Jays Acquiring Andres Gimenez

[Joltin Joe]

There next to 0 chance at a pre-free agency extension that's for sure. He'd be an idiot not to go to FA and let teams compete against each other rather than just letting 1 team do it. Even though he's not in Soto's league thus far in his career, if he has a full year like his second half he's gonna get a pile. He's already turned down whatever extension offers the Jays have offered in the past, which I have no idea what dollar value they were in, but... if i had to guess they were in the 200 million range probably pretty early on. Pure speculation on the number of course, but we know they've been talking every offseason since at least 2021.

 

Vlad's just betting on himself like Soto did. It just remains to be seen how it works out for him.

Can't lose Vlad for nil though

[John_Havok]

Can't lose Vlad for nil though

 

I agree in theory but Vlad has to agree to make that work. If it took 550 million 15 years to do it tomorrow... would you?

 

I wouldn't.

[Brownie19]

Can't lose Vlad for nil though

 

Then let's trade him. He isn't going to sign here and his value is as high as it's been since 2021.

[jaysblue]

Then let's trade him. He isn't going to sign here and his value is as high as it's been since 2021.

 

Yeah I hope the Jays would explore that possibility. If Atkins knows Vladdy is going to go to free agency and not sign a contract extension, have to explore that option. His value isn't going to be any higher like you said, with Soto just coming off the board.

[xposbrad]

Then let's trade him. He isn't going to sign here and his value is as high as it's been since 2021.

 

I don’t think you’ll get as much back as you think. If he had 2 years left or signed then maybe but he’s making 22+m and you only get one year and then he’s hitting FA.

[Spanky99]

I don’t think you’ll get as much back as you think. If he had 2 years left or signed then maybe but he’s making 22+m and you only get one year and then he’s hitting FA.

 

lol

[gruber92]

You guys are quickly forgetting that the emphasis on this season is for Rogers to recoup the money spent on the renovations and more. They're not trading Vladdy or Bo this season in dreams that they get in to the playoffs and make a run. This is how delusional ownership and current management are right now. Vladdy and Bo will walk and we'll get a few comp picks, get use to it.

[Olerud363]

I donÂ’t think youÂ’ll get as much back as you think. If he had 2 years left or signed then maybe but heÂ’s making 22+m and you only get one year and then heÂ’s hitting FA.

 

He is making between 31-35 million this year. Vlad has always gotten 85% off what Soto gets, coming off of years 40% or less as valuable in WAR... now he's going into final Arb with a higher bbref WAR and 90% as high fWAR, and better traditional stats then Soto had going into final arb.

[Stangstag]

You guys are quickly forgetting that the emphasis on this season is for Rogers to recoup the money spent on the renovations and more. They're not trading Vladdy or Bo this season in dreams that they get in to the playoffs and make a run. This is how delusional ownership and current management are right now. Vladdy and Bo will walk and we'll get a few comp picks, get use to it.

 

Yeah I think you’re right. They could also potentially be traded at the deadline if we’re out of it, lets just hope they’re both playing well and both healthy at that time.

[Olerud363]

He is making between 31-35 million this year. Vlad has always gotten 85% off what Soto gets, coming off of years 40% or less as valuable in WAR... now he's going into final Arb with a higher bbref WAR and 90% as high fWAR, and better traditional stats then Soto had going into final arb.

 

 

Soto went into free agency with 36 bWAR. If Vlad has a good offensive year and cleans up his baserunning, defense, and takes a few more walks he can go into free agency with 85% of Soto's lifetime bWAR and an equivalent final two years.

 

I know people say 'easier said than done', however I think we are in a new era here. If agents and players start realizing that contracts are based on WAR, they are going to take a closer look at the formulas, and clean up their game to maximize the WAR score.

 

So if it is so easy why not do it allready? Listen to Pat and Buck for a few games. Ballplayers traditionally believe things that aren't WAR friendly. And maybe only now, with 10 years of WAR and contracts being decided on it, will it maybe become more of a thought in how players approach the game. I totally think it is possible for players to change their games a bit, when they realize it is better for the team and their wallets to maximize WAR scores, and as they understand how they are calculated they will adjust their game.

 

My prediction is Vlad gets 8 WAR this year, with a good hitting season, a more patient approach and combined with cleaning up the baserunning and defense to Soto level. This will lead to a 700 million + contract

[Ryu In My House]

it honestly sounds like the best long term scenario for this franchise is for the team to not do very well, but have unreal seasons from Vlad and Bo, who are then traded at the deadline for a fistful of prospects and controls. I am guessing both hauls individually would be better than the Kikuchi haul - at least I would hope. I guess you could add some other decent expiring contracts to the list.

[burlingtonbandit]

it honestly sounds like the best long term scenario for this franchise is for the team to not do very well, but have unreal seasons from Vlad and Bo, who are then traded at the deadline for a fistful of prospects and controls. I am guessing both hauls individually would be better than the Kikuchi haul - at least I would hope. I guess you could add some other decent expiring contracts to the list.

 

Best case scenario is their younger players take a step and look like they can be counted on to be regulars so you can project them filling holes for cheap.

 

Even if Vladdy/Bo have great years while the team sucks (which means everyone else's value tanks if the team is doing back in that situation) you're going to get maybe an extra 45-50FV prospect at most.

[BatFlip]

I agree in theory but Vlad has to agree to make that work. If it took 550 million 15 years to do it tomorrow... would you?

 

I wouldn't.

 

Hell no.

 

Baseball is crazy. Seven months ago there was an entire thread dedicated to sending Vladdy to Indy ball. I'm not going to name names, but many of those exact same people are now ranting and raving about how Atkins is "stoopid" for not signing Vlad earlier to an extension and want to give him the third biggest contract in MLB history.

 

Vlad is clearly going to free agency and the Jays will move on. The only valid gripe I've heard around here recently is that Atkins should have traded Vlad at the deadline last year. I 100% agree with that take and was really hoping we were going to do a full tear down last year. It is what it is.

[Brownie19]

Hell no.

 

Baseball is crazy. Seven months ago there was an entire thread dedicated to sending Vladdy to Indy ball. I'm not going to name names, but many of those exact same people are now ranting and raving about how Atkins is "stoopid" for not signing Vlad earlier to an extension and want to give him the third biggest contract in MLB history.

 

Vlad is clearly going to free agency and the Jays will move on. The only valid gripe I've heard around here recently is that Atkins should have traded Vlad at the deadline last year. I 100% agree with that take and was really hoping we were going to do a full tear down last year. It is what it is.

 

BINGO. And there is a possibility Rogers has interfered to some extent, giving direction to keep butts in seats to justify the renos...

[wilko]

Hell no.

 

Baseball is crazy. Seven months ago there was an entire thread dedicated to sending Vladdy to Indy ball. I'm not going to name names, but many of those exact same people are now ranting and raving about how Atkins is "stoopid" for not signing Vlad earlier to an extension and want to give him the third biggest contract in MLB history.

 

Vlad is clearly going to free agency and the Jays will move on. The only valid gripe I've heard around here recently is that Atkins should have traded Vlad at the deadline last year. I 100% agree with that take and was really hoping we were going to do a full tear down last year. It is what it is.

 

I either want the Jays making a deep playoff run (not likely) or they stink it up again and try to get something for Vlad/Bo before they ride off into the sunset.

[Jays24]

Letting Bo/Vlad walk should get you barred from any important baseball positions ever again. Shatkins have known about this day for years now so either sign them to extensions based on something you're comfortable with or trade them right now to kickoff the rebuild. The problem is that we're currently in between doing both things horribly. Edited December 13, 2024 by Jays24

[burlingtonbandit]

The FO should have outlined a plan to ownership about what the current outlook looks for the next 3-5 years if they were to be sellers/trying to compete next year. The roster situation screams a rebuild but we don't know if Atkins/Shaprio are trying to save their own jobs by not admitting defeat.

 

I could see why Rogers/Shaprio doesn't want to do a rebuild given they made season ticket holders sign 3-5 year contracts for the club seats last season. It would be a big F U to Season ticket holders to just blow it up and have a non competitive team plus it damages the brand.

[glory]

The FO should have outlined a plan to ownership about what the current outlook looks for the next 3-5 years if they were to be sellers/trying to compete next year. The roster situation screams a rebuild but we don't know if Atkins/Shaprio are trying to save their own jobs by not admitting defeat.

 

I could see why Rogers/Shaprio doesn't want to do a rebuild given they made season ticket holders sign 3-5 year contracts for the club seats last season. It would be a big F U to Season ticket holders to just blow it up and have a non competitive team plus it damages the brand.

 

Their first big move this off season was as much a 2026-beyond move as it was a 2025 upgrade, as Gimenez is likely the starting SS from 2026-onwards. So far Atkins has not been operating in a way that dictates his job is on the line. Even if they end up giving Burnes $250m, it's a move that impacts future teams just as much as 2025 since Bassitt would need to be replaced after this season, and the Jays aren't exactly a pitching factory when it comes to development. I think we will know if Atkins is more "2014-15 AA" if he overpays Santander. That seems like purely a 2025 move with limited upside in future seasons. Gimenez you could at least envision being a 3 WAR SS moving forward, with potential for more if his bat is around league average. As you said I don't think either ownership or the FO wants to rebuild, but so far they haven't gone too deep the other way either.

 

It would help if we knew what Shapiro's long term future with the club actually is. My guess is Atkins is more in danger of losing his job than Shapiro is, but hard to get a read one way or the other given what has happened so far. They haven't traded any of their top prospects (yet) or made a short term "f the future" signing. They basically made a Varsho 2.0 trade and a simple RP signing. I guess it's possible they truly believe this approach is going to work as they haven't really deviated from what they did in 2023 and 2024.

[Jays24]

The FO should have outlined a plan to ownership about what the current outlook looks for the next 3-5 years if they were to be sellers/trying to compete next year. The roster situation screams a rebuild but we don't know if Atkins/Shaprio are trying to save their own jobs by not admitting defeat.

 

I could see why Rogers/Shaprio doesn't want to do a rebuild given they made season ticket holders sign 3-5 year contracts for the club seats last season. It would be a big F U to Season ticket holders to just blow it up and have a non competitive team plus it damages the brand.

 

You're a f***ing idiot if you can't judge the Jays current roster situation before committing a s*** load of money lol. Jays should not be catering to people who didn't understand when committing. Make the best damn decision for the current and future interests of the organization.

 

Winning is what helps build the brand. Lying to your fans about things most people can see is what gets you in the current shape of our organization where no one knows wtf is going on from top down with Shatkins and our best players on their last year(s) of their deal.

[Brownie19]

The FO should have outlined a plan to ownership about what the current outlook looks for the next 3-5 years if they were to be sellers/trying to compete next year. The roster situation screams a rebuild but we don't know if Atkins/Shaprio are trying to save their own jobs by not admitting defeat.

 

I could see why Rogers/Shaprio doesn't want to do a rebuild given they made season ticket holders sign 3-5 year contracts for the club seats last season. It would be a big F U to Season ticket holders to just blow it up and have a non competitive team plus it damages the brand.

 

Almost all of those club seats, boxes, etc. - even most season ticket holders are either corporations/businesses who use them for client schmoozing or staff perks, or scalpers who are trying to make money off them. Winning helps scalpers, but it doesn't impact the corporations as much (just look at the Leafs for example). And for the most part - just being somewhat competitive is enough. Teams that win I don't know, 78-84 games a year give the allusion of competitiveness that is enough to fool most casuals. You just need to be "in the playoff hunt" in late August +/-

 

People aren't "f***ing idiots" for not judging the Jays current roster situation before buying these tickets and the Jays can't just cater to the diehard baseball fans - that would be a moronic way to run a business.

[BCZ]

This deal f***in sucks. The fans want offense.

[Eat My Shatkins]

This deal f***in sucks. The fans want offense.

 

Yeah I'd love offense, but I'll happily take wins.

[Joltin Joe]

Then let's trade him. He isn't going to sign here and his value is as high as it's been since 2021.

 

According to what we can get?

 

If Jays can get the right haul and take Vlad money to sign Burnes. Be an option

[burlingtonbandit]

Almost all of those club seats, boxes, etc. - even most season ticket holders are either corporations/businesses who use them for client schmoozing or staff perks, or scalpers who are trying to make money off them. Winning helps scalpers, but it doesn't impact the corporations as much (just look at the Leafs for example). And for the most part - just being somewhat competitive is enough. Teams that win I don't know, 78-84 games a year give the allusion of competitiveness that is enough to fool most casuals. You just need to be "in the playoff hunt" in late August +/-

 

People aren't "f***ing idiots" for not judging the Jays current roster situation before buying these tickets and the Jays can't just cater to the diehard baseball fans - that would be a moronic way to run a business.

 

Leafs most of the STH are businesses/corps but Jays I wouldn't say that. Maybe of the club seats specifically more than half are businesses but the rest of the stadium not so much. Obviously you have to run the organization on what the best way forward is and not cater to any fans, but with the unique set up of Rogers owning the team and SN, the TV ratings affect revenue way more than any other club.

 

But if you tear it down the attendance probably craters to like 20-25k a game versus 35k a game so that matters as well.

[Brownie19]

Leafs most of the STH are businesses/corps but Jays I wouldn't say that. Maybe of the club seats specifically more than half are businesses but the rest of the stadium not so much. Obviously you have to run the organization on what the best way forward is and not cater to any fans, but with the unique set up of Rogers owning the team and SN, the TV ratings affect revenue way more than any other club.

 

But if you tear it down the attendance probably craters to like 20-25k a game versus 35k a game so that matters as well.

 

There's no way those new tickets/suites behind home plate aren't almost all corporate tickets.

 

Up until those new seats were built, I would have agreed with you.

[burlingtonbandit]

There's no way those new tickets/suites behind home plate aren't almost all corporate tickets.

 

Up until those new seats were built, I would have agreed with you.

 

I'm actually a ticket holder myself, and they had a holiday christmas party for the club ticket holders. I'd say less than half are corporate. The "In the action" seats that are the first 5 rows behind are mostly corporate but the seats behind the dugouts aren't. Most are season ticket holders from pre-reno that just switched to the club seats because that's where they're old seats were.

[JaysAllMighty]

I have the feeling that we may regret this trade.

[John_Havok]

I have the feeling that we may regret this trade.

 

It's underwhelming, but... the Jays actually got younger as far as position players go with the deal too.

[BCZ]

f***ing trash

[Rusty_Savage]

f***ing trash

 

Someone needs a Xanax