Former Blue Jays Thread

[Spanky__99]

1 hour ago, Brownie19 said:

Someone doesn't like criticism.  Don't take it so serious 🤡

Bingo, I was laughing at the humour in it, but some fellas run soft. Not to mention you're right, that's the point of a contending team, to better their immediate future. We're not fully rebuilding anytime soon.

[John_Havok]

14 hours ago, Spanky__99 said:

Bingo, I was laughing at the humour in it, but some fellas run soft. Not to mention you're right, that's the point of a contending team, to better their immediate future. We're not fully rebuilding anytime soon.

It is at least somewhat interesting to wonder how a guy who was high level in Cleveland, an org that had churned out solid pitching consistently for years while he was there (and still has in his absence).... hasn't been able to replicate that system in Toronto, even now with the cutting edge sports complex and lab. 

Possible reasons:

1. Not a primary focus since he has far more resources here to make FA signings. (this would be a silly reason, but ... it's kind of a theme in teams with large payrolls)

2. Hasn't been able to poach all the right staff from other orgs yet for the system or the lab. (more plausible)

3. Just not drafting the "right" pitchers, aka scouting not very good combined with chronically low draft position and reduced # of picks.  (definitely at least part of the story)

4. Perception of success only being developing an ace every other year (exaggeration for effect - also a factor)

Thoughts?

 

[jaysblue]

5 hours ago, John_Havok said:

It is at least somewhat interesting to wonder how a guy who was high level in Cleveland, an org that had churned out solid pitching consistently for years while he was there (and still has in his absence).... hasn't been able to replicate that system in Toronto, even now with the cutting edge sports complex and lab. 

Possible reasons:

1. Not a primary focus since he has far more resources here to make FA signings. (this would be a silly reason, but ... it's kind of a theme in teams with large payrolls)

2. Hasn't been able to poach all the right staff from other orgs yet for the system or the lab. (more plausible)

3. Just not drafting the "right" pitchers, aka scouting not very good combined with chronically low draft position and reduced # of picks.  (definitely at least part of the story)

4. Perception of success only being developing an ace every other year (exaggeration for effect - also a factor)

Thoughts?

 

I think #3 is probably the biggest factor, but at this point Atkins can't really be separated from #2 either.

Cleveland's pitching development obviously wasn't just Atkins carrying some secret formula with him. It was an entire organizational machine from scouting, drafting, analysts, minor-league coaches, pitching coordinators, etc. But he's also been in Toronto for more than a decade now. At some point, building that kind of infrastructure here was part of the expectation. If there’s one area where I think criticism of Atkins is absolutely warranted, it’s this.

The Jays have spent enormous amounts on Dunedin, the lab, technology and player development, yet they still haven't come close to Cleveland's ability to consistently turn relatively unheralded arms into useful MLB pitchers. And I don't think the standard is developing an ace every other year. If they were regularly producing solid #3/#4 starters and quality relievers internally, that would be a huge success. Instead, Toronto has repeatedly had to spend money or prospect capital acquiring those types of pitchers.

Draft position, lost picks and injuries all matter, but after this many years it's hard to chalk the lack of pitching development up entirely to circumstance. That's what makes it interesting: Atkins came from an organization known for doing more with less in pitching development, moved to one with far greater resources, and Toronto still hasn't developed that same kind of advantage.