Shatkins replacement - What would your choice be ??

[Brownie19]

13 minutes ago, Vladdywagon said:

 

Shapiro is the biggest problem in my opinion.  His hirings have been terrible.  Atkins.  Montoyo.  Schneider.  Scouting.  Development.  Whoever is staffing the high performance department.  

We may have the best facilities in the sport in Dunedin but clearly not the best people running them as our pitchers are always hurt and we aren't drafting and developing stars.  

Shapiro is the problem and always has been.  He hires dumb people and sticks with them.  How he was portrayed in Moneyball may not be far from the truth.  He's good at renovating stadiums but an empty stadium is still an empty stadium if you don't have a team good enough to attract the fans.  The shine will wear off the renovations pretty quickly.

Time to clean house from top to bottom and that starts with the President.

 

If true - then it starts with Rogers.  Those morons almost hired Kenny Williams instead of Shapiro.  Edward Rogers had done some truly insane things over the past few years.  I guess, sell the team?

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

31 minutes ago, max silver said:

I think the high performance department has largely done a good job keeping the team healthy and on the field. This is especially true with the rotation in particular as the team has enjoyed very healthy starting rotations most seasons during this competitive window. On the position player side I think the team has done a good job as well, aside from the recurring calf injuries suffered by Bo and Donaldson during the previous competitive window. 

At the major league level sure.  But Nate Pearson, Ricky Tiedemann, Eric Pardinho among others say hi.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

1 hour ago, Brownie19 said:

If true - then it starts with Rogers.  Those morons almost hired Kenny Williams instead of Shapiro.  Edward Rogers had done some truly insane things over the past few years.  I guess, sell the team?

 

Yeah it was a very poor choice by Rogers to hire Shapiro.

But on the plus side they have opened the purse strings to new payroll heights and seem to really want to win.  

I'm OK with Rogers as owners as long as they hire the right guy to run the team.  They have the money, so go out and hire the next Friedman or (gasp) Anthopoulos.  Stay out of the way, let them rebuild from the ground up properly, and support them with a top tier payroll when necessary so we can build and keep a strong team together and add when necessary.

I'm willing to go into the wilderness on a complete teardown if its done by the right person.  These buffoons in charge right now just continue to make the worse decisions again and again.  At least there would be a light at the end of the tunnel.  Right now only darkness.

Its almost like they are actively trolling the Blue Jays fan base sometimes.  They just continually take the wrong fork in the road whenever a decision needs to be made.

 

[max silver]

2 hours ago, Vladdywagon said:

Shapiro is the problem and always has been.  He hires dumb people and sticks with them.  How he was portrayed in Moneyball may not be far from the truth.  He's good at renovating stadiums but an empty stadium is still an empty stadium if you don't have a team good enough to attract the fans.  The shine will wear off the renovations pretty quickly.

Time to clean house from top to bottom and that starts with the President.

 

I don't think I've even gotten the impression that anyone that's worked under the Blue Jays was outright "dumb". I haven't always agreed with Schneider's or Atkins' decisions but neither of these guys strikes me as being unintelligent in the slightest. Atkins takes a lot of flak for talking like an AI generated speech algorithm which is just a bunch of noise and more of a personality quirk. I haven't always agreed with Schneider's decision making but he's very articulate and has generally shown some level of logic behind most of his decisions when asked (with the decision to bat Springer leadoff for so long being my primary gripe for the last few seasons).

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

7 hours ago, max silver said:

I don't think I've even gotten the impression that anyone that's worked under the Blue Jays was outright "dumb". I haven't always agreed with Schneider's or Atkins' decisions but neither of these guys strikes me as being unintelligent in the slightest. Atkins takes a lot of flak for talking like an AI generated speech algorithm which is just a bunch of noise and more of a personality quirk. I haven't always agreed with Schneider's decision making but he's very articulate and has generally shown some level of logic behind most of his decisions when asked (with the decision to bat Springer leadoff for so long being my primary gripe for the last few seasons

Since defending Atkins and Shapiro seems to be your thing, this answer doesn't surprise me.  

I'm not saying Mark or Ross Atkins couldn't pass a grade 5 math test when I say they are dumb.

Atkins makes dumb baseball decisions, as does Shapiro.  If you think otherwise, well, enjoy the Kool aid.

 

 

[max silver]

12 hours ago, Vladdywagon said:

Since defending Atkins and Shapiro seems to be your thing, this answer doesn't surprise me.  

I'm not saying Mark or Ross Atkins couldn't pass a grade 5 math test when I say they are dumb.

Atkins makes dumb baseball decisions, as does Shapiro.  If you think otherwise, well, enjoy the Kool aid.

 

 

You literally said that Mark Shapiro only hired dumb people. This would just like if I were to say that you are a dumb person because some of the posts you make are dumb.

[Carlos Danger]

20 hours ago, max silver said:

I think the high performance department has largely done a good job keeping the team healthy and on the field. This is especially true with the rotation in particular as the team has enjoyed very healthy starting rotations most seasons during this competitive window. On the position player side I think the team has done a good job as well, aside from the recurring calf injuries suffered by Bo and Donaldson during the previous competitive window. 

Didn’t things get testy/contentious between the Jays and Donaldson his last year over the subject of his injury treatment/rehab? 

[wilko]

1 minute ago, Carlos Danger said:

Didn’t things get testy/contentious between the Jays and Donaldson his last year over the subject of his injury treatment/rehab? 

He blamed the Jays for his bum leg. 

[max silver]

51 minutes ago, wilko said:

He blamed the Jays for his bum leg. 

Yeah he mentioned that they were performing some sort of high risk exercise early in the spring before his body was fully conditioned. 

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

7 hours ago, max silver said:

You literally said that Mark Shapiro only hired dumb people. This would just like if I were to say that you are a dumb person because some of the posts you make are dumb.

Quit arguing semantics, you know very well the point I am trying to make.  

[mphenhef]

On 1/6/2025 at 12:18 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I'm always hesitant to name names but these are the orgs I would look at to poach an AGM:

Dodgers (duh)
Brewers (seriously, don't understand how people overlook what they've done)
Cleveland (basically the same as Milwaukee, though teams poach them constantly)
Twins (they poached the right Cle people, their pitching system and farm are quite nice)
Rays (probably overplayed but they still produce a ton of smart baseball people)

Somehow we managed to grab Montoyo from the Rays.  It’s like they target the non smart ones from the other orgs.

[mphenhef]

On 1/6/2025 at 4:14 PM, Vladdywagon said:

 

Yeah it was a very poor choice by Rogers to hire Shapiro.

But on the plus side they have opened the purse strings to new payroll heights and seem to really want to win.  

I'm OK with Rogers as owners as long as they hire the right guy to run the team.  They have the money, so go out and hire the next Friedman or (gasp) Anthopoulos.  Stay out of the way, let them rebuild from the ground up properly, and support them with a top tier payroll when necessary so we can build and keep a strong team together and add when necessary.

I'm willing to go into the wilderness on a complete teardown if its done by the right person.  These buffoons in charge right now just continue to make the worse decisions again and again.  At least there would be a light at the end of the tunnel.  Right now only darkness.

Its almost like they are actively trolling the Blue Jays fan base sometimes.  They just continually take the wrong fork in the road whenever a decision needs to be made.

 

So part of the reason payroll is able to expand is due to the hire of Shapiro and his efforts on the ballpark and facilities renovations to generate additional revenue for the club.  From the day he was hired it was made very clear he was a business hire over a baseball hire.

[PitaBaby]

4 hours ago, mphenhef said:

So part of the reason payroll is able to expand is due to the hire of Shapiro and his efforts on the ballpark and facilities renovations to generate additional revenue for the club.  From the day he was hired it was made very clear he was a business hire over a baseball hire.

100% agreed.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

I'd argue that the #1 reason payroll has increased is because of the rejuvenation of the fan base in 2015 showed how much money Rogers could make by fielding a competitive and exciting team.

Shapiro was able to convince Rogers, but he wouldn't have had a snowballs chance in hell had 2015 not happened.  

And what's ironic is that Shapiro himself could end up putting this team back into the wilderness it was in before 2015, where the interest in the team drops leading to small crowds and low TV #'s once again.  If Vladdy and Bo walk, and fan interest wanes, Rogers could just go back to low payrolls again since you can spend $100 million instead of $240 million to finish 5th in the East.

He stepped into a fantastic situation left for him by AA and found a way to mess it all up.

Every day these buffoons aren't fired is another day closer to the nightmare scenario.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

So Brownie why the thumbs down to my post?  Are you Atkins burner account?

[Eat My Shatkins]

"A fantastic situation left for him by AA..."

 

WTF?

[max silver]

1 hour ago, Vladdywagon said:

I'd argue that the #1 reason payroll has increased is because of the rejuvenation of the fan base in 2015 showed how much money Rogers could make by fielding a competitive and exciting team.

Shapiro was able to convince Rogers, but he wouldn't have had a snowballs chance in hell had 2015 not happened.  

And what's ironic is that Shapiro himself could end up putting this team back into the wilderness it was in before 2015, where the interest in the team drops leading to small crowds and low TV #'s once again.  If Vladdy and Bo walk, and fan interest wanes, Rogers could just go back to low payrolls again since you can spend $100 million instead of $240 million to finish 5th in the East.

He stepped into a fantastic situation left for him by AA and found a way to mess it all up.

Every day these buffoons aren't fired is another day closer to the nightmare scenario.

Shapiro took over at a time where there was a short term window team in place and a mid to lower 20's ranked farm system. He had no assets in the upper minors to use to supplement the team as the previous guy sold the farm on the way out the door, and payroll was largely maxed out as the previous guy assembled an expensive aging team that was quickly moving past it's best before date. Let's not try to pretend like Shapiro took over a great young MLB team with a stacked farm team because both of those aren't remotely true and are nothing more than a completely bad faith argument. 

Shapiro ironically finds himself in a similar situation as he arrived with in an aging expensive team and a low to mid 20's ranked farm system. I believe that one way or another a decision regarding Vlad needs to be make as he can be a cornerstone player to build around if he's signed to an extension. If that isn't possible he should be moved for the best return possible to start the process of building a new core. 

[max silver]

1 hour ago, Vladdywagon said:

So Brownie why the thumbs down to my post?  Are you Atkins burner account?

Are you Steve Simmons burner account? You are using the same tact as the likes of Steve Simmons, Cathal Kelly, Rosie D'imanno etc. of cherry picking small bits of information that are technically true, but then completely twisting the facts into a fake narrative that's tinged with emotionally charged opinions that are easily refuted with basic logic.

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

1 hour ago, Eat My Shatkins said:

"A fantastic situation left for him by AA..."

 

WTF?

Team had just made it to the ALCS and rejuvenated the fanbase to levels no one thought possible.  Team was still good enough to make it again to the ALCS the next year.  

Why would you WTF that?  If 2015 never happened this franchise would not be running 240 million dollar payrolls today.  How can you even debate that?

[Eat My Shatkins]

2 minutes ago, Vladdywagon said:

Team had just made it to the ALCS and rejuvenated the fanbase to levels no one thought possible.  Team was still good enough to make it again to the ALCS the next year.  

Why would you WTF that?  If 2015 never happened this franchise would not be running 240 million dollar payrolls today.  How can you even debate that?

The team was on the verge of a rebuild with a very weak prospect pool when Shapiro came in. Read max's post. That's not a fantastic situation to be left to deal with lol

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

1 hour ago, max silver said:

Shapiro took over at a time where there was a short term window team in place and a mid to lower 20's ranked farm system. He had no assets in the upper minors to use to supplement the team as the previous guy sold the farm on the way out the door, and payroll was largely maxed out as the previous guy assembled an expensive aging team that was quickly moving past it's best before date. Let's not try to pretend like Shapiro took over a great young MLB team with a stacked farm team because both of those aren't remotely true and are nothing more than a completely bad faith argument. 

Shapiro ironically finds himself in a similar situation as he arrived with in an aging expensive team and a low to mid 20's ranked farm system. I believe that one way or another a decision regarding Vlad needs to be make as he can be a cornerstone player to build around if he's signed to an extension. If that isn't possible he should be moved for the best return possible to start the process of building a new core. 

Sold the farm to create the most exciting team we'd had in over 20 years, a team that should have won it all and nearly did if not for some stupid Amish kid and the s***** ump in Game 6.

And he didn't leave Shapiro with nothing - he left him with a team that went back to the ALCS in 2016, and with Vladdy Jr!

It was Shatkins' failure to start the rebuild of that team before the 2017 season that f***ed us over and resulted in the longer rebuild as we got jack for Donaldson,  

You and Brownie will go through a wall to defend these buffoons, and I just don't get it.  It makes no sense unless you are actually just Ross Atkins and Mark Shapiro running burner accounts.  

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

2 minutes ago, Eat My Shatkins said:

The team was on the verge of a rebuild with a very weak prospect pool when Shapiro came in. Read max's post. That's not a fantastic situation to be left to deal with lol

No they were a year away from the expected rebuild.  They were left with a fantastic team that made it to the ALCS in 2016!  And then these turds refused to rebuild and instead screwed up the JD situation and didn't start the rebuild in 2017 like they should have.  That is on THEM.

 

How many times do these guys have to keep screwing up for you to catch on?  They make the wrong choice almost every single time!  Do you know how hard that is to do?

 

 

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

You know what, I don't have to keep up this stupid argument with Max and Brownie.  The proof is in the pudding - these guys suck at running the team, and pretty much everyone in the fanbase knows it.

 

 

[Eat My Shatkins]

1 minute ago, Vladdywagon said:

No they were a year away from the expected rebuild.  They were left with a fantastic team that made it to the ALCS in 2016!  And then these turds refused to rebuild and instead screwed up the JD situation and didn't start the rebuild in 2017 like they should have.  That is on THEM.

 

How many times do these guys have to keep screwing up for you to catch on?  They make the wrong choice almost every single time!  Do you know how hard that is to do?

 

 

Taking over with only a year left before an inevitable rebuild is not "a fantastic situation" lol

A fantastic situation is taking over in Atlanta when AA took over there. A young team that's poised for mutiple playoff a appearances and multiple runs at a world series

[max silver]

1 minute ago, Vladdywagon said:

No they were a year away from the expected rebuild.  They were left with a fantastic team that made it to the ALCS in 2016!  And then these turds refused to rebuild and instead screwed up the JD situation and didn't start the rebuild in 2017 like they should have.  That is on THEM.

 

How many times do these guys have to keep screwing up for you to catch on?  They make the wrong choice almost every single time!  Do you know how hard that is to do?

 

 

There has been plenty of speculation that the team was not allowed to do a scorched earth rebuild as Rogers wouldn't allow it. I'll avoid taking utilizing your tactics and making this is a definitive statement that Rogers 100% didn't allow the team to rebuild. Not everything is so perfectly black and white you know, and a lot of situations are very nuanced. 

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

Just now, max silver said:

There has been plenty of speculation that the team was not allowed to do a scorched earth rebuild as Rogers wouldn't allow it. I'll avoid taking utilizing your tactics and making this is a definitive statement that Rogers 100% didn't allow the team to rebuild. Not everything is so perfectly black and white you know, and a lot of situations are very nuanced. 

So you think Ross and Mark have done a good job then?  😆

[Delete_My_Account_Thanks]

I think Eatmyshatkins is James Click.  Who knew we had all 3 of these guys posting on here?

[max silver]

5 minutes ago, Vladdywagon said:

Sold the farm to create the most exciting team we'd had in over 20 years, a team that should have won it all and nearly did if not for some stupid Amish kid and the s***** ump in Game 6.

And he didn't leave Shapiro with nothing - he left him with a team that went back to the ALCS in 2016, and with Vladdy Jr!

It was Shatkins' failure to start the rebuild of that team before the 2017 season that f***ed us over and resulted in the longer rebuild as we got jack for Donaldson,  

You and Brownie will go through a wall to defend these buffoons, and I just don't get it.  It makes no sense unless you are actually just Ross Atkins and Mark Shapiro running burner accounts.  

That exciting team didn't win the world series in either season, and the GM at the time going all in at the time and selling the farm is arguably the biggest single reason that turned into a short term window team. Maybe you believe it was worth it, but I often question whether it actually was as the team needed to be rebuilt shortly afterwards. So many of the moves were incredibly short sighted in nature and had zero view towards the future. 

That's nice the team was left with a single top prospect in the system to go along with the one year window team, that totally changes the discussion. That's exactly the same as the situation a certain GM we love discussing ten years after the fact found himself in when he took over a team with MLB's best farm system and a stacked young MLB team that was just hitting his stride.

The rebuild basically lasted three seasons as the team was back in the playoffs in the 2020 season. I don't know how much faster you think a rebuild needs to be, that's pretty damn fast in my view. 

[max silver]

2 minutes ago, Vladdywagon said:

I think Eatmyshatkins is James Click.  Who knew we had all 3 of these guys posting on here?

Do you have anything of worth to add to the discussion instead of a bunch of childish insults? You are making it increasingly difficult to take any of your opinions seriously.

[Eat My Shatkins]

4 minutes ago, Vladdywagon said:

I think Eatmyshatkins is James Click.  Who knew we had all 3 of these guys posting on here?

And I think you're a simpleton who wakes up in the morning, stubs his toe on the way to the bathroom and cusses out Shapiro and Atkins for it.