Jays Acquire Randal Grichuk

[Olerud363]

I like Pillar - he reminds me of Devon White in certain ways - And White won WS rings here - it's not just one guy. Looking at pillar in a vacuum is a mistake. If this was a top 3 offensive team and Pillar was our number 9 hitter - he would look GREAT - a 3 WAR solid defensive CF who has 15+ homer pop and can run (not a stealer but speedy) is a fantastic little player when you're paying him peanuts.

 

The problem is he looks vastly worse when you are forced to play him in the lead off spot and the team was last in the AL and near last in baseball on offense - then we start picking at every spot in the order.

 

In the old days of pre statistical metrics - teams (the ones who won) basically valued defense first up the middle (Pitching, Catcher, SS, 2B and CF) and they didn't care too much about the offense. This team won world series titles with what - Manuel Lee, Pat Borders, Devon White up the middle - yes we had Alomar as the exception but the others were not exactly offensive juggernauts but they could play defense, call a game etc.

 

Then you expected big bats at 3B/1B, RF,LF. This stuff worked for decades and will still work. We're pretty solid up the middle - Pillar is a solid defensive player with a plausible bat. Martin too, Travis and Tulo when healthy are more than competent defenders.

 

You have the big bats at 1B and 3B and maybe we get some luck at Morales bounces back and has a bit of an uptick.

 

I understand Atkins saying it's a team that can compete - if the injuries are lowered the team probably could have won 10 more games than they did last year. I mean Estrada tanked for 2 solid months, our best pitcher, Sanchez, basically missed the whole year. JD missed 2 months, Jose Bautista fell off a cliff. It's a bit of a miracle they managed to hang in the thing as long as they did and won as many games as they won considering the division. An awful lot went really wrong. I mean they were playing Goins and Barney every day (shudder).

 

Keep in mind that Manny Lee had a very good offensive year for the 1992 Jays (.343 on base percentage), and that the 1993 team had Tony Fernandez, who hit .300 after arriving from the Mets.

 

And also Devon White was a very good offensive player from 1991 to 1993. White was about +30 on offense and +70!!! on defense (according to fangraphs). Pillar the last 3 years has been -20 on offense and +50 on defense.

 

Also take the late 90s Yankees. Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter were bad defensive players, And they had Chuck Knobloch at second. Posada was OK defensively, but as a unit they were horrible defensively but awesome hitters.

 

The 1985 cardinals had most of their offense from the Ozzie Smith, Tom Herr, and Willie Mcgee. All three were good defensively as well.

 

Anyway throughout time there has been no magic formula. Good teams choose good players. In fact good teams, are probably less attached to prototypes (up the middle players need to be good defensively) than bad teams, and will gladly take good offensive players even if their defense isn't up to par at the position.

[DigitalRock]

If we can add a starter like Cobb, this is probably a 83-87 win team now. Why would we trade Pillar for a reliever

 

If is a big word bro. I would trade Pillar because he isn't very good.

[DigitalRock]

Lol why do people hate Pillar? He's actually one of the more humble players and always gives great effort. Sure he isn't a great hitter but he's still a pretty useful player.

 

Why use hyperbole bro? No one hates him, he just isn't very good, but yeah if we keep him no big deal, we need pitching now

[Jimcanuck]

Two other things:

 

- by the time the Jays are realistic WS contenders again, Pillar will be 32-33 yrs old

- Alford is on the cusp and projects to be a superior CF, and cost controlled

 

It's the perfect time to move Pillar, when he still has reasonable trade value.

[AdamGreenwood]

Why use hyperbole bro? No one hates him, he just isn't very good, but yeah if we keep him no big deal, we need pitching now

 

He's been averaging over 3 WAR a season. Who else do we have that is going to do that for us? He's actually pretty good.

'

[Bobthe4th]

Two other things:

 

- by the time the Jays are realistic WS contenders again, Pillar will be 32-33 yrs old

 

Only if a rebuild happens, which isn't happening right now.

 

- Alford is on the cusp and projects to be a superior CF, and cost controlled

 

Alford isn't going anywhere and can easily be given a role if he does well in AAA.

 

It's the perfect time to move Pillar, when he still has reasonable trade value.

 

That's from the point of view of you have to trade him. However, unless you're getting back 4-6 WAR for the next 2 years from a trade, there is no point. It's irrelevant if we get nothing in a trade for him in 2 or 3 years if the only thing we'd get now is a bullpen piece and some lottery tickets.

[Fiddlehead]

I like Pillar - he reminds me of Devon White in certain ways - And White won WS rings here - it's not just one guy. Looking at pillar in a vacuum is a mistake. If this was a top 3 offensive team and Pillar was our number 9 hitter - he would look GREAT - a 3 WAR solid defensive CF who has 15+ homer pop and can run (not a stealer but speedy) is a fantastic little player when you're paying him peanuts.

 

The problem is he looks vastly worse when you are forced to play him in the lead off spot and the team was last in the AL and near last in baseball on offense - then we start picking at every spot in the order.

 

In the old days of pre statistical metrics - teams (the ones who won) basically valued defense first up the middle (Pitching, Catcher, SS, 2B and CF) and they didn't care too much about the offense. This team won world series titles with what - Manuel Lee, Pat Borders, Devon White up the middle - yes we had Alomar as the exception but the others were not exactly offensive juggernauts but they could play defense, call a game etc.

 

Then you expected big bats at 3B/1B, RF,LF. This stuff worked for decades and will still work. We're pretty solid up the middle - Pillar is a solid defensive player with a plausible bat. Martin too, Travis and Tulo when healthy are more than competent defenders.

 

You have the big bats at 1B and 3B and maybe we get some luck at Morales bounces back and has a bit of an uptick.

 

I understand Atkins saying it's a team that can compete - if the injuries are lowered the team probably could have won 10 more games than they did last year. I mean Estrada tanked for 2 solid months, our best pitcher, Sanchez, basically missed the whole year. JD missed 2 months, Jose Bautista fell off a cliff. It's a bit of a miracle they managed to hang in the thing as long as they did and won as many games as they won considering the division. An awful lot went really wrong. I mean they were playing Goins and Barney every day (shudder).

 

He reminds you of Devo? How? He makes me long for the days when Devo patrolled the OF

[Jimcanuck]

Only if a rebuild happens, which isn't happening right now.

 

A lot of the differences of opinion on here are whether the Jays have a realistic chance at a WS this year. They have a chance (a long shot chance). Not a realistic chance. Shatkins has already said if it wasn't for the fanbase, they would have embarked on a rebuild last year.

 

The smart thing to do is rebuild, to what extent Shatkins does a rebuild vs. a retool (its a continuum) we will see

[justafan]

I happen to like Pillar. If I recall, he was batting quite well before the Slur thing. I'm sure that became a distraction. Pillar is also entertaining and I would think that helps the bench as well.

 

I think the whole team (except Smoak and Donaldson down the stretch) where hurt by Joey's god-awful year. When a full-time player hits 205ish, with tons of strikeouts and GIDP's , its hard for the next guys to be overly excited.

 

IMHO

[Bobthe4th]

A lot of the differences of opinion on here are whether the Jays have a realistic chance at a WS this year. They have a chance (a long shot chance). Not a realistic chance. Shatkins has already said if it wasn't for the fanbase, they would have embarked on a rebuild last year.

 

The smart thing to do is rebuild, to what extent Shatkins does a rebuild vs. a retool (its a continuum) we will see

 

I see the main difference of opinion as whether a rebuild right now is “smart” punting the next 4+ seasons, when we could be contenders within a couple of years without one.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

So you think his physical tools dramatically declined from his age 27 to age 28 season? You said he defense is down. His so called decline was about opportunity and random brain cramps and errors that vary year to year. Defensive stats fluctuate a lot year to year and players peak at different times. The median peak may be 28.5, but a guy like Pillar hasn't had any major injuries. There aren't a lot of GMs in baseball that would be concerned his physical skills won't allow him to be a very similar player defensively to what he is today in his age 29, 30 and age 31 season. Josh Donaldson's last 3 years were his age 29, 30 and 31 seasons...the best of his career.

 

No I didn't say his physical tools will dramatically decline after 29. That may have been someone else. I said that players tend to decline in every way after 29. But I have never used the word "dramatic" in that context.

 

His defense is down, and will continue to get worse. Versus Alford, who will only improve until he hits the "29 and decline" descent.

 

Alford > Pillar, now and certainly in the future.

 

If we can trade Pillar for something for this year and the future, we should make that trade. Maybe a middle reliever and a prospect. I am down with that.

[DigitalRock]

I happen to like Pillar. If I recall, he was batting quite well before the Slur thing. I'm sure that became a distraction. Pillar is also entertaining and I would think that helps the bench as well.

 

I think the whole team (except Smoak and Donaldson down the stretch) where hurt by Joey's god-awful year. When a full-time player hits 205ish, with tons of strikeouts and GIDP's , its hard for the next guys to be overly excited.

 

IMHO

 

Excuses imo, Pillar is just not a good hitter, the Slur had nothing to do with it, it was just regression to the mean. Yeah Bautista was awful, sad to see such a great decline like he did. When a middle of the order guy hits like Bats did it drastically drags down the offense. The team should be better this year, but good enough for playoffs? Possible but unlikely , but we will see what other moves they make.

[Fiddlehead]

Excuses imo, Pillar is just not a good hitter, the Slur had nothing to do with it, it was just regression to the mean. Yeah Bautista was awful, sad to see such a great decline like he did. When a middle of the order guy hits like Bats did it drastically drags down the offense. The team should be better this year, but good enough for playoffs? Possible but unlikely , but we will see what other moves they make.

 

 

First off it wasn’t a slur and if anyone was upset, it’s manufactured outrage. Bottom line, the pitchers pitch better than he hits, regardless of whether a few snowflake fans think Pillar is a big meanie.

[Yippy]

Leone was a very very steady reliever. Not liking this trade

[Jonn]

Holy f*** this thread went off the rails. The last 3 pages are unreadable.

[puphood]

It could be better than Teoscar. Is it 12 million dollars better than him? I don't think so. And Teoscar/Granderson is better anyway. I actually really like Teoscar and Grichuk. Power bats who can field. With adjustments they could become very good players.

 

I saw enough from Pearce to know that he just cannot play the OF at all. He looked like Adam Lind out there. I think if they dealt Morales they could put him at DH.

 

Teoscar deserves a shot at the outfield this spring and if he continues like last fall then Pearce is out hopefully.....Pearce or Moralis gives me little confidence in the DH.....Pearce's advantage over Moralis is he dosn't clog up the bases.

[Shart]

A trade is coming. It’s just a matter of who. Likely candidates are Pearce, Carrera, Morales or Pillar. My bet is it’s either Pillar or Pearce.

[Orgfiller]

Leone was a very very steady reliever. Not liking this trade

 

I'm the biggest Leone fanboy on this board, but to say he was a very very steady reliever is extremely misleading. He had one excellent year this season, previously he had been below replacement level for two seasons. Sure, you could attribute some of those struggles to injury, but as a pitcher if you've struggled with injury before what's not to say you won't again? He could be just as bad as he was the previous two seasons or just as good as this year, such is the nature with non-elite relievers. We'll probably find another of his ilk this season.

 

When you can trade a non-established guy like him along with a lottery ticket soon-to-be-converted prospect for an average (or better) starting OF with CF experience with control, you don't think too much about it.

[Orgfiller]

I think we should all be aboard the Tim Mayza bandwagon if you're not there already. He looked filthy in his few appearances this past year.

 

27:4 K/BB ration in 17 innings!!!

[P2F]

^ owns Mayza in LoD

[Orgfiller]

^ owns Mayza in LoD

 

I specifically targeted him from Abom for a 4th round pick back in mid-October. I'm all in on this guy.

[Laika]

I don't think a trade is necessarily coming.

 

There are a lot of players in the OF/DH/1B mix with bust potential and/or options and/or big injury risks.

[glory]

I don't think a trade is necessarily coming.

 

There are a lot of players in the OF/DH/1B mix with bust potential and/or options and/or big injury risks.

 

Yep, this is probably the position player roster:

 

CA Martin

1B Smoak

2B Travis

SS Tulo

3B Donaldson

RF Grichuk

CF Pillar

LF Granderson

DH Morales

 

BN Pearce

BN Solarte

BN Zeke

BN Maile

 

AAA: Hernandez, Alford, Pompey, Smith Jr, Jansen, Diaz, Gift, Tellez

[Jimcanuck]

Yep, this is probably the position player roster:

 

CA Martin

1B Smoak

2B Travis

SS Tulo

3B Donaldson

RF Grichuk

CF Pillar

LF Granderson

DH Morales

 

BN Pearce

BN Solarte

BN Zeke

BN Maile

 

AAA: Hernandez, Alford, Pompey, Smith Jr, Jansen, Diaz, Gift, Tellez

 

Ugly starting 9

[glory]

Ugly starting 9

 

Good power potential, but yeah, could use some OBP. Travis and Tulo bouncing back, at least the half season they actually spend on the field, would be helpful.

[BlueRocky]

Can he hit righties?

[Abomination]

Ugly starting 9

 

Hell of a lot better than last year.

[Terminator]

Can he hit righties?

 

Both last year and career wise he is noticeably better against righties than lefties. But that is unregressed so not sure what to make of it.

[Jimcanuck]

Hell of a lot better than last year.

 

There will be injuries, same as last year. Improved team, but still a below average lineup.

 

I'm not expecting much from Tulo at the plate at all, even if healthy.

[bones10]

Ugly starting 9

 

You gotta think they're pushing hard for jansen to make the jump to the majors, hopefully he has a good spring training.