Is the window closing for Atkins and Shapiro?

[mphenhef]

I think the reality is that each player absorbs information in different manners. I've done lessons with a pro on a driving range and at the indoor simulator with all the information. Personally, I thrived at the simulator. I loved being able to see the video, side by side comparisons and all the numbers - but as you say, for others, that would overwhelm them and they'd improve much better with a simple approach. There isn't a one size fits all approach to learning.

 

So true here. I do some stuff with my golf swing that by all means shouldn't work (hitting short irons off my front foot being the biggest) but it does work for me. I had lessons with a pro and it helped my game immensely as he worked within that since it was working. On the other hand, I think my swing breaks simulators somehow as anytime I've used them they have had me three or four clubs shorter than I hit in real life (and 75-100 yards short on my driver)

[Laika]

But seriously, nobody who you actually have circled at the top of your list is coming to be second fiddle to Ross

 

Then call him the GM

and demote Ross to a new, more girly title

Ross would probably be into it

 

Secretary of the 40 man roster

[Jays24]

Damn... this threads more active than the gamethreads. I've been on the fire Atkins train at the end of last year so welcome aboard. The fact Shapiro kept him means he attached his job to Atkins so both can go.

[L54]

Lots could change by July, but even if they decided to punt the season I don't know if a fire sale is what they'd need to do.

 

They just need to move on from Bo and Vlad and retool around what is still looking like a very good rotation, decent bullpen, and plenty of depth. They could also probably get something nice for Kikuchi if he won't extend. Would need to hit some home runs in free agency though. Like one or two of Alonso, Soto, Adames type of thing.

 

Retooling around a rotation that is gone in two years?

 

Bassitt gone after next year

Gausman gone in 26

Berrios gone in 26

Kikuchi gone after this year

 

Rodriguez, Manoah and Tiedemann hanging around

 

If they’re tearing it down take it down to the bones

[L54]

Then call him the GM

and demote Ross to a new, more girly title

Ross would probably be into it

 

Secretary of the 40 man roster

 

If someone new is brought in I want him to have *full* autonomy

[Eat My Shatkins]

Retooling around a rotation that is gone in two years?

 

Bassitt gone after next year

Gausman gone in 26

Berrios gone in 26

Kikuchi gone after this year

 

Rodriguez, Manoah and Tiedemann hanging around

 

If they’re tearing it down take it down to the bones

 

I would try to land some top tier FA's first and kick the can down the road. Might be the wrong call, but there is just too much depth to blow it up without trying to retool the the star power. Plus because they didn't piss away money this off season by panicking (like the fans) they aren't hamstrung with a handful of bloated contracts on the books.

 

If it doesn't work they still have plenty of time to move Gausman and Berrios. Bassitt return probably doesn't move the needle anyways.

[Brownie19]

Retooling around a rotation that is gone in two years?

 

Bassitt gone after next year

Gausman gone in 26

Berrios gone in 26

Kikuchi gone after this year

 

Rodriguez, Manoah and Tiedemann hanging around

 

If they’re tearing it down take it down to the bones

 

I'm all in favour of a full tear down. I love following young, up and coming teams and prospects. Old vet teams bore me. The chances that Manoah and Tiedemann are legit rotation guys is really slim. You can't rely on those 3 LOL.

[Carlos Danger]

Interesting that the FO seems to be able to hire and assemble a very good group of pitching coaches who are having such a positive effect - yet the same people continue to swing and miss on the offensive side of the game. Hmmmmmm

 

There are two components to both though. The mechanics of pitching and hitting, not a zone for nerds unless former player/nerds.

 

Then you have the pitch selection or sequence aspect, that is the Nerd zone. Both sides need to have a symbiotic relationship.

 

It appears that on our pitching side, that is the case, and on our hitting side, it is not.

[Laika]

Interesting that the FO seems to be able to hire and assemble a very good group of pitching coaches who are having such a positive effect - yet the same people continue to swing and miss on the offensive side of the game. Hmmmmmm

 

Even more interesting:

 

- They can apparently coach MLB pitchers well

- They can't develop minor league pitchers

 

????

 

- They can apparently develop decent minor league hitters (see DS, Clement, everyone in Buffalo...)

- They can't coach MLB hitters at all

 

???????

[L54]

I'm all in favour of a full tear down. I love following young, up and coming teams and prospects. Old vet teams bore me. The chances that Manoah and Tiedemann are legit rotation guys is really slim. You can't rely on those 3 LOL.

 

This is how I feel. I’d rather watch this team sift through young prospects than continue down whatever road they are on into next year

 

For example the Reds got Noelvi Marte for 1.5 years of Castillo

 

They got CES and Spencer Steer for 1.5 years of Tyler Mahle

 

And in short order they didn’t really miss either of those guys

 

Before my comments are misconstrued, I wouldn’t start the fire sale tomorrow. But if you’re 5 games under .500 at the deadline there are going to be tough decisions to be made. What we’ve learned since the expansion of playoffs is the deadline has become a sellers market and the Jays will have a lot of interesting pieces to move (Kikuchi, Turner, Garcia) and potentially move (Bassitt, Bo, Romano, Gausman) if they’re out of the race.

[Stangstag]

I would be all in for a fire sale at the end of July so the rebuild could commence. The question remains, do we really want Atkins and co. In charge of the rebuild? If the answer is no, consider the real possibility that we could end up with something worse.

 

Unlike many on this board (maybe all?) I would rather see Shapiro leave and Atkins stay. I think Atkins is a pretty sharp baseball guy who would get picked up by another organization in no time. Not a popular opinion but there it is.

 

Can you explain your stance on this? By all accounts, Shapiro seems like an awesome dude. And the upgrades to the dome and Florida facilities are the best we’ve seen for this org.

[glory]

I would be all in for a fire sale at the end of July so the rebuild could commence. The question remains, do we really want Atkins and co. In charge of the rebuild? If the answer is no, consider the real possibility that we could end up with something worse.

 

Unlike many on this board (maybe all?) I would rather see Shapiro leave and Atkins stay. I think Atkins is a pretty sharp baseball guy who would get picked up by another organization in no time. Not a popular opinion but there it is.

 

If Atkins is going to be the one to rebuild/retool, then I'd rather they try to go for it. His strength is not acquiring young players in trades. Other than Teoscar, he's had an awful track record with acquiring prospects and turning them into anything useful. A big reason why the 2021-24 core isn't a lot better is because of the failed trades of 2017-19. Combine that with the poor drafting/player development, and it's actually a testament to how good Atkins is with free agent signings that the team was able to have a three year run at 90ish wins per season.

 

I don't know if Shapiro will fire Atkins. That seems like a very tight friendship. Shapiro even signed Atkins to an extension one year beyond Shapiro's contract. I feel like they might be a package deal, and if that's the case, then Shapiro needs to go.

[Omar]

Can you explain your stance on this? By all accounts, Shapiro seems like an awesome dude. And the upgrades to the dome and Florida facilities are the best we’ve seen for this org.

 

Bottom line: he hasn't won s***.

 

Results matter.

 

Don't tell me about the labour pains, show me the baby!

[Stangstag]

Yes. And not even in the states; I bet every one of these junior data/science people with the Blue Jays will inevitably just think they are drastically underpaid in ~5 years and want to jump ship from just looking at certain other jobs within Toronto.

 

MSc in Math or CompSci/AI with several years quality working experience is six figures anywhere competitive, maybe $59k with the Blue Jays lol

 

59k salary for an analyst with the Jays is probably generous.

 

A few years back my buddy had a co-op/internship interview for the Jays FO and the pay they were offering was $12 an hour vs all the other tech/bank positions that were offering $20 an hour.

 

Now that’s just an intern sure, but I can’t imagine any starting analysts with the Jays making over 50k.

 

Any arts/passion career pays awful.

[Stangstag]

Bottom line: he hasn't won s***.

 

Results matter.

 

Don't tell me about the labour pains, show me the baby!

 

Im not really sure if a winning record matters for the President/CEO though??

 

You’d want a GM with a winning record or history of winning for sure

[Stangstag]

This is how I feel. I’d rather watch this team sift through young prospects than continue down whatever road they are on into next year

 

For example the Reds got Noelvi Marte for 1.5 years of Castillo

 

They got CES and Spencer Steer for 1.5 years of Tyler Mahle

 

And in short order they didn’t really miss either of those guys

 

Before my comments are misconstrued, I wouldn’t start the fire sale tomorrow. But if you’re 5 games under .500 at the deadline there are going to be tough decisions to be made. What we’ve learned since the expansion of playoffs is the deadline has become a sellers market and the Jays will have a lot of interesting pieces to move (Kikuchi, Turner, Garcia) and potentially move (Bassitt, Bo, Romano, Gausman) if they’re out of the race.

 

100% agree. IDGAF about the names on the team, I want a winner. And this core seems rotten so throw it away.

[glory]

Im not really sure if a winning record matters for the President/CEO though??

 

You’d want a GM with a winning record or history of winning for sure

 

It depends on how much influence, if any, Shapiro has on baseball decisions. I don't think it's 100%, but it's not 0% either, so hard to say.

 

Shapiro's Cleveland run as a GM was pretty trash aside from 2007. The year before he became CLE GM, they drew 3.4m in attendance. His final year as CLE GM they were at 1.4m. It was pretty much a decade of dog s*** (again aside from 2007 where they made it to Game 7 of the ALCS). He was promoted in 2011-15, but much like the current situation, it's hard to say how much influence he still had on their baseball decisions by that point.

 

I think it's fair to question Shapiro's track record. He's done some good things in Toronto, but as far as we know, none of that has been on the field. It's been other things (payroll, Dunedin, etc).

[Carlos Danger]

It depends on how much influence, if any, Shapiro has on baseball decisions. I don't think it's 100%, but it's not 0% either, so hard to say.

 

Shapiro's Cleveland run as a GM was pretty trash aside from 2007. The year before he became CLE GM, they drew 3.4m in attendance. His final year as CLE GM they were at 1.4m. It was pretty much a decade of dog s*** (again aside from 2007 where they made it to Game 7 of the ALCS). He was promoted in 2011-15, but much like the current situation, it's hard to say how much influence he still had on their baseball decisions by that point.

 

I think it's fair to question Shapiro's track record. He's done some good things in Toronto, but as far as we know, none of that has been on the field. It's been other things (payroll, Dunedin, etc).

 

They have interviewed former presidents of orgs who came from the baseball side, as did Shapiro. Across the board they will say that if you think that the President is not involved in baseball decision/personnel decisions etc you are dead wrong.

 

100% Shapiro is involved in on field product.

[Spanky99]

[Terminator]

In general, everyone gets to blame and fire the guy beneath them one time. If the guy beneath them wasn't their own hire then it doesn't count.

 

Atkins:

-"parted ways" with Gibby but it doesn't count bc Gibby wasn't his hire

-hire and fired Montoyo

-hired Schneider

 

That's it for Atkins. He could fire Schneider but the team would have to make a deep playoff run.

 

Shapiro:

-"parted ways with AA" but doesn't count bc AA wasn't his guy

-hired Atkins

 

If Shapiro fires Atkins he will get to hire another GM. Probably wouldn't get to hire a 3rd one but maybe.

[L54]

 

The Blue Jays are the best team!

[Spanky99]

The Blue Jays are the best team!

 

There's the guy with dignity and integrity, lol.

[L54]

There's the guy with dignity and integrity, lol.

 

Toaster in bathtub .jpg

[Spanky99]

Toaster in bathtub .jpg

 

[burlingtonbandit]

Have to wonder if Shapiro even wants another contract with the Blue jays. He seems like a big project guy and after the Dunedin and Toronto ballpark renovations there really isn’t another big project like that on the horizon. Especially if the team is going to go through a retool/rebuild is he going to want to stick around knowing 2027 could be the earliest year of contention.

 

Also he is American and both his kids go to US colleges, so he might rather live closer to family in the states especially since he is getting older. (Although he strikes me as a guy who enjoys work and always wants to be involved in something)

[Brownie19]

Have to wonder if Shapiro even wants another contract with the Blue jays. He seems like a big project guy and after the Dunedin and Toronto ballpark renovations there really isn’t another big project like that on the horizon. Especially if the team is going to go through a retool/rebuild is he going to want to stick around knowing 2027 could be the earliest year of contention.

 

Also he is American and both his kids go to US colleges, so he might rather live closer to family in the states especially since he is getting older. (Although he strikes me as a guy who enjoys work and always wants to be involved in something)

 

Yeah - I think that's fair. He may bail on this team soon.

[glory]

Have to wonder if Shapiro even wants another contract with the Blue jays. He seems like a big project guy and after the Dunedin and Toronto ballpark renovations there really isn’t another big project like that on the horizon. Especially if the team is going to go through a retool/rebuild is he going to want to stick around knowing 2027 could be the earliest year of contention.

 

Also he is American and both his kids go to US colleges, so he might rather live closer to family in the states especially since he is getting older. (Although he strikes me as a guy who enjoys work and always wants to be involved in something)

 

Yeah it’s hard to see why he’d stay unless he’s determined to win a World Series here and is willing to wait a while to go through the building process again. Seems unlikely. The farm system isn’t in good shape and the big league team doesn’t look like a real playoff contender, and if Shapiro were to stay for a rebuild, then he’d have to eat the criticism of declining attendance right after an expensive stadium renovation. I just don’t see the upside for him, especially since he will have options if he were to leave.

 

I don’t know if I trust Rogers to hire a competent replacement (Kenny Williams is available now which is terrifying) but we might be headed down that road.

[Brownie19]

Yeah it’s hard to see why he’d stay unless he’s determined to win a World Series here and is willing to wait a while to go through the building process again. Seems unlikely. The farm system isn’t in good shape and the big league team doesn’t look like a real playoff contender, and if Shapiro were to stay for a rebuild, then he’d have to eat the criticism of declining attendance right after an expensive stadium renovation. I just don’t see the upside for him, especially since he will have options if he were to leave.

 

I don’t know if I trust Rogers to hire a competent replacement (Kenny Williams is available now which is terrifying) but we might be headed down that road.

 

LOL - good point. You guys hate Shatkins? Wait until Kenny Williams is running this team.

[burlingtonbandit]

I think Shaprio actually has done a pretty good job as president. Dealing with s***** Rogers and actually getting them to invest in the team is an accomplishment in itself. The biggest problem he's had has been the baseball Ops side/hiring Atkins and sticking with him all this time.

 

But I don't think anyone would say anything bad about the renovations to RC and the player development facility in Dunedin seems pretty good too.

 

People forget how crappy Rogers has been in the past as an Owner and that we haven't heard anything about them in the past 10 years has to be a credit to Shaprio. Meanwhile you hear about Ed Rogers meddling with the Raptors in the same time frame.

[Omar]

Have to wonder if Shapiro even wants another contract with the Blue jays. He seems like a big project guy and after the Dunedin and Toronto ballpark renovations there really isn’t another big project like that on the horizon. Especially if the team is going to go through a retool/rebuild is he going to want to stick around knowing 2027 could be the earliest year of contention.

 

Also he is American and both his kids go to US colleges, so he might rather live closer to family in the states especially since he is getting older. (Although he strikes me as a guy who enjoys work and always wants to be involved in something)

 

Shapiro wants the commissioner job eventually. Count on it.

 

"He wants the Ring. He is seeking it. All his thought is bent on it. "