General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2025)

[Spanky__99]

2 hours ago, max silver said:

I don't think we necessarily have much of a read on Bo's financial priorities. My take on why he turned the pre-arb raise was a bit of a mild protest due to his inherent dislike of the system vs an indication that he is chasing max dollars. He's been saying a lot of encouraging things publicly about wanting to remain a Blue Jay long term to finish his career with Vlad, has been much more vocal this season about how much he's enjoying himself, and there was recent chatter about Bo and the team undergoing extension discussions so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he were willing to sign more of a mutually beneficial extension offer vs attempting to squeeze maximum millions from the organization such as Vlad did.

It's true, Bo has never said he's going to FA, it's simply all speculation. Himself and Manoah refused the raise to raise the point of the process for the MLBPA and which they both agree it's stupid. Nothing wrong with that, there's many players around the MLB that do the same.

[Nexii]

1 minute ago, Spanky__99 said:

It's true, Bo has never said he's going to FA, it's simply all speculation. Himself and Manoah refused the raise to raise the point of the process for the MLBPA and which they both agree it's stupid. Nothing wrong with that, there's many players around the MLB that do the same.

I agree with Bo on this. Have stat nerds come up with a modern formula for arb raises and just apply it. 

[Spanky__99]

24 minutes ago, Nexii said:

I agree with Bo on this. Have stat nerds come up with a modern formula for arb raises and just apply it. 

I don't believe so, Arb raises come as a what have you done for me lately scale, I'm assuming that money I comp'd as a similar deal to Adames in FA, maybe they can cut a deal if Bo agrees to move to 2nd at the same money. He has the leverage though, I'm sure plenty of teams take him on at SS.

PS. I agree with you, Bo, Manoah and all MLB guys that refuse it to prove a point are in the right as it's stupid, they refused those raises pre-arb by the way as the money was minimal, Bo signed an extension to avoid his arb years if I recall correctly. 

 

[John_Havok]

43 minutes ago, Spanky__99 said:

I don't believe so, Arb raises come as a what have you done for me lately scale, I'm assuming that money I comp'd as a similar deal to Adames in FA, maybe they can cut a deal if Bo agrees to move to 2nd at the same money. He has the leverage though, I'm sure plenty of teams take him on at SS.

PS. I agree with you, Bo, Manoah and all MLB guys that refuse it to prove a point are in the right as it's stupid, they refused those raises pre-arb by the way as the money was minimal, Bo signed an extension to avoid his arb years if I recall correctly. 

 

You do. The raises that Manoah amd Bo turned down were pre-arb, and just generally done to try to reward guys a bit for having a great year. 

Each raise would have even helped them when arb finally started since arb numbers are bases on your pre-arb salary. 

I understand the need to protest the crappy arb system though and I think in general it still needs re-working so the people playing the most games and giving the most production are the ones getting paid commesurately.

Free agency is great for superstars, but the average players get boned 

[Nexii]

16 minutes ago, John_Havok said:

You do. The raises that Manoah amd Bo turned down were pre-arb, and just generally done to try to reward guys a bit for having a great year. 

Each raise would have even helped them when arb finally started since arb numbers are bases on your pre-arb salary. 

I understand the need to protest the crappy arb system though and I think in general it still needs re-working so the people playing the most games and giving the most production are the ones getting paid commesurately.

Free agency is great for superstars, but the average players get boned 

Yea it's more that the arb process uses dated metrics, its very subjective, and needlessly adversarial. Of course giving some % of similar FA contracts (and/or WAR) depending on arb year would make sense, but that's not how it works

Younger players probably just want to enjoy the off season and not deal with this sorta stuff

[jmomcc]

Bo is my favourite player beyond kirk, and i love contact guys who can get to anything. It is truly a complete outlier skill. i also think its a bit underrated in modern baseball. 

However, its a skill that really degrades over time. So, if you are the front office, you need to really weigh a big free agent contract. 

[John_Havok]

2 minutes ago, jmomcc said:

Bo is my favourite player beyond kirk, and i love contact guys who can get to anything. It is truly a complete outlier skill. i also think its a bit underrated in modern baseball. 

However, its a skill that really degrades over time. So, if you are the front office, you need to really weigh a big free agent contract. 

And if his range isnt great at SS, he'll have the same range issues at 2b. 

We see what he'll most likely look  like at 30ish and onward with Clement. Theyre both the same types of hitters, though Bo has more power, and Clement has better D and speed. 

[BatFlip]

35 minutes ago, jmomcc said:

Bo is my favourite player beyond kirk, and i love contact guys who can get to anything. It is truly a complete outlier skill. i also think its a bit underrated in modern baseball. 

However, its a skill that really degrades over time. So, if you are the front office, you need to really weigh a big free agent contract. 

It would be interesting to see some past comps for guys like Bo as I tend to agree that his skill set is going to erode rapidly through his 30s. 

I don't want to bodyshame, but he looks like he's plumped up a bit and his sprint speed has dramatically declined over the years.  He broke into the league at 28.4 ft/s (83rd percentile) and he's now at 26.2 ft/s (23rd percentile).  Basically he's a minus defender with well below average speed at age 27. 

I also love contact guys, but you can't pay this guy a premium shortstop FA deal and expect a good outcome.  

 

 

[Spanky__99]

3 hours ago, John_Havok said:

You do. The raises that Manoah amd Bo turned down were pre-arb, and just generally done to try to reward guys a bit for having a great year. 

Each raise would have even helped them when arb finally started since arb numbers are bases on your pre-arb salary. 

I understand the need to protest the crappy arb system though and I think in general it still needs re-working so the people playing the most games and giving the most production are the ones getting paid commesurately.

Free agency is great for superstars, but the average players get boned 

Yeah, that's what I said. lol.

 

[John_Havok]

Mlb.com power rankings now have the Jays at #2 overall, behind the Cubs #1

Detroit dropped all the way to 8

[John_Havok]

Wonder how Varsho's return is impacted by Buffalo's last 2 games being cancelled due to rain. 

[Masterbather]

54 minutes ago, John_Havok said:

Wonder how Varsho's return is impacted by Buffalo's last 2 games being cancelled due to rain. 

If the dude is healthy, the dude is healthy, just bring him back. We don't need him helping Buffalo win games we need him helping the Blue Jays win games.

[max silver]

15 hours ago, BatFlip said:

It would be interesting to see some past comps for guys like Bo as I tend to agree that his skill set is going to erode rapidly through his 30s. 

I don't want to bodyshame, but he looks like he's plumped up a bit and his sprint speed has dramatically declined over the years.  He broke into the league at 28.4 ft/s (83rd percentile) and he's now at 26.2 ft/s (23rd percentile).  Basically he's a minus defender with well below average speed at age 27. 

I also love contact guys, but you can't pay this guy a premium shortstop FA deal and expect a good outcome.  

 

 

Bo does look like he's gotten pleasantly plump this season for sure. I'd wager a guess that most of the lost speed is a direct result of the litany of leg injuries he's suffered from in recent years, with the calf injuries in particular being the biggest factor. It certainly can't help that he's carrying a few extra pounds, but this could be something he could work on reducing over the offseason as he could focus on improving his body vs being stuck in more of a rehabilitation mode working on recovering from injury.

[mphenhef]

On 7/27/2025 at 7:30 PM, John_Havok said:

You do. The raises that Manoah amd Bo turned down were pre-arb, and just generally done to try to reward guys a bit for having a great year. 

Each raise would have even helped them when arb finally started since arb numbers are bases on your pre-arb salary. 

I understand the need to protest the crappy arb system though and I think in general it still needs re-working so the people playing the most games and giving the most production are the ones getting paid commesurately.

Free agency is great for superstars, but the average players get boned 

I got a chuckle out of Bryce Harper with his $300 million loudly spouting off to Manfred that the players are willing to lose a year of pay.  I wonder if the guys who are pre-arb/back-end of the roster feel that way or are just too scared to speak up over his personality.

[max silver]

1 hour ago, mphenhef said:

I got a chuckle out of Bryce Harper with his $300 million loudly spouting off to Manfred that the players are willing to lose a year of pay.  I wonder if the guys who are pre-arb/back-end of the roster feel that way or are just too scared to speak up over his personality.

I really don't think that the MLBPA does a very good job looking after the lower and middle tier player in the CBA negotiations. The negotiating committee tends to be populated by some of the highest wage earners in the sport and as such the CBA deals tend to be skewed in a fashion that ensures that the stars continue to earn top dollar while everyone else is largely left fighting for the remaining scraps. 

[Brownie19]

15 minutes ago, max silver said:

I really don't think that the MLBPA does a very good job looking after the lower and middle tier player in the CBA negotiations. The negotiating committee tends to be populated by some of the highest wage earners in the sport and as such the CBA deals tend to be skewed in a fashion that ensures that the stars continue to earn top dollar while everyone else is largely left fighting for the remaining scraps. 

So true.  That all sounds oddly familiar doesn't it?  

[max silver]

4 minutes ago, Brownie19 said:

So true.  That all sounds oddly familiar doesn't it?  

That pretty much represents society as a whole as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. 

[Terminator]

MLBPA does a good job and it's the best player union by far.

Bryce Harper is completely right and I love that he told Manfred off. Anyone who supports a salary cap is taking the side of the billionaire owners over the millionaire players (the ones who actually have the talent to entertain us all) and the idea that a salary cap somehow helps out the mid and lower tier players is wrong.

[max silver]

1 minute ago, Terminator said:

MLBPA crushes it and it's the best player union by far.

Anyone who supports a salary cap is taking the side of the billionaire owners over the millionaire players (the ones who actually have the talent to entertain us all).

I don't agree. I think that the luxury tax acts just like a salary cap except it doesn't come along with a requisite salary floor to force the tightwad owners to spend money on their teams. I believe the MLBPA would be far better off to finally accept a salary cap that forces the owners to open up the books and fully share revenue at a 50/50 split with the players.

[John_Havok]

4 minutes ago, Terminator said:

MLBPA does a good job and it's the best player union by far.

Bryce Harper is completely right and I love that he told Manfred off. Anyone who supports a salary cap is taking the side of the billionaire owners over the millionaire players (the ones who actually have the talent to entertain us all) and the idea that a salary cap somehow helps out the mid and lower tier players is wrong.

I don't think its that black and white. I think there should be a cap/floor system but it shouldn't be as tight as the NHLs where you can just see with near certainty who's gonna leave and who might stay 2 years in advance 

 

[Terminator]

7 minutes ago, max silver said:

I don't agree. I think that the luxury tax acts just like a salary cap except it doesn't come along with a requisite salary floor to force the tightwad owners to spend money on their teams. I believe the MLBPA would be far better off to finally accept a salary cap that forces the owners to open up the books and fully share revenue at a 50/50 split with the players.

Insane take lol. Getting the Pirates to spend 20 more mil a year (which they should be doing anyway!) at the expense of curtailing hundreds of millions from the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Jays and a handful of other of teams is not going to lead to high player salaries.

[Terminator]

45 minutes ago, max silver said:

I really don't think that the MLBPA does a very good job looking after the lower and middle tier player in the CBA negotiations. The negotiating committee tends to be populated by some of the highest wage earners in the sport and as such the CBA deals tend to be skewed in a fashion that ensures that the stars continue to earn top dollar while everyone else is largely left fighting for the remaining scraps. 

Did you know that in MLB your pension vests after just 43 days on the active roster? In the NBA and NFL it takes 3 full years. Not bad for a league that supposedly doesn't look out for the lower and middle tier players.

[max silver]

2 minutes ago, Terminator said:

Insane take lol. Getting the Pirates to spend 20 more mil a year at the expense of curtailing hundreds of million from the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees and a handful of other of teams is not going to lead to high player salaries.

You are assuming that the salary cap would be set at a low level in the $200 million range vs settling in at closer to $350-400 million, and that the floor would be set barely above where the el cheapo teams are already spending. Of course the players wouldn't accept levels like that, but if MLB presented a cap system where both sides benefit it could actually be possible. 

[Terminator]

Just now, max silver said:

You are assuming that the salary cap would be set at a low level in the $200 million range vs settling in at closer to $350-400 million, and that the floor would be set barely above where the el cheapo teams are already spending. Of course the players wouldn't accept levels like that, but if MLB presented a cap system where both sides benefit it could actually be possible. 

You are assuming that there is a cap system that does anything other than benefitting the owners.

MLB is making record revenues right now. How about we just instill a floor with no cap? And if the cheap owners can't turn a profit they can then sell the team for 10x what they paid for it?

[max silver]

11 minutes ago, Terminator said:

You are assuming that there is a cap system that does anything other than benefitting the owners.

MLB is making record revenues right now. How about we just instill a floor with no cap? And if the cheap owners can't turn a profit they can then sell the team for 10x what they paid for it?

MLB would never agree to implement a floor without extracting their pound of flesh from the player's union. This discussion is obviously moot as the MLBPA would never accept a salary cap system under any circumstances, but I still maintain the opinion that the current system is actually pretty skewed to favor the owners at this point.

[Brownie19]

21 minutes ago, Terminator said:

Did you know that in MLB your pension vests after just 43 days on the active roster? In the NBA and NFL it takes 3 full years. Not bad for a league that supposedly doesn't look out for the lower and middle tier players.

$34K a year if they wait until Age 62 (if they only have 43 days of active roster service time).

[Brownie19]

30 minutes ago, Terminator said:

Insane take lol. Getting the Pirates to spend 20 more mil a year (which they should be doing anyway!) at the expense of curtailing hundreds of millions from the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Jays and a handful of other of teams is not going to lead to high player salaries.

I don't really want to get into it, but there's probably an argument that a floor, and a smaller gap between the top and the bottom might create a better on-field product, which could help the league as a whole.  Some angle where it's not just all about money (even if helping the league as a whole has a monetary benefit to it as well).

That said - spending money doesn't always work in baseball, albeit NOT spending money seems to provide pretty consistent results too (which sucks).  Interesting discussion.

[Terminator]

6 minutes ago, max silver said:

MLB would never agree to implement a floor without extracting their pound of flesh from the player's union. This discussion is obviously moot as the MLBPA would never accept a salary cap system under any circumstances, but I still maintain the opinion that the current system is actually pretty skewed to favor the owners at this point.

Yes, MLB owners are making out like bandits. Let's not give them a cap on top of it.

[Terminator]

4 minutes ago, Brownie19 said:

$34K a year if they wait until Age 62 (if they only have 43 days of active roster service time).

That's pretty damn good for a guy who gets a cup of coffee. 

[Brownie19]

14 minutes ago, Terminator said:

That's pretty damn good for a guy who gets a cup of coffee. 

Is it?  Typically that cup of coffee takes 5-8 years in the minors where they make next to nothing, riding the buses in little sh*tholes around America.  Plus the cost of all the travel ball, college ball, training, etc. it took to even get drafted.  43 days is really short though - I'll give you that - so maybe that's appropriate.

The cost to get to the ML level is insane.  It's costing me $15K+ per year for my son to play U15 elite ball in Ontario FFS and he isn't going anywhere.