General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[max silver]

Oh I was responding to max::

 

“Orelvis martinez who has a chance to be an above average defender at short stop is a really nice prospect.”

 

Ah my response was a little poorly worded. Laika mentioned that Nimmala was basically Orelvis Martinez, but Nimmala has a shot to be a really good short stop defender so I took the next step to say that Nimmala could end up as a similar offensive prospect to Orelvis but with a shot to be plus defender.

[Spanky99]

Oh I was responding to max::

 

“Orelvis martinez who has a chance to be an above average defender at short stop is a really nice prospect.”

 

Just maybe you should learn to quote posts if you're talking to someone specifically?

 

Anyhow...

 

2. Orelvis Martinez

SS

 

Ht: 5'11" | Wt: 200 | B-T: R-R

 

Age: null

 

BA Grade/Risk:55/High.

 

Track Record: Martinez signed out of the Dominican Republic for $3.51 million in 2018. He skipped the Dominican Summer League and made his pro debut in the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League in 2019, hitting .275/.352/.549 in 40 games as a 17-year-old. Martinez moved quickly following the pandemic-lost 2020 season, seeing both levels of Class A in 2021 and spending all of 2022 at Double-A New Hampshire. After an uneven showing as a 20-year-old at Double-A, Martinez returned to the level in 2023. After a slow start, he hit .268/.390/.557 from May 1 through the end of the first half. He was promoted to Triple-A Buffalo on July 18 and spent the winter with Licey of the Dominican League.

 

Scouting Report: Martinez entered 2023 trending toward a power-over-everything hitter with major questions around his bat-to-ball skills and swing decisions. Instead, he showed a more refined and patient approach without sacrificing his aggressiveness. Martinez showed a willingness to make pitchers work and in turn saw better pitches in the zone. He made the most of those opportunities as his simple, powerful swing easily backspins his best contact to his pull side. Martinez has always had strong hands and the ability to get to plus power in games. His improvements in approach and contact have allowed him to project to get to his power against more advanced pitchers. Martinez is a fringe-average runner who will turn in an average run time on occasion. He’s not rangy afield but shows the ability to play multiple infield positions. He has focused on shortstop and third base in pro ball, but his best long-term position is likely second base, where he has enough range and his plus arm would be an asset.

 

The Future: Martinez is a bat-first second baseman with the ability to hit 30-plus home runs at peak.

 

Scouting Grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 60 | Run: 45 | Fielding: 45 | Arm: 60.

[wamco]

Ah, I see

 

Well let’s just pray both pan out to be mlb starters somewhere on the diamond. I’d take

That

[Jonn]

I sure hope they don't walk Bo to free agency.

 

If he doesn't come around on an extension I would hope they trade him next off season.

 

If they let Bo walk in Free Agency that would set the franchise back half a decade. If you can’t extend him you 200% need to trade him. Under no circumstances do you let him get to unrestricted free agency

[wilko]

If they let Bo walk in Free Agency that would set the franchise back half a decade. If you can’t extend him you 200% need to trade him. Under no circumstances do you let him get to unrestricted free agency

 

If they want max value for Bo (If they do decide to trade him) they will have to do it soon.

[max silver]

If they let Bo walk in Free Agency that would set the franchise back half a decade. If you can’t extend him you 200% need to trade him. Under no circumstances do you let him get to unrestricted free agency

 

I don't think it would be anywhere close to that dire if Bo were to leave in free agency. It certainly wouldn't be ideal if Bo leaves and the team received only a draft pick but this isn't the hard capped NHL where cap space and asset management has the same degree of importance.

[max silver]

If they want max value for Bo (If they do decide to trade him) they will have to do it soon.

 

I suspect the team would have zero interest in trading Bo before the 2024 season, but if they managed to re-sign Chapman and swing a trade for someone like Adames or Kim then Bo could certainly be moved when his value is at it's highest and the team might even be better off for it depending on the type of return they were able to receive. Perhaps something like a good young right handed outfielder could be acquired, or a good young starter, several nearly MLB ready prospects etc.

[Spanky99]

[glory]

From Ken Rosenthal:

 

On Dec. 29, ESPN’s Enrique Rojas reported that the Blue Jays had “taken the lead” in the bidding for Cuban free-agent right-hander Yariel Rodríguez. Over the past 2 1/2 weeks, I have consistently heard the same. The Jays are optimistic they will land Rodríguez, according to a source briefed on their pursuits. But hurdles evidently remain in his immigration, preventing the Jays from completing a deal.

 

Rodríguez, who turns 27 on March 10, pitched mainly as a starter in Cuba from 2015 to ’19. He joined a Japanese club, the Chunichi Dragons, in ’20, and produced a monster season as a reliever in ’22. After starting again for Cuba last spring in the World Baseball Classic, he sat out the season rather than report back to the Dragons. Major League Baseball recognized him as a free agent in November after the Dragons released him.

 

How would Rodríguez fit with the Jays or another other club? Likely as a depth starter, at least initially. Rodríguez would need to build up his innings after not pitching last season. He might not be ready to make an impact until the second half. His fallback position is a return to the bullpen. In that sense, he is similar to the Braves’ Reynaldo López and Giants’ Hicks, two relievers who will be stretched out as starters with their new clubs.

 

If Rodríguez made a successful transition, he would give the Jays added protection for a rotation that last season finished third in the majors with a 3.85 ERA. He also would loom as an alternative for righty Alek Manoah, who twice was demoted to the minors last season and was shut down in September after receiving multiple injections in his right shoulder.

 

The Jays, who earlier this offseason pursued Shohei Ohtani in free agency and Juan Soto in a trade, still want to add another hitter, preferably left-handed. One possibility, free agent Joc Pederson, is thought to prefer playing on the West Coast. Brandon Belt, who had 19 homers and an .858 OPS in 404 plate appearances for the Jays last season, has indicated he wants to continue his career. Jorge Soler, J.D. Martinez and Justin Turner are among the right-handed DH types who are still available.

 

To this point, infielder Isiah Kiner-Falefa and center fielder Kevin Kiermaier are the Jays’ only significant additions. They aren’t done. They can’t be done. Rodríguez eventually could be part of their picture.

[max silver]

From Ken Rosenthal:

 

Rodriguez produced great numbers in his final season in Japan.

 

2022 1.15 ERA 9.9 K/9 3.0 BB/9 54.2 innings

 

I like Rodriguez a lot as a member of the bullpen as his numbers as a reliever were stellar in his final season in Japan. His numbers as a starter were a bit more middling as he ran into issues with the long ball. I would guess that the Jays would intend to use him as a long man out of the pen/swingman, but they also have Mitch White who is out of options who will likely be given an opportunity to see if he can build on his impressive run to end the season.

 

White was sitting mid to upper 90's with his heater and was carving up opposition batters. In his last 7 starts he produced an impressive 1.89 ERA/3.21 FIP. Command was seemingly a bit of an issue as he walked 3.78/9, but something to keep in mind is that the league was using a combined ABS/challenge system behind the plate where the strike zone was reportedly the size of a postage stamp. White made this a bit of a non issue however as he managed to strike out 11.61/9.

 

Hopefully if Rodriguez is attained he can be sent to the minor leagues in case White continues to impress in spring training, and this would allow Rodriguez to build up his innings base after a year away from baseball to allow him to serve as a depth starter later in the season if required.

 

He has a Fangraphs page which doesn't have terribly exciting projections with role appearing to be that of swingman:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/yariel-rodriguez/sa3023349/stats?position=P

[L54]

Bullpen is getting pretty bloated because Mitch White is definitely on the opening day roster. Adding this guy would effectively give them two long men which is awkward and I don’t imagine they wouldn’t plan on moving either of them exclusively to single inning work

[L54]

Or just put Fatso in AAA and have Mitch White make starts to begin the year

[Laika]

Or just put Fatso in AAA and have Mitch White make starts to begin the year

 

This is the way.

 

Also, at least one P will get hurt in spring anyway so it's not a projected crunch until it looks like there are maybe 3 too many P

[L54]

This is the way.

 

Also, at least one P will get hurt in spring anyway so it's not a projected crunch until it looks like there are maybe 3 too many P

 

Ya that’s true

[max silver]

Or just put Fatso in AAA and have Mitch White make starts to begin the year

 

I expect a bounceback season from Manoah but it remains to be seen what his future ceiling represents. It could be tough to fully recreate the levels of success that he enjoyed in his first few seasons, but even becoming a mid rotation level of starter would still provide a nice benefit to the club.

 

I recall a rumor awhile ago that Alek suffered some sort of offseason injury that affected his ability to maintain his conditioning, but this is obviously suspect as a shoulder issue wouldn't have prevented Alek from keeping hitting the treadmill as that primarily involves the lower half of the body. I think the offseason shoulder issue messed up his mechanics and he never fully rediscovered his delivery. The command should be cleaned up once he squares away the mechanical issues, but the issue of drastically reduced stuff remains a huge concern. There is the ever present low hanging fruit explanation that he got too fat to pitch, but a shoulder issue is a far bigger indicator of the huge massive in stuff. I hope we finally hear his side of the story as it seems he very well may be convinced he was suffering from some sort of injury related issue.

[Laika]

I actually don't know why we would expect a bounce back from Manoah

 

It's not like Vlad where there are good underlying numbers

 

Manure was just absolute dogshit with s***** stuff and s***** command and a s***** attitude

 

I am expecting nothing and would prefer him to be AAA depth out of the gates

[max silver]

I actually don't know why we would expect a bounce back from Manoah

 

It's not like Vlad where there are good underlying numbers

 

Manure was just absolute dogshit with s***** stuff and s***** command and a s***** attitude

 

I am expecting nothing and would prefer him to be AAA depth out of the gates

 

I think there is something to the arm/shoulder troubles that led to a lot of the downturn he experienced this season. I would hope that he was receiving bad advise from his agent or some other influence regarding the refusal to report to AAA, but ultimately he's going to need to atone for his sin. This starts with his teammates as they are the ultimate arbiters of whether he's fully welcomed back into the fold. After the giant slap to the face to his teammates and the organization as a whole Alek is going to have to earn his way back into the good graces.

[Rusty_Savage]

I actually don't know why we would expect a bounce back from Manoah

 

It's not like Vlad where there are good underlying numbers

 

Manure was just absolute dogshit with s***** stuff and s***** command and a s***** attitude

 

I am expecting nothing and would prefer him to be AAA depth out of the gates

Manure.....lol

 

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[L54]

I expect a bounceback season from Manoah but it remains to be seen what his future ceiling represents. It could be tough to fully recreate the levels of success that he enjoyed in his first few seasons, but even becoming a mid rotation level of starter would still provide a nice benefit to the club.

 

I recall a rumor awhile ago that Alek suffered some sort of offseason injury that affected his ability to maintain his conditioning, but this is obviously suspect as a shoulder issue wouldn't have prevented Alek from keeping hitting the treadmill as that primarily involves the lower half of the body. I think the offseason shoulder issue messed up his mechanics and he never fully rediscovered his delivery. The command should be cleaned up once he squares away the mechanical issues, but the issue of drastically reduced stuff remains a huge concern. There is the ever present low hanging fruit explanation that he got too fat to pitch, but a shoulder issue is a far bigger indicator of the huge massive in stuff. I hope we finally hear his side of the story as it seems he very well may be convinced he was suffering from some sort of injury related issue.

 

That’s great he can still start in Buffalo and make 20 starts for Toronto if he proves he doesn’t suck ass

[Terminator]

I've seen everything from backend starter to high leverage reliever with Yariel so he might be the kind of starting depth we need while also being versatile enough to contribute in the pen until called upon.

[max silver]

That’s great he can still start in Buffalo and make 20 starts for Toronto if he proves he doesn’t suck ass

 

Yeah that's always an option. The club would need to be ready to make a quick pivot if the alternative 5th starter gets lit up at the start of the season no matter who in manning the position.

[glory]

I actually don't know why we would expect a bounce back from Manoah

 

It's not like Vlad where there are good underlying numbers

 

Manure was just absolute dogshit with s***** stuff and s***** command and a s***** attitude

 

I am expecting nothing and would prefer him to be AAA depth out of the gates

 

Yeah the difference in his Savant page from 2021-22 to 2023 is crazy. Best case you can chalk that up to an injury or bad conditioning so maybe he can rebound, but I don't think it's certain that he does, or even comes close. On top of that, the pitch clock with runners on is going from 20 to 18 so it's going to be an even bigger test to his endurance/conditioning. Adding another starter is probably a good idea, although I guess someone like Rodriguez who can act as a swing man/multi inning reliever is also a good option since Tiedemann is likely going to be on an innings limit as well so you can piggyback (assuming Manoah doesn't rebound).

[L54]

Yeah that's always an option. The club would need to be ready to make a quick pivot if the alternative 5th starter gets lit up at the start of the season no matter who in manning the position.

 

It’s Mitch White in this scenario. They aren’t just going to DFA him so he’s either the long man or in the rotation. If he’s in the rotation he’s not getting punted after two bad starts.

[wilko]

It’s Mitch White in this scenario. They aren’t just going to DFA him so he’s either the long man or in the rotation. If he’s in the rotation he’s not getting punted after two bad starts.

 

Why not? He's had like 90 good innings in the MLB at 29. The leash should be short.

[Laika]

Yeah the difference in his Savant page from 2021-22 to 2023 is crazy. Best case you can chalk that up to an injury or bad conditioning so maybe he can rebound, but I don't think it's certain that he does, or even comes close. On top of that, the pitch clock with runners on is going from 20 to 18 so it's going to be an even bigger test to his endurance/conditioning. Adding another starter is probably a good idea, although I guess someone like Rodriguez who can act as a swing man/multi inning reliever is also a good option since Tiedemann is likely going to be on an innings limit as well so you can piggyback (assuming Manoah doesn't rebound).

 

it is unfortunate but this happens from time to time with pitchers

they just decline in their 20s and they are done

sometimes they get hurt, sometimes the league figures them out, sometimes they do a bunch of blow and crash a speed boat into a bridge GTA style

Toronto should expect nothing from him

he never had good stuff, really. it was mid/back rotation stuff at best.

[wamco]

Talking up manoah only to stick him in AAA to start the year is just passive agressive enough for AlphAtkins. He surely would prefer to trade him after manoah showed him up, but Manoah nuked his value.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Manoah was also one of the slowest SP's in the league in 2022, taking a ton of time between pitches. No doubt the pitch clock messed him up and I doubt it helped that he was a big fat out of shape guy.

[saskjayfan]

it is unfortunate but this happens from time to time with pitchers

they just decline in their 20s and they are done

sometimes they get hurt, sometimes the league figures them out, sometimes they do a bunch of blow and crash a speed boat into a bridge GTA style

Toronto should expect nothing from him

he never had good stuff, really. it was mid/back rotation stuff at best.

 

You're putting a lot of faith in the numbers and 87 innings and ignoring 300+ innings. He came into camp out of shape and had a arm issue and had to adjust to the pitch clock. If you've done it before, you can do it again. I fully expect Manoah to be better this year. He's a competitive dude and his slider will be better this year.

[Terminator]

Currently talking myself into Yariel Rodriguez as a backend starter with a 60-80 pitch limit.

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/yariel-rodriguez-s-six-strikeouts

[max silver]

You're putting a lot of faith in the numbers and 87 innings and ignoring 300+ innings. He came into camp out of shape and had a arm issue and had to adjust to the pitch clock. If you've done it before, you can do it again. I fully expect Manoah to be better this year. He's a competitive dude and his slider will be better this year.

 

Manoah also needs to regain some of the lost pep on his fastball as he's basically turned into a soft tosser that relied on command for the handful of good starts he provided.