles.

 

There, there. We are all here for you, and most probably going through the same thing.

[metafour]

Might happen for the Red Sox

 

Under which scenario?

 

I can't imagine any situation wherein the team with the worst record doesn't get the first pick that doesn't include a lottery-situation wherein random chance plays a factor. I mean, I guess you could argue that they implement a lottery and then fix the results. But otherwise, I really don't see any situation wherein Manfred just makes up the order in his mind. Why? For the obvious reason that he'd get crucified for any decision that implies even the slightest favoritism.

[Olerud363]

Teams not finishing the season would kick-in a draft lottery of some sort. Otherwise, since this is being billed as a real season, expecting anything other than standard procedure is farfetch'd. A complete collapse of the season would bring forth a draft order that combines whatever games were played this year with last year's standings, most likely.

 

What is it that you think Manfred is going to do? I'm aware that he has power to dictate the draft order. He has also been completely shamed by the media over the handling of COVID - so to expect him to do something wild with the draft order is silly. He isn't THAT dumb or incompetent.

 

The way you guys are talking its as if you seem to think he's going to walk out and announce that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox get the Top 3 picks. Yeah, that isn't going to happen.

 

Manfred 2021 draft rules

 

Top 5 Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Astros, Tampa Bay

 

In between the first and second round there will be a "good of the game" transfer round. These transfers are used to move players who are under performing in bad organizations to good organizations. This is done for the integrity of the game, as it is unfair for hall of fame caliber talents to be hurt by a bad organization.

 

Any young player missing his projected OPS by over 100 points is elligible to be taken in the transfer round. For example Yankees can use the transfer round to select Vladimir Guerrero JR, if Yankees can make Gio Urshella hit like Vlad was supposed to imagine what they can do for Vlad.

[Brownie19]

Under which scenario?

 

I can't imagine any situation wherein the team with the worst record doesn't get the first pick that doesn't include a lottery-situation wherein random chance plays a factor. I mean, I guess you could argue that they implement a lottery and then fix the results. But otherwise, I really don't see any situation wherein Manfred just makes up the order in his mind. Why? For the obvious reason that he'd get crucified for any decision that implies even the slightest favoritism.

 

I think he's just pointed out the Red Sox suck dick and currently have the 2nd worst record in baseball.

[metafour]

I think he's just pointed out the Red Sox suck dick and currently have the 2nd worst record in baseball.

 

Sure, in which case the selection would be legitimate.

[Boxcar]

Under which scenario?

 

I can't imagine any situation wherein the team with the worst record doesn't get the first pick that doesn't include a lottery-situation wherein random chance plays a factor. I mean, I guess you could argue that they implement a lottery and then fix the results. But otherwise, I really don't see any situation wherein Manfred just makes up the order in his mind. Why? For the obvious reason that he'd get crucified for any decision that implies even the slightest favoritism.

 

Well I was going for a joke that since they are really bad they might end up with a bottom three record anyway...but now that I've explained it, it's dead in the water.

[glory]

Teams not finishing the season would kick-in a draft lottery of some sort. Otherwise, since this is being billed as a real season, expecting anything other than standard procedure is farfetch'd. A complete collapse of the season would bring forth a draft order that combines whatever games were played this year with last year's standings, most likely.

 

What is it that you think Manfred is going to do? I'm aware that he has power to dictate the draft order. He has also been completely shamed by the media over the handling of COVID - so to expect him to do something wild with the draft order is silly. He isn't THAT dumb or incompetent.

 

The way you guys are talking its as if you seem to think he's going to walk out and announce that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox get the Top 3 picks. Yeah, that isn't going to happen.

 

I don’t think anyone is expecting anything crazy, but something like record based off 2019-20 or 2018-20 rather than just 2020 record seems like a plausible scenario that Manfred could implement. In that scenario even if the Jays had the 2nd worst record in 2020, they might end up with a pick between 5-10 (haven’t looked at the records). That would also penalize the Red Sox who are clearly tanking due to injuries and Covid. Or since Manfred loves TV deals, he might implement a lottery based off 2020 record that he could air on TV. Who knows.

 

My point was, no one knows what the draft will be like, so where the Jays finish in 2020 might not matter. Although clearly losing a lot won’t hurt the draft slot. With Bo out and a truncated season, I’m fine with a tank job the rest of the way. It’s only 40 more games.