General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[wamco]

What are you talking about, man? If my aunt had a dick would she be my uncle...

 

None of the questions I asked you were hard. I even purposely didn’t use any big words.

 

General questions for all if anyone wants to chime in I suppose.

[Stangstag]

Everyone acting like Kim is no big deal. If we traded for him he might be our best player. Would certainly be in the Top 3.

 

Manoah might be our worst player.

 

That’s a ridiculous statement. Don’t agree at all.

 

We’ll see how it plays out next year

[Stangstag]

HS Kim is controlled for one season. He is a slap hitting middle infielder whose value comes from the field. He’s a better version of IKF who they just committed two years to

 

If this magical pitching lab has any credibility it will be able to turn Chubby into at least someone who can not embarrass himself in a big league rotation

 

I think it’s extremely short sighted to make that move. Then people want Cronenworth too?! I’d rather just roll with the status quo than get abused by the Padres

 

Totally agree

[Stangstag]

FYI all the people who want to keep Manoah have perfectly reasonable takes IMO. I totally get the arguments for keeping him.

 

It's a sell-low situation which is almost never good (though his trade value could still bottom out just yet). We need pitching depth. He's got 4 years of control left. He's obviously a volatile asset so throw the projections out. How good will the return even be? Etc. That all makes sense to me.

 

As others have said, the Jays probably have more inside info on his situation and if he can be fixed too. Tough call to make as a fan because we are flying blind with his weird situation.

 

Backpedaling so you can claim you weren’t wrong about Manoah when he rebounds.

[Stangstag]

This time last year there was a push to trade Berrios for something. Manoah was worse but offset by the control.

 

In the end I think Manoah gets traded for the best deal available (kinda like the Moreno trade last year) because the FO / Manoah relationship is toxic.

 

Its like everyone forgets that most people wanted to dump Bo last year too

[Jonn]

Big difference between Berrios and Manoah is his track record of success. The underlying numbers weren’t as terrible either. It was clear Jose needed to mix up his sequencing but more than he just wasn’t executing pitches despite showing no decline in stuff. He was leaving way to many pitches in the middle of the plate and he was getting absolutely punished for it.

 

Meanwhile Manoah doesn’t have a track record of success. Performed well above his projected performance. And completely lost all command last Season. People were expecting a regression nobody expected him to completely fall apart and become unusable.

 

I don’t like the comparison because Manoah both lost his command and quality of stuff. His slider went from one of the best pitches in the league to one of the worst.

 

I for one have no idea what were gonna get from Manoah. And that’s kinda scary.

[Terminator]

That’s a ridiculous statement. Don’t agree at all.

 

We’ll see how it plays out next year

 

What statement in that post was ridiculous?

[wamco]

Big difference between Berrios and Manoah is his track record of success. The underlying numbers weren’t as terrible either. It was clear Jose needed to mix up his sequencing but more than he just wasn’t executing pitches despite showing no decline in stuff. He was leaving way to many pitches in the middle of the plate and he was getting absolutely punished for it.

 

Meanwhile Manoah doesn’t have a track record of success. Performed well above his projected performance. And completely lost all command last Season. People were expecting a regression nobody expected him to completely fall apart and become unusable.

 

I don’t like the comparison because Manoah both lost his command and quality of stuff. His slider went from one of the best pitches in the league to one of the worst.

 

I for one have no idea what were gonna get from Manoah. And that’s kinda scary.

 

I also now wonder about his start in A ball where he gave up 9 runs or so in an inning. Was that a FU to the jays given what we know now? I can’t rule it out

[wamco]

Its like everyone forgets that most people wanted to dump Bo last year too

 

They did? Why?

 

Didn’t he end on a massive heater? My buddy got his hr ball when we went to a weekend series in Pitt in september

[Jonn]

They did? Why?

 

DidnÂ’t he end on a massive heater? My buddy got his hr ball when we went to a weekend series in Pitt in september

 

When Fred Van Vleet left for free in free agency it really opened a lot of eyes in Toronto about not wanting to lose star free agents for nothing. So naturally Bo Bichette came up in a lot of conversations as someone the Jays can’t afford to lose for nothing.

 

That’s where most of these conversations sparked from where I believe.

[Spanky99]

Big difference between Berrios and Manoah is his track record of success. The underlying numbers weren’t as terrible either. It was clear Jose needed to mix up his sequencing but more than he just wasn’t executing pitches despite showing no decline in stuff. He was leaving way to many pitches in the middle of the plate and he was getting absolutely punished for it.

 

Meanwhile Manoah doesn’t have a track record of success. Performed well above his projected performance. And completely lost all command last Season. People were expecting a regression nobody expected him to completely fall apart and become unusable.

 

I don’t like the comparison because Manoah both lost his command and quality of stuff. His slider went from one of the best pitches in the league to one of the worst.

 

I for one have no idea what were gonna get from Manoah. And that’s kinda scary.

 

Comparing Manoah to Berrios is fool's gold.

[Spanky99]

When Fred Van Vleet left for free in free agency it really opened a lot of eyes in Toronto about not wanting to lose star free agents for nothing. So naturally Bo Bichette came up in a lot of conversations as someone the Jays can’t afford to lose for nothing.

 

That’s where most of these conversations sparked from where I believe.

 

Where on reddit, Facebook, SN comments, lol?

[Terminator]

Backpedaling so you can claim you weren’t wrong about Manoah when he rebounds.

 

No I've been pretty neutral on Manoah all offseason so I'm definitely open to the arguments for keeping him. I am pretty damn concerned about Manoah though and I don't trust pitchers bouncing back like I would if he were a hitter.

 

I also think Kim is criminally underrated around these parts. Cheers.

[L54]

My argument isn’t even to keep Manoah, it’s that Kim looks like a prime sell high candidate

 

I don’t really like anything about Manoah except the fact that his build looks like he could handle 160 innings a year if he wasn’t a bag of milk

[Spanky99]

My argument isn’t even to keep Manoah, it’s that Kim looks like a prime sell high candidate

 

I don’t really like anything about Manoah except the fact that his build looks like he could handle 160 innings a year if he wasn’t a bag of milk

 

That's the gamble my man. I mean, if it were to happen.

[Terminator]

My argument isn’t even to keep Manoah, it’s that Kim looks like a prime sell high candidate

 

I don’t really like anything about Manoah except the fact that his build looks like he could handle 160 innings a year if he wasn’t a bag of milk

 

Fair enough but these KBO guys are interesting. They barely see velocity so for him to show improvement year after year makes me think he hasn’t even hit his peak yet.

 

I didn’t realize his batted ball profile sucked so bad though so thanks for that. It’s all a stupid Morosi hypo anyway. Maybe we can trade Manoah for something else or maybe he bounces back.

[Stangstag]

My argument isn’t even to keep Manoah, it’s that Kim looks like a prime sell high candidate

 

I don’t really like anything about Manoah except the fact that his build looks like he could handle 160 innings a year if he wasn’t a bag of milk

 

Buy high + sell low in the same trade. Not great recipe for success

[Terminator]

Buy high + sell low in the same trade. Not great recipe for success

 

Wow you couldn't fit anymore platitudes into this post if you tried. Reads like a Derek Jeter post-game interview.

[jaysblue]

Regardless, this upcoming season will be an important one for Manoah. He either takes a step forward and returns close to his 2021/2022 self or he becomes the next Ricky Romero/Josh Towers. If he takes that step forward, both the Jays and Manoah benefit! If he doesn't progress and we see more diminished stuff from him, he loses even more trade value and likely becomes a DFA candidate or non-tender candidate next offseason. If Manoah shits the bed again in 2024, his value goes even lower and he could be worth nothing at all. Again, the Jays FO know more than we do, so they can make a more informed decision in regards to Manoah than we can.

 

His value yes is at an all-time low, but he still has some value given the 4 years of control, his $750,000 salary this season and the potential/upside he carries. So yes, a team might roll the dice on an arm like Manoah like trading a player on an expiring contract or another similar player as Manoah who has potential and needs a change of scenery. Someone like a Jarred Kelenic when he was with the Mariners or someone like Kim fit that bill.

 

The other issue is the relationship between both Manoah and the organization. If Manoah is still a baby, complains and has attitude issues, or if the relationship is very strained and hasn't been repaired, you likely have to move him regardless. You don't want a player like him in the clubhouse or organization. If the relationship has been mended with both the FO and players, if Manoah has humbled himself and has put in the time this offseason to work harder and to get into better shape, then I have no issue in giving Manoah a chance to bounce back in 2024.

 

If the Jays end up trading him, I'll trust enough in their FO that they saw something they can't fix or the relationship was too strained. I won't lose sleep over it. If they decide to keep him, I'll trust enough in their FO that they believe Manoah could bounce back and will be rooting for him!

[jaysblue]

Backpedaling so you can claim you weren’t wrong about Manoah when he rebounds.

 

Don't think anyone is backpedaling at all. Most rational posters on here know there is a possibility Manoah could rebound.

[jaysblue]

That’s a ridiculous statement. Don’t agree at all.

 

We’ll see how it plays out next year

 

Last season according to Fangraphs, Kim would have been the Jays best positional player and second best player on the roster overall behind Kevin Gausman.

[BCZ]

2023-24 offseason so far in summary:

[jaysblue]

HS Kim is controlled for one season. He is a slap hitting middle infielder whose value comes from the field. He’s a better version of IKF who they just committed two years to

 

Kim did manage to hit 17 HR's last season playing half of his games at Petco. In his last two seasons, he has been a .700-.750 OPS type of bat. Last season he started showing some more pop and had a 112 wRC+. In the KBO he did display some okay pop. Given his age and his improvements in 2023, I could see him being a bat who could hit between 20-25 HR's and maybe hit for more gap power as well. Lastly, his speed is a huge asset (38 SB's last season) and he increased his BB% to 12% last season. I think he would be a great fit here, and the Jays would have the entire season to convince him to sign an extension.

[L54]

Kim did manage to hit 17 HR's last season playing half of his games at Petco. In his last two seasons, he has been a .700-.750 OPS type of bat. Last season he started showing some more pop and had a 112 wRC+. In the KBO he did display some okay pop. Given his age and his improvements in 2023, I could see him being a bat who could hit between 20-25 HR's and maybe hit for more gap power as well. Lastly, his speed is a huge asset (38 SB's last season) and he increased his BB% to 12% last season. I think he would be a great fit here, and the Jays would have the entire season to convince him to sign an extension.

 

I don’t think he’s anywhere near 25 home runs and signing him to an extension as a 4 WAR player would be even worse than just trading Manoah for him

 

Just my opinion

[jaysblue]

Trade Manoah for Kim.

 

Sign Soler to DH.

 

Sign another OF with pop like Duvall.

 

Bring back Ryu on a cheap one-year deal to warm up the No. 5 spot in the rotation.

 

Lineup:

 

RF Springer

SS Bichette

1B Guerrero Jr.

DH Soler

2B Kim

C Jansen/Kirk

LF Duvall/Kiermier

CF Varsho

3B Schneider/IKF

 

Rotation:

1. Gausman

2. Berrios

3. Bassitt

4. Kikuchi

5. Ryu

 

Boom!

[jaysblue]

I don’t think he’s anywhere near 25 home runs and signing him to an extension as a 4 WAR player would be even worse than just trading Manoah for him

 

Just my opinion

 

Yeah it's a possibility he doesn't develop anymore power and he just is a .750 OPS type of bat.

 

Not sure what kind of extension he would get or ask for - don't think it would be too crazy though.

[harvey16]

Trade Manoah for Kim.

 

Sign Soler to DH.

 

Sign another OF with pop like Duvall.

 

Bring back Ryu on a cheap one-year deal to warm up the No. 5 spot in the rotation.

 

Lineup:

 

RF Springer

SS Bichette

1B Guerrero Jr.

DH Soler

2B Kim

C Jansen/Kirk

LF Duvall/Kiermier

CF Varsho

3B Schneider/IKF

 

Rotation:

1. Gausman

2. Berrios

3. Bassitt

4. Kikuchi

5. Ryu

 

Boom!

 

Manoa has absolutely zero trade value right now. Give him another shot this year, he's still only 26. From videos he looks to be in great shape and has lost a bunch of weight. I think he got humbled last season and will come back strong looking to prove himself. Too soon to give up on him already, he's proven he has the tools to be an elite pitcher, he simply came into to the season last year

out of shape and cocky thinking he had it figured out. MLB hitters adjusted and served him a big piece of humble pie.

[jaysblue]

Manoa has absolutely zero trade value right now. Give him another shot this year, he's still only 26. From videos he looks to be in great shape and has lost a bunch of weight. I think he got humbled last season and will come back strong looking to prove himself. Too soon to give up on him already, he's proven he has the tools to be an elite pitcher, he simply came into to the season last year

out of shape and cocky thinking he had it figured out. MLB hitters adjusted and served him a big piece of humble pie.

 

I wouldn't say he has "zero trade value" right now, but yeah it's definitely at an all-time low. Definitely not opposed to keeping him and hoping he bounces back especially if there aren't any good deals out there! If he doesn't show any improvement in 2024, then his trade value is likely zero.

[Krylian]

When Fred Van Vleet left for free in free agency it really opened a lot of eyes in Toronto about not wanting to lose star free agents for nothing. So naturally Bo Bichette came up in a lot of conversations as someone the Jays can’t afford to lose for nothing.

 

That’s where most of these conversations sparked from where I believe.

 

People didn't know it's not great to lose FA's for nothing before Van Vleet?

[Dick_Pole]

Manoah was seen as a big baby last year. But then what happened with Berrios being pulled early, a collective WTF from the players and then Schneider being thrown under bus, Manoah was partially vindicated in my eyes. In that it certainly wasn't 100% his fault as initial optics indicated. We had Atkins acting like a weaselly weenie two months later. Who knows what kind of conversation those two had in private. Especially if Manoah's size and temperament gives Atkins PTSD from his high school years. Reasonable to think that Jays FO can be evasive or non-direct with Manoah because they are a little bit scared of him. Then the 25 yo who tasted his first bit of adversity is left to navigate the situation all by himself. Then does what every person his age has been trained to do. Cry on social media when things don't go his way.