General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[G-Snarls]

I'm so glad I'm not watching this

[Spanky99]

Reading this I’m glad I skipped Ned Flanders. Saved myself an aneurysm. He never was going to say anything material at this point in season. For the ownership it’s fire him or don’t at this point.

 

Yup. I didn't watch it either, no point.

[DigitalRock]

PAIN:

 

Lowest batting average with runners in scoring position this season in the 7th inning & later

 

Athletics .189

Cubs .184

White Sox .179

Blue Jays .152

[BigCecil]

Green: 5.49 FIP and Neg 0.1 WAR (8 IP pitch - IL)

IKF: 0.6 WAR and 90 wRC+

JT: Neg 0.1 WAR and 97 WRC+

Vogelbach: Neg 0.4 WAR and 25 wRC+

KK: 0.3 WAR and 72 wRC+

 

Checking in on our $43M ARO in off season investments.

44 Gms - 27% of the season complete and as a collective they have produced a total net 0.3 WAR

 

- Plus to elite D from KK and IKF keeping their WAR positive.

- Health was always a concern for KK and Green.

- JT is 40 and wasn't great against the FB in '23. Hot start.

- Vogelbach was a $2M dumpster dive. 43 PAs.

[Laika]

Tommy Pham, who basically everyone here wanted as a buy low LF, is already at 0.8 WAR after signing late and free with the White Sox

[jaysblue]

Green: 5.49 FIP and Neg 0.1 WAR (8 IP pitch - IL)

IKF: 0.6 WAR and 90 wRC+

JT: Neg 0.1 WAR and 97 WRC+

Vogelbach: Neg 0.4 WAR and 25 wRC+

KK: 0.3 WAR and 72 wRC+

 

Checking in on our $43M ARO in off season investments.

44 Gms - 27% of the season complete and as a collective they have produced a total net 0.3 WAR

 

- Plus to elite D from KK and IKF keeping their WAR positive.

- Health was always a concern for KK and Green.

- JT is 40 and wasn't great against the FB in '23. Hot start.

- Vogelbach was a $2M dumpster dive. 43 PAs.

 

At the end of the day, this front office did nothing in the offseason to address the major issue facing this team.

 

I had no problem with signing KK and IKF as depth guys on the bench who might squeeze out 300 AB each, and if the money spent on them didn't tie up funds for other FA's. Atkins again jumped the gun early signing these guys, kind of like how he did with players like Morales, Roark etc. With Varsho already here and who could play CF, should have targeted a corner outfielder with some pop and there were plenty available this offseason who wouldn't have cost all that much. Someone capable of hitting around 20-30 HR's.

 

I didn't mind the Green deal, but at the time never considered it a steal as some others like Brownie did. 32-year-old reliever coming off major surgery and a significant chunk of time missed were red flags. If Green is healthy, he can be great. Though not sure I would be handing out $10.5M for a lottery ticket, when those type of arms could be had for half the cost. E.g. Liam Hendriks.

 

Always have been a fan of JT, but he wasn't even my third or fourth choice of available bats who could have signed as DH's here. 13M as well was a hefty price tag to pay.

 

Vogelbach is still on the team? lol. I haven't even heard of him or seen him play at all. Waste of $2M guaranteed money.

[jaysblue]

Tommy Pham, who basically everyone here wanted as a buy low LF, is already at 0.8 WAR after signing late and free with the White Sox

 

White Sox will likely trade him at the deadline. Wonder what they could get for Erick Fedde who already as a 0.9 fWAR and a 2.60 ERA after 9 starts.

[Jimcanuck]

Don't despair guys, there's always next year

[glory]

Green: 5.49 FIP and Neg 0.1 WAR (8 IP pitch - IL)

IKF: 0.6 WAR and 90 wRC+

JT: Neg 0.1 WAR and 97 WRC+

Vogelbach: Neg 0.4 WAR and 25 wRC+

KK: 0.3 WAR and 72 wRC+

 

Checking in on our $43M ARO in off season investments.

44 Gms - 27% of the season complete and as a collective they have produced a total net 0.3 WAR

 

- Plus to elite D from KK and IKF keeping their WAR positive.

- Health was always a concern for KK and Green.

- JT is 40 and wasn't great against the FB in '23. Hot start.

- Vogelbach was a $2M dumpster dive. 43 PAs.

 

Add Yariel Rodriguez to that group (0.1 WAR), and Otto Lopez has a higher WAR than the Jays entire off season right now. Sadly we can’t even say “if the Jays kept him” because you know damn well he wouldn’t have 3 home runs in May if he was still in this org.

 

I think the off season moves are playing out as expected. Green getting hurt obviously sucks but he’s a RP so volatility in any form kinda comes with the territory. Not surprised with any of the other results. The position player adds in the off season were gross.

[BigCecil]

JD Martinez: 0.3 WAR in 79 PAs - $9M ARO 141 wRC+

 

Tyler O'Neil: 1 WAR - $5.8M ARO 145 wRC+

 

27% complete its easy to point to good and bad misses by the FO on off season signings. $32M ARO Chappy and Soler, for example, that some wanted here have so far been worth net 0.8 WAR. It is just a fact that our $49M ARO off season investments have been worth 0.4 WAR so far. No one tweak would have fixed the s*** show to date.

 

Business is ultimately only about closing and results (financial and performance metrics), coupled with senior accountability:

 

1) Drafting and development record is this franchises biggest failure contributing to current position.

 

2) Bo and Vlad need to produce more WAR for us to succeed as constructed. Vlad's decline apparent since end '21 and Bo is a BAPIP bat with 27th percentile SS range.

 

3) Banking on Kirk and Springer offensively to bounce back was always risky IMO given age, injury history and Kirk body type.

 

4) This past off season the FO could have closed a Alomar + Carter for Fernandez + McGriff style major roster trade. They chose not to or couldn't.

 

5) They have traded Moreno, SWR, Gunnar, Martin and a host of their top picks and prospects. They chose not to or couldn't close a trade for Ricky and/or Orelvis etc to make a deal to improve the 2024 teams. (I can appreciate why for the future, and it would have dropped them to 30th in farm rankings)

 

I'm not even debating the realities above one way or the other.

 

My argument is that it was this FO's decisions and choices alone that led us to '24, and they are accountable. Any business where the senior leadership just infer "well we have a giant budget, but couldn't possibly have known that the employees we chose to hire would have sucked so much" is f***ing doomed in the long run. We need fresh eyes for this deadline and off season.

[Laika]

The org has also already f***ed up two IL decisions this year with Gausman and Yimi

 

Just a clown show at this point

[BigCecil]

Add Yariel Rodriguez to that group (0.1 WAR), and Otto Lopez has a higher WAR than the Jays entire off season right now. Sadly we can’t even say “if the Jays kept him” because you know damn well he wouldn’t have 3 home runs in May if he was still in this org.

 

I think the off season moves are playing out as expected. Green getting hurt obviously sucks but he’s a RP so volatility in any form kinda comes with the territory. Not surprised with any of the other results. The position player adds in the off season were gross.

 

Good point. I forgot Yariel cause IL and he is a wildcard. $49M ARO off season collectively worth net 0.4 WAR net thus far in 2024. I actually think we are getting sort of about what I expected from this collective.

[Spanky99]

Eeyore'a gloomy place...

[BigCecil]

Eeyore'a gloomy place...

 

Sorry Spank. I think you know me and that I was us to be a great franchise/team and I want us to win. As fans you can't really do anything about anything. I just don't believe this team will play .600 ball the rest of 2024, and the next phase of this team's direction needs fresh eyes sooner rather than later. We have to clear eyed about where we are really at. I don't want to become the ChiSox.

[L54]

Tommy Pham, who basically everyone here wanted as a buy low LF, is already at 0.8 WAR after signing late and free with the White Sox

 

Yes everyone but the pitching and defense crew wanted him because he can actually hit

 

Same as JDM. Ohhh but he’s a DH only. So is Vogelbach

 

But there was nothing that could’ve been done to fix the offense!

 

Wrong wrong wrong

[Spanky99]

Sorry Spank. I think you know me and that I was us to be a great franchise/team and I want us to win. As fans you can't really do anything about anything. I just don't believe this team will play .600 ball the rest of 2024, and the next phase of this team's direction needs fresh eyes sooner rather than later. We have to clear eyed about where we are really at. I don't want to become the ChiSox.

 

It was tongue in cheek my dude, no one can be happy with this org as is. I'd be happy if they turn it around cause nobody in the front office is getting fired till October.

[Spanky99]

Yes everyone but the pitching and defense crew wanted him because he can actually hit

 

Same as JDM. Ohhh but he’s a DH only. So is Vogelbach

 

But there was nothing that could’ve been done to fix the offense!

 

Wrong wrong wrong

 

lol... there was a Pitching and Defence Crew???

[glory]

Yes everyone but the pitching and defense crew wanted him because he can actually hit

 

Same as JDM. Ohhh but he’s a DH only. So is Vogelbach

 

But there was nothing that could’ve been done to fix the offense!

 

Wrong wrong wrong

 

Hoskins has a 132 wRC+ and 9 home runs as well. It’s crazy that in a weak FA market, the only position that had actual options was DH, and the Jays ended up going with a 40 year old on the decline.

[Spanky99]

Babe leading off, Vogelbach in over Turner.

[L54]

lol... there was a Pitching and Defence Crew???

 

Can’t tell if serious

[BigCecil]

It was tongue in cheek my dude, no one can be happy with this org as is. I'd be happy if they turn it around cause nobody in the front office is getting fired till October.

 

I'm not so sure about that. If the dissent in the fan base is loud enough and starts to show up in the TV eyeballs and bums in seats, I could see Ross go before the deadline. The BOD will step in. Trust me, they know whats unfolding and building. They made some huge financial bets on this FO.

 

I will do everything in my feeble non existent power to make that happen lol. I dread Ross handling the deadline at this point.

Edited May 19, 2024 by BigCecil

[L54]

Hoskins has a 132 wRC+ and 9 home runs as well. It’s crazy that in a weak FA market, the only position that had actual options was DH, and the Jays ended up going with a 40 year old on the decline.

 

He’s been a stud too. They prioritized positional versatility (or so they thought) in Turner over the bat itself. I think they thought they might be able to plug Turner at third

[BigCecil]

Hoskins has a 132 wRC+ and 9 home runs as well. It’s crazy that in a weak FA market, the only position that had actual options was DH, and the Jays ended up going with a 40 year old on the decline.

 

Hoskins for $17M ARO has been worth the same net WAR as our entire collective of $49M ARO of off season investments.

[Spanky99]

Can’t tell if serious

 

It was obvious they went that way, I don't think anyone was championing it.

[Spanky99]

I'm not so sure about that. If the dissent in the fan base is loud enough and starts to show up in the TV eyeballs and bums in seats, I could see Ross go before the deadline. The BOD will step in. Trust me, they know whats unfolding and building. They made some huge financial bets on this FO.

 

I will do everything in my feeble non existent power to make that happen lol. I dread Ross handling the deadline at this point.

 

If that happens, no sweat off my balls, lol. I know you have a good source, I just doubt it happens, we'll see.

[Spanky99]

The Jays were in on all these guys save for Pham, I think. s*** happens.

[BigCecil]

The Jays were in on all these guys save for Pham, I think. s*** happens.

 

One of my favorite movies Glengarry Glenn Ross and "coffee is for closers" scene. Its true in business across the spectrum. They did spend $50M ARO. Question is did they close the right assets.

 

1st prize is a Cadillac. 2nd prize is a set of steak knives. 3rd prize is you are fired. ABC is "Always Be Closing".

 

[Stangstag]

Babe leading off, Vogelbach in over Turner.

 

Vogel over Turner AND Jansen

 

Moronic

[hanton]

[Stangstag]

 

Yeah no f***ing s*** we’ve all been saying this. But apparently “the front office knows better”

 

Looks like the front office lets the players decide when they go on the IL, which is a recipe for disaster. Most athletes will never remove themselves from the game voluntarily.