Ohtani Thread - Special Sheriff's Edition (Update: confirmed going to the Dodgers)

[Stangstag]

Basically whenever the Jays have wanted to sign free agents, they have been able to do so. Up until 1990 they weren't really that active and didn't really need to be because they were winning with their own players and trades. But when it came to supplement the World Series rosters, they basically had the pick of the litter.

 

Late 90's and early 2000's were rebuilding and transitional years. But when Ricciardi wanted to spend starting mid-2000's, he could spend. Same thing with AA. He signed people when he needed to. Same with this regime. Stop being such self-hating Canadian losers.

 

I agree. Still sucks we missed out on Ohtani. Would have been such a thrill to sign literally THE top guy in the sport.

 

But I have no doubt we’ll still sign someone big for 100+ million this year.

 

Just seems we can never get those S-tier free agents. We have been able to get some of the A-tier guys like Gausman and Springer though

[max silver]

Just imagine… if… Atkins tries to get all 4 of those you mentioned and all other teams outbid the Jays based on Atkins/ Shapiro’s perceived value of what each free agent is worth 👀.

 

That’s always been these two dorks f***ing greatest weakness that they themselves think they are smarter then the other 29 GM’s and the sports agents…

 

“Oh we tried, but none of those free agents wanted to come play for Toronto”.

 

No…. You f***ers never made an offer these guys could not pass up!!! Plain and simple money talks and ******** walks to the highest bidder!!!

 

Are you seriously whinging that the front office isn't interested in dramatically overpaying for free agents?

[Terminator]

I agree. Still sucks we missed out on Ohtani. Would have been such a thrill to sign literally THE top guy in the sport.

 

But I have no doubt we’ll still sign someone big for 100+ million this year.

 

Just seems we can never get those S-tier free agents. We have been able to get some of the A-tier guys like Gausman and Springer though

 

The problem is that the free agents suck this year. Yamamoto is good but he’s going to cost north of 200. Cohen loves the guy. Seems like another situation where we can offer him a shitload but they’ll outbid us.

 

Bellinger might be a match but his batted ball profile is terrifying.

 

I think we need to make a trade but we don’t have a ton of elite prospects.

 

FO office has their work cut out for them considering the sentiment from last year and getting blue balled on Ohtani.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Pretty much whatever the Jays end up doing now is going to feel pretty underwhelming after thinking they had Ohtani yesterday lol

 

Yamamoto would be great but I have zero confidence in him picking the Jays, especially with that f***tard Cohen going after him

 

Lee would also be nice but none of these high profile Japanese or Korean dudes ever seem to pick the Jays when they come over

 

All the rest of the FA's don't seem like they'll move the needle or be worth the god awful contracts they end up signing

[Sorrow]

On the losing FA to other teams we were the runners up twice for Verlander, Cole, Seager and Semien. It’s frustrating but this front office has been willing to spend huge money on the right players and I certainly think that all those contracts are going to age awfully in the later half, excluding Verlander with the one to two year deals.

 

I think the front office is going to do something good, we may not end up with a single super star but we could certainly add a bunch of good pieces that balance out the complete roster a lot more.

[Stangstag]

On the losing FA to other teams we were the runners up twice for Verlander, Cole, Seager and Semien. It’s frustrating but this front office has been willing to spend huge money on the right players and I certainly think that all those contracts are going to age awfully in the later half, excluding Verlander with the one to two year deals.

 

I think the front office is going to do something good, we may not end up with a single super star but we could certainly add a bunch of good pieces that balance out the complete roster a lot more.

 

Right. End of the day I don’t give a s*** who we add, so long as the roster is better and they actually do something in the playoffs.

 

I’d be 100% on-board with trading away the entire roster to get younger if it meant we still sneak into the playoffs.

 

I just want a good team.

[Abomination]

The problem is that the free agents suck this year. Yamamoto is good but he’s going to cost north of 200. Cohen loves the guy. Seems like another situation where we can offer him a shitload but they’ll outbid us.

 

Bellinger might be a match but his batted ball profile is terrifying.

 

I think we need to make a trade but we don’t have a ton of elite prospects.

 

FO office has their work cut out for them considering the sentiment from last year and getting blue balled on Ohtani.

 

I think it would be a bad idea to make a panic trade. We need legit bats at 3rd, OF, and DH at minimum. It would be nice if the DH could play the field too, but they probably don't HAVE to. You could imagine something like Chapman / Turner + Bellinger + JD creating quite a nice lineup. That's assuming someone doesn't do something insane with Bellinger.

[connorp]

It’s so pathetic that the dodgers fans don’t realize how bad that ohtani contract is.

 

It should be noted that none of us understand the bigger picture on offering a $700m deal. It’s unfair to assume they’re just like “now we’ll win more games”.

[connorp]

More like Ohtani was using the Jays as leverage to get more money from the Dodgers. I don't believe for a second that the Jays were close to signing him yesterday and then mid-way through today, he announces he signed this complicated financial deal (which was at his suggestion), without this being the plan all along.

 

Yeah, it’s really hard to believe Jays weren’t the patsy. Unlike other cases, they should get an E for effort here though. They were probably down for $500m+ at least and that’s impressive.

[Sorrow]

Yeah, it’s really hard to believe Jays weren’t the patsy. Unlike other cases, they should get an E for effort here though. They were probably down for $500m+ at least and that’s impressive.

 

I can fairly confidently say that it was around 600m for 10 or 11 years.

 

My friends plans have changed and he is no longer travelling for vacation at this time. There is some thought among our chat that CAA may have made some leaks to certain sources to scare the Dodgers into upping their ante even higher when they wouldn’t move because they thought the interest in Toronto was minimal.

 

This is purely speculation in a chat among friends and not something coming from the team.

[Abomination]

Yeah, it’s really hard to believe Jays weren’t the patsy. Unlike other cases, they should get an E for effort here though. They were probably down for $500m+ at least and that’s impressive.

 

I don't actually think they were. My suspicion is that the Jays were the high bidder by probably $50M. The Dodgers likely upped their offer to be close after news that they lost the bid, and Ohtani then negotiated the deferred deal to allow him to accept the highest bid while not being too disrespectful to what was probably a non-finalized agreement with the Jays. The marketing opportunities in LA plus potentially not having to move were probably deciding factors. Atkins definitely doesn't go AWOL at the winter meetings if they don't have very good reason to believe they were likely to get him.

[jaysblue]

According to Tom Verducci, when Ohtani visited the Dodgers on December 1st, he made a point about asking the club about its player development philosophy and the state of its minor league system.

 

Dodgers ranked 6th according to MLB.com midway through 2023 whereas the Blue Jays ranked 25th.

 

Blue Jays weak farm system likely was a negative, but at the end of the day the Dodgers opened their wallets and offered $700 million to sign him.

[Stangstag]

I can fairly confidently say that it was around 600m for 10 or 11 years.

 

My friends plans have changed and he is no longer travelling for vacation at this time. There is some thought among our chat that CAA may have made some leaks to certain sources to scare the Dodgers into upping their ante even higher when they wouldn’t move because they thought the interest in Toronto was minimal.

 

This is purely speculation in a chat among friends and not something coming from the team.

 

Interesting insight, thanks. Makes sense.

[Pinkfloid]

Read that Robert Herjavec is also represented by CAA... Funny that he didn't let anyone in on the fact that he was the one making the flight to TO despite having every opportunity to do so. Looking more like an orchestrated inside job to use the Jays as leverage.

[PhillyBlueJay]

Are you seriously whinging that the front office isn't interested in dramatically overpaying for free agents?

 

 

No not really… I think there is some ongoing metrics database they use to value free agents internally and they stick to their internal valuation rating system!

 

If Bellinger is rated internally as a contract of max 5 years 175 million and the bidding market dictates 200+ they won’t bend period!!!

 

You will never see Jays brass overpay based on internal valuation system! They will NEVER trump another team in a bidding war just to get that “one player” they need to put them over the top. So if bidding war starts for Bellinger, J.D. Martinez, Japanese pitchers Jays will be used again by agents to drive up bidding war to max value for each free agents.

 

That’s my opinion and I stand by it!!!

 

You will NEVER hear that Atkins and Shapiro overpaid for x and y free agents… That is the Cleveland model they carried to Toronto!!!

[BaseballIsLife]

No not really… I think there is some ongoing metrics database they use to value free agents internally and they stick to their internal valuation rating system!

 

If Bellinger is rated internally as a contract of max 5 years 175 million and the bidding market dictates 200+ they won’t bend period!!!

 

You will never see Jays brass overpay based on internal valuation system! They will NEVER trump another team in a bidding war just to get that “one player” they need to put them over the top. So if bidding war starts for Bellinger, J.D. Martinez, Japanese pitchers Jays will be used again by agents to drive up bidding war to max value for each free agents.

 

That’s my opinion and I stand by it!!!

 

You will NEVER hear that Atkins and Shapiro overpaid for x and y free agents… That is the Cleveland model they carried to Toronto!!!

 

Ryu, Springer, Gausman

[Stangstag]

No not really… I think there is some ongoing metrics database they use to value free agents internally and they stick to their internal valuation rating system!

 

If Bellinger is rated internally as a contract of max 5 years 175 million and the bidding market dictates 200+ they won’t bend period!!!

 

You will never see Jays brass overpay based on internal valuation system! They will NEVER trump another team in a bidding war just to get that “one player” they need to put them over the top. So if bidding war starts for Bellinger, J.D. Martinez, Japanese pitchers Jays will be used again by agents to drive up bidding war to max value for each free agents.

 

That’s my opinion and I stand by it!!!

 

You will NEVER hear that Atkins and Shapiro overpaid for x and y free agents… That is the Cleveland model they carried to Toronto!!!

 

You can easily argue they overpaid for Springer. And Ryu.

[Stangstag]

Ryu, Springer, Gausman

 

Bassitt too

[PhillyBlueJay]

Ryu, Springer, Gausman

 

Gausman was equal in value of Robbie Ray so I think they liked the fork ball versus max effort guy who could not sustain the max effort forever. So I believe internal valuation was accurate!

 

Ryu contract was justified on his previous success as was Springer! Problem if you remember both these free agents waited very long in process to sign with Jays wanting more money but settled on Jays the highest offer they received.

 

In saying that, these were not “bidding wars” with other teams Jays valued then exactly as they wanted and I other team valued them and yes maybe an overpay. But definitely not an overpay in what I term as a “bidding war”.

 

If Jays get in bidding war over Japanese pitcher or Bellinger they will NOT overpay in those instances.

 

Best they could do now is go all in on Bellinger and Yamamoto but these will be bidding wars with other teams so Jays brass will be brides maids!

 

Bellinger = 7 year 240 million

Yamamoto = 7 years 200+ million.

[jaysblue]

My two cents on what happened over the last couple of days or weeks:

 

- Dodgers were Ohtani's main preference from Day 1. Dodgers are always one of the favourites to win the World Series, they've built a perennial contender, have a strong farm system and a very solid core of players such as Freeman, Betts, Smith, etc. Player development and the farm system were important to Ohtani where he was going to sign. He didn't want to experience what he did with the Angels again. Dodgers reduced payroll the past two seasons for this exact moment.

- Rogers wanted to go after Ohtani as mentioned to support their investments in all the renovations at the Rogers Centre. Ohtani would have created hype and buzz around the team. They would have sold more season tickets and corporate tickets for their new Infield Club guaranteed. As well as the other positives from signing Ohtani as discussed in this thread. So Rogers, after the disappointing finishes the past two seasons probably went to Shapiro and Atkins in October and gave them the green light to target and lure Ohtani to the Blue Jays.

- Shapiro/Atkins did their due diligence by making their pitch, giving Ohtani a tour of the facilities in Dunedin and talking about what they could do for Ohtani and his brand. Blue Jays have been competitive over the last 3-4 seasons, have kept their rotation healthy and have shown a willingness to spend on FAs, which are all positives to show Ohtani that they are serious about contending.

- Ohtani liked what he heard from Shapiro/Atkins and strongly considered the Jays as an option. Blue Jays probably offered a deal around $600M over 10 years, and Ohtani likely would have accepted and was very close, but they wanted to give the Dodgers one last chance to beat that offer.

- Rumours circulate on Friday that Ohtani is flying to Toronto to meet the Blue Jays. Whether it was orchestrated by Ohtani's agent, we don't know. But that probably alarmed the Dodgers, which is why they called an emergency meeting Friday night.

- Dodgers realized the Blue Jays were to be taken seriously and rather than take the chance of losing Ohtani, they opened their wallets and offered $700 million to just end all of this drama. Ohtani's camp likely notified the Jays on Saturday morning and that number was too high for Rogers to meet.

- Ohtani's main preference was always the Dodgers. He was comfortable in the LA area and was impressed with their player development/farm system which were advantages for the Dodgers. Plus they managed to get the Dodgers to give him $75-100M more. Dodgers panicked last night with all the rumours about Ohtani flying to Toronto etc., so they went all in and wanted to seal the deal.

[Pinkfloid]

My two cents on what happened over the last couple of days or weeks:

 

- Dodgers were Ohtani's main preference from Day 1. Dodgers are always one of the favourites to win the World Series, they've built a perennial contender, have a strong farm system and a very solid core of players such as Freeman, Betts, Smith, etc. Player development and the farm system were important to Ohtani where he was going to sign. He didn't want to experience what he did with the Angels again. Dodgers reduced payroll the past two seasons for this exact moment.

- Rogers wanted to go after Ohtani as mentioned to support their investments in all the renovations at the Rogers Centre. Ohtani would have created hype and buzz around the team. They would have sold more season tickets and corporate tickets for their new Infield Club guaranteed. As well as the other positives from signing Ohtani as discussed in this thread. So Rogers, after the disappointing finishes the past two seasons probably went to Shapiro and Atkins in October and gave them the green light to target and lure Ohtani to the Blue Jays.

- Shapiro/Atkins did their due diligence by making their pitch, giving Ohtani a tour of the facilities in Dunedin and talking about what they could do for Ohtani and his brand. Blue Jays have been competitive over the last 3-4 seasons, have kept their rotation healthy and have shown a willingness to spend on FAs, which are all positives to show Ohtani that they are serious about contending.

- Ohtani liked what he heard from Shapiro/Atkins and strongly considered the Jays as an option. Blue Jays probably offered a deal around $600M over 10 years, and Ohtani likely would have accepted and was very close, but they wanted to give the Dodgers one last chance to beat that offer.

- Rumours circulate on Friday that Ohtani is flying to Toronto to meet the Blue Jays. Whether it was orchestrated by Ohtani's agent, we don't know. But that probably alarmed the Dodgers, which is why they called an emergency meeting Friday night.

- Dodgers realized the Blue Jays were to be taken seriously and rather than take the chance of losing Ohtani, they opened their wallets and offered $700 million to just end all of this drama. Ohtani's camp likely notified the Jays on Saturday morning and that number was too high for Rogers to meet.

- Ohtani's main preference was always the Dodgers and they got the Dodgers to likely give him $75-100M more. Dodgers panicked last night with all the rumours about Ohtani flying to Toronto etc., so they went all in and wanted to seal the deal.

 

Sounds about right. Though I seriously doubt Ohtani really ever gave the Jays any serious consideration. His agents were likely the ones leaking this false information to certain people, and Morosi decided to run with it, along with this Dodgers Hoornstra guy. Don't forget that Robert Herjavec is also represented by CAA and did nothing to quell the rumors mid-flight. He also had that Instagram post ready to go pretty much immediately after word got out. It was all a big setup and I can't help but lose some respect for Ohtani if this is all true and he was in on it. I'm sure more will come out in the coming days/weeks.

[jaysblue]

Sounds about right. Though I seriously doubt Ohtani really ever gave the Jays any serious consideration. His agents were likely the ones leaking this false information to certain people, and Morosi decided to run with it, along with this Dodgers Hoornstra guy. Don't forget that Robert Herjavec is also represented by CAA and did nothing to quell the rumors. It was all a big setup and I can't help but lose some respect for Ohtani if this is all true. I'm sure more will come out in the coming days/weeks.

 

Yeah I think it was a big setup as well. What happened on Friday was unheard of. Likely all orchestrated by CAA to get the Dodgers to panic and it worked.

 

Dodgers were always Ohtani's main choice. I'm sure the Jays offer around $600M was more than what the Dodgers had on the table at the time. Ohtani was playing the waiting game hoping to get something better from the Dodgers. They escalated everything with the rumours on Friday and managed to scare the Dodgers and get them to pony up. Blue Jays definitely were used as leverage. Blue Jays were close and if the Dodgers didn't step up with that offer, I bet Ohtani would have accepted the Jays offer by the end of this weekend.

[Pinkfloid]

Yeah I think it was a big setup as well. What happened on Friday was unheard of. Likely all orchestrated by CAA to get the Dodgers to panic and it worked.

 

Dodgers were always Ohtani's main choice. I'm sure the Jays offer around $600M was more than what the Dodgers had on the table at the time. Ohtani was playing the waiting game hoping to get something better from the Dodgers. They escalated everything with the rumours on Friday and managed to scare the Dodgers and get them to pony up. Blue Jays definitely were used as leverage. Blue Jays were close and if the Dodgers didn't step up with that offer, I bet Ohtani would have accepted the Jays offer by the end of this weekend.

 

I guess we'll never know but it stings either way. Hopefully Ross and Mark can give the team a nice overhaul to ease the pain

[Carlos Danger]

While we have signed some high profile FAs, we have not yet won a H2H against the big boys in the past 20 years. If it is us vs LAD or Yankees and the player is their #1 target, we have never won that scenario.

 

The Dodgers did not really want Ryu and hence we were able to sign him. I almost assure you, if the Dodgers really wanted him, he would have stayed there..

[Terminator]

Read that Robert Herjavec is also represented by CAA... Funny that he didn't let anyone in on the fact that he was the one making the flight to TO despite having every opportunity to do so. Looking more like an orchestrated inside job to use the Jays as leverage.

 

If Robert Herjavec was knowingly in on the CAA plan to land Ohtani with the Dodgers then he should be jailed for treason.

[Terminator]

While we have signed some high profile FAs, we have not yet won a H2H against the big boys in the past 20 years. If it is us vs LAD or Yankees and the player is their #1 target, we have never won that scenario.

 

The Dodgers did not really want Ryu and hence we were able to sign him. I almost assure you, if the Dodgers really wanted him, he would have stayed there..

 

That’s hard to know without knowing who wanted Gausman and Springer. 20 years ago would also include this Riccardi signings such as Burnett and Ryan where we we got roasted for doleing out giant contracts to those two.

[Omar]

A narrative is building on the interwebs that Morosi was fed the info that Sho was in a plane to Toronto. Similarly Hoornstra given info that a deal was done with the Jays. Both leaked by Ohtani's camp. If true than for sure the Jays were played. Kind of slippery dealing.

[Grant77]

My two cents on what happened over the last couple of days or weeks:

 

- Dodgers were Ohtani's main preference from Day 1. Dodgers are always one of the favourites to win the World Series, they've built a perennial contender, have a strong farm system and a very solid core of players such as Freeman, Betts, Smith, etc. Player development and the farm system were important to Ohtani where he was going to sign. He didn't want to experience what he did with the Angels again. Dodgers reduced payroll the past two seasons for this exact moment.

- Rogers wanted to go after Ohtani as mentioned to support their investments in all the renovations at the Rogers Centre. Ohtani would have created hype and buzz around the team. They would have sold more season tickets and corporate tickets for their new Infield Club guaranteed. As well as the other positives from signing Ohtani as discussed in this thread. So Rogers, after the disappointing finishes the past two seasons probably went to Shapiro and Atkins in October and gave them the green light to target and lure Ohtani to the Blue Jays.

- Shapiro/Atkins did their due diligence by making their pitch, giving Ohtani a tour of the facilities in Dunedin and talking about what they could do for Ohtani and his brand. Blue Jays have been competitive over the last 3-4 seasons, have kept their rotation healthy and have shown a willingness to spend on FAs, which are all positives to show Ohtani that they are serious about contending.

- Ohtani liked what he heard from Shapiro/Atkins and strongly considered the Jays as an option. Blue Jays probably offered a deal around $600M over 10 years, and Ohtani likely would have accepted and was very close, but they wanted to give the Dodgers one last chance to beat that offer.

- Rumours circulate on Friday that Ohtani is flying to Toronto to meet the Blue Jays. Whether it was orchestrated by Ohtani's agent, we don't know. But that probably alarmed the Dodgers, which is why they called an emergency meeting Friday night.

- Dodgers realized the Blue Jays were to be taken seriously and rather than take the chance of losing Ohtani, they opened their wallets and offered $700 million to just end all of this drama. Ohtani's camp likely notified the Jays on Saturday morning and that number was too high for Rogers to meet.

- Ohtani's main preference was always the Dodgers. He was comfortable in the LA area and was impressed with their player development/farm system which were advantages for the Dodgers. Plus they managed to get the Dodgers to give him $75-100M more. Dodgers panicked last night with all the rumours about Ohtani flying to Toronto etc., so they went all in and wanted to seal the deal.

 

That's highly unlikely in my opinion.

 

- Ohtani gets offer from Dodgers, which is his preferred destination from day one.

- Ohtani's agency needs some leverage so they visit the Blue Jays and put out the leaks that we saw on Friday.

- With the strategy complete, Ohtani signs with the Dodgers.

 

It's really that simple.

[PhillyBlueJay]

I guess we'll never know but it stings either way. Hopefully Ross and Mark can give the team a nice overhaul to ease the pain

 

I suspect the quiet response from Atkins/ Shapiro in the aftermath is indications they know they were played and it super stings for them!

 

Now they need to clear their minds today and tomorrow and really f***ing focus on what’s best for this club, and if they want the targets they want they need to open the f***ing check book or the off-season will look like a failure for them. Atkins/ Shapiro are between a rock and a hard place to be honest!

 

Do they fail on other free agents offers and Jays open first month of the season with a bad month and everyone in the media roasts them about not doing enough! Both have to answer now to the fans, Rogers Board of Directors, and commitment from players on the field!

 

Both Atkins/ Shapiro are on the “hot seat” whether they like it or not and only option to recover is go all-in on players they want to get! If they don’t, we may see a charging of the guard for Atkins/ Shapiro come October 2024 if Jays fumble or don’t make playoffs.

[Terminator]

All the speculation about whether Ohtani used the Jays or not is immaterial. Bottom line is the Dodgers had the highest offer (or at least it’s easy to presume they did). And that’s where players usually sign.

 

The Jays either had a big offer in or they didn’t and the Dodgers thought they did. We’ll probably never know for sure. But we didn’t have the biggest offer so we didn’t get him.

 

To the extent we can throw blame around for what went down, I blame JP Moron-si, Hoornsta (or whatever is name is), Twisted Logic and his Reddit thread (he’s the Steve Bartman of Jays fan for playing a role in flubbing this), Robert the Shark Tank guy (traitor to Canada)and the universal DH.