General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Rimar]

I got Votto or Belt as our next FA signing

 

Lol

We need much more than this. Soler or Martinez DH, Hader or Hicks for bullpen, and make a trade for an elite player like Trout or blockbuster trade with Cleveland for Bieber and Ramires. We have assets to convince Cleveland, or the Angels (Tidermann, Manoah, Orelvis, Schneider, Varsho). And if we trade Varsho will need sign Bellinger

[L54]

Isn't it already better than 2023?

 

IKF much more versatile than Merrifield

 

+ Org depth near MLB is better

 

Idk man, I’d feel more comfortable if they had any confidence these prospects could play third but doesn’t seem like they do. My concern is the infield

 

It’s it currently stands

 

1B: Vlad/Biggio

2B: Schneider/Biggio/Espinal

3B: IKF/Biggio/Espinal

SS: Bichette/IKF/Espinal

 

Not worried about the outfield it will be fine

 

But the infield is an injury away from looking like Buffalo’s

 

I know somebody is going to say “well you could say that about every other team” but the goal is to be better than every other team

 

Now if they bring in someone who can actually play third and sort of hit, moving IKF to a super utility roll things look much better

[max silver]

Idk man, I’d feel more comfortable if they had any confidence these prospects could play third but doesn’t seem like they do. My concern is the infield

 

It’s it currently stands

 

1B: Vlad/Biggio

2B: Schneider/Biggio/Espinal

3B: IKF/Biggio/Espinal

SS: Bichette/IKF/Espinal

 

Not worried about the outfield it will be fine

 

But the infield is an injury away from looking like Buffalo’s

 

I know somebody is going to say “well you could say that about every other team” but the goal is to be better than every other team

 

Now if they bring in someone who can actually play third and sort of hit, moving IKF to a super utility roll things look much better

 

I also have a hard time saying the roster is improved as compared to the 2023 season. The team is likely to lose Chapman who was a well above average regular despite the extended struggles at times, and the best I think they could hope for with the available pieces at the moment is something maybe approaching an average regular. Schneider and Biggio are both seemingly poor options to man third base with any kind of regularity, and none of the Buffalo crew is tested against major league pitching or even likely ready to man the position full time at the big league level.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Should the Jays trade for Machado??

 

*ducks*

 

lol

 

Terrible contract, still a decent 3B for a few more years probably. They'd have to eat some of that contract, and maybe the Jays get some other sweetener that they need.

[Stangstag]

Should the Jays trade for Machado??

 

*ducks*

 

lol

 

Terrible contract, still a decent 3B for a few more years probably. They'd have to eat some of that contract, and maybe the Jays get some other sweetener that they need.

 

f*** it, yes. We need a vet like him to solidify 3B again and the bat will fit well in the top half of the lineup

[max silver]

Should the Jays trade for Machado??

 

*ducks*

 

lol

 

Terrible contract, still a decent 3B for a few more years probably. They'd have to eat some of that contract, and maybe the Jays get some other sweetener that they need.

 

I'll never understand what the Padres were thinking handing out 10 year deals to Machado and Boegarts. I'd rather the team sign for Chapman instead if they are going to expend this kind of money on a third baseman. Machado just had elbow surgery so while he should be fine moving forward that adds a potential long term health related concern to a dude that's signed into his 40's.

[Jays24]

Shatkins gonna have to get super creative to make this team better than the 2023 product that many hated. With KK/IFK, they're pretty much signaling they're out from the major free agents who sucked anyways. Let's throw around that financial muscle with the Marlins/Padres.

[max silver]

Shatkins gonna have to get super creative to make this team better than the 2023 product that many hated. With KK/IFK, they're pretty much signaling they're out from the major free agents who sucked anyways. Let's throw around that financial muscle with the Marlins/Padres.

 

I don't think these moves should necessarily remove the team from signing any free agents, but worst case scenario if the team completely misses out on their preferred free agency and trade targets these guys are at least competent major league players which create a decent floor for the team.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I'll never understand what the Padres were thinking handing out 10 year deals to Machado and Boegarts. I'd rather the team sign for Chapman instead if they are going to expend this kind of money on a third baseman. Machado just had elbow surgery so while he should be fine moving forward that adds a potential long term health related concern to a dude that's signed into his 40's.

 

I'd still way rather have Machado, especially if the Jays get some salary relief. His offensive ceiling is way higher and he has a much better chance of reaching it in my opinion, plus he still brings a solid glove at 3B too. He makes the Jays a much better team for the next 4-5 years, but yeah...it hurts after that for sure.

[WryNGinger]

Well, what were your specific expectations about any player going there?

 

I don't think building this type of complex is about a specific player and wanting a specific outcome. My expectation would be to uncover a few more 'diamonds in the rough" type talents by utilizing the technology inherent in that type of facility to see what other orgs missed when scouting. Your response seems a bit flippant to be honest, you knew the answer already?

 

Did you not expect more late round pics to turn into real talent when this was announced?

[Jays24]

I don't think these moves should necessarily remove the team from signing any free agents, but worst case scenario if the team completely misses out on their preferred free agency and trade targets these guys are at least competent major league players which create a decent floor for the team.

 

I think it does take them out from the major free agent guys unless their market completely craters and sign a deal much less than where they're at now. You don't give IFK 15M when you could have used that money and a bit more to bring back Hicks who would have more value to the team if u sign Chapman.

[John_Havok]

I don't think building this type of complex is about a specific player and wanting a specific outcome. My expectation would be to uncover a few more 'diamonds in the rough" type talents by utilizing the technology inherent in that type of facility to see what other orgs missed when scouting. Your response seems a bit flippant to be honest, you knew the answer already?

 

Did you not expect more late round pics to turn into real talent when this was announced?

 

No flippancy intended, but it’s hard to provide a potential perspective without a specific statement to know what yours is.

 

You just saw Schneider (28th round), and Horwitz (24th round) play roles on the bid league club last season. Tiedemann took a massive leap forward in his first season after being drafted.

 

Even guys like Connor Cooke, Palmegiani, Jimmy Burnett, Jeunger…Dallas, Santos….the fact these guys are even relevant in the Jays system just 2 full seasons after being drafted shows the complex is doing pretty well.

 

The true strength of the complex isn’t going to be taking some guy from out of nowhere to being a star (though that would nice admittedly), it will be taking guys that otherwise would have flamed out in AA and getting a few good seasons out of them wherever they fit in, whether that’s a middle reliever, #4-5 starter, or even a bench guy. That’s where the real value is

[max silver]

No flippancy intended, but it’s hard to provide a potential perspective without a specific statement to know what yours is.

 

You just saw Schneider (28th round), and Horwitz (24th round) play roles on the bid league club last season. Tiedemann took a massive leap forward in his first season after being drafted.

 

Even guys like Connor Cooke, Palmegiani, Jimmy Burnett, Jeunger…Dallas, Santos….the fact these guys are even relevant in the Jays system just 2 full seasons after being drafted shows the complex is doing pretty well.

 

The true strength of the complex isn’t going to be taking some guy from out of nowhere to being a star (though that would nice admittedly), it will be taking guys that otherwise would have flamed out in AA and getting a few good seasons out of them wherever they fit in, whether that’s a middle reliever, #4-5 starter, or even a bench guy. That’s where the real value is

 

Having this development complex also has a chance to maximize the developmental results of high end players in the system as well. I think having this complex has already paid dividends in allowing prospects a chance to spend some time in Dunedin in the middle of the season for a tune up. This allows pitchers to fine tune their deliveries and pitch design in the pitching lab, allows hitters to work on their swings with advanced modelling in the hitting lab and other assorted behind the scenes development that simply wasn't available to the team previously. I recall Tiedemann has spent time in Dunedin mid season on tune ups, Zulueata did something similar last season as well.

[John_Havok]

Having this development complex also has a chance to maximize the developmental results of high end players in the system as well. I think having this complex has already paid dividends in allowing prospects a chance to spend some time in Dunedin in the middle of the season for a tune up. This allows pitchers to fine tune their deliveries and pitch design in the pitching lab, allows hitters to work on their swings with advanced modelling in the hitting lab and other assorted behind the scenes development that simply wasn't available to the team previously. I recall Tiedemann has spent time in Dunedin mid season on tune ups, Zulueata did something similar last season as well.

 

Yes, and it’s also important to understand it’s never going to be successful for everyone. Fine tuning is a good way to put it.

 

I also neglected to mention that the facility has only been going for what…3 off-seasons now and probably just now are getting close to having it fully staffed with all the people they want. No way it would have running at full steam from day 1

[max silver]

Yes, and it’s also important to understand it’s never going to be successful for everyone. Fine tuning is a good way to put it.

 

I also neglected to mention that the facility has only been going for what…3 off-seasons now and probably just now are getting close to having it fully staffed with all the people they want. No way it would have running at full steam from day 1

 

It seems like there are people that expected this facility to immediately start churning out fully developed prospects from the day it opened. I believe the hitting lab just opened a year ago or thereabouts so it's still relatively early in regards to how long the complex has been running at anything close to full capacity. I like the talent that has been infused into the system in the last 3 or so drafts, and having a complex such as this one can be an important tool in improving the development of the talent in the system over time.

 

I hope that more roster players and minor league prospects eventually make the decision to train full time in Dunedin over the winter as this will allow the facility to reap the maximum rewards for the organization as a whole. Once the organization has all of the necessary technology in place in the hitting and pitching labs, as well as the systems and expertise to properly staff these labs the team can approximate something akin to offseason driveline training in house.

[Stangstag]

I think it does take them out from the major free agent guys unless their market completely craters and sign a deal much less than where they're at now. You don't give IFK 15M when you could have used that money and a bit more to bring back Hicks who would have more value to the team if u sign Chapman.

 

Its 7.5 for one year, not 15. Big difference. Doesn’t take them out of the running for anything, its just an insurance signing. Albeit, an ugly one.

[WryNGinger]

Having this development complex also has a chance to maximize the developmental results of high end players in the system as well. I think having this complex has already paid dividends in allowing prospects a chance to spend some time in Dunedin in the middle of the season for a tune up. This allows pitchers to fine tune their deliveries and pitch design in the pitching lab, allows hitters to work on their swings with advanced modelling in the hitting lab and other assorted behind the scenes development that simply wasn't available to the team previously. I recall Tiedemann has spent time in Dunedin mid season on tune ups, Zulueata did something similar last season as well.

 

This is more what I was referring to.

 

What kind of impact top to bottom on our minor keague depth is it having? For instance (you guys know the names better than I), thekid we got from Seattle that started off slow and killed it late season for Vancouver. Is the complex showing results for "3 years" out players as they climb through the ranks?

 

I feel that a lot of questions and responses here are suspect troll worthy but I honestly would love to talk about our prospect pipeline and where we can see 'semi...lol' permanent results and progression.

 

Was Brandon Barriera's progression a blip or trend?

 

I guess we have to assume the complex will start churning out ML talent but when is a realistic expectation?

[max silver]

This is more what I was referring to.

 

What kind of impact top to bottom on our minor keague depth is it having? For instance (you guys know the names better than I), thekid we got from Seattle that started off slow and killed it late season for Vancouver. Is the complex showing results for "3 years" out players as they climb through the ranks?

 

I feel that a lot of questions and responses here are suspect troll worthy but I honestly would love to talk about our prospect pipeline and where we can see 'semi...lol' permanent results and progression.

 

Was Brandon Barriera's progression a blip or trend?

 

I guess we have to assume the complex will start churning out ML talent but when is a realistic expectation?

 

I just don't think you can definitively state that the complex will start churning out quality MLB players at X date in the future given the complexity and unpredictability of developing major league talent. There are just too many players that hit developmental walls at certain stages of their development on the way through the system. I'd wager that we should have some answers to these questions within a few more seasons once more prospects have a chance to spend their entire minor league career with the complex in place and in full swing.

[WryNGinger]

It seems like there are people that expected this facility to immediately start talent that has been infused into the system in the last 3 or so drafts,

 

I don't think anyone expected day one results from.any player no matter their tenure within the organization...at least not on this site.

[WryNGinger]

I just don't think you can definitively state that the complex will start churning out quality MLB players at X date in the future given the complexity and unpredictability of developing major league talent. There are just too many players that hit developmental walls at certain stages of their development on the way through the system. I'd wager that we should have some answers to theses questions within a few more seasons once more prospects have a chance to spend their entire minor league career with the complex in place and in full swing.

 

Love this! Outliers excepted, maybe D + 3 is a reasonable expectation for the facility to upwardly affect outcome potential? Like 10% of our 3rd round and above prospects might achieve higher than expected results?

 

It's not a be all end all test, I am just trying figure out a realistic expectation on our minor leagues. We spent a s*** ton of money...what did we buy?

[Rimar]

Should the Jays trade for Machado??

 

*ducks*

 

lol

 

Terrible contract, still a decent 3B for a few more years probably. They'd have to eat some of that contract, and maybe the Jays get some other sweetener that . No sure, because if I am no wrong he just recover from surgery , and will likely play DH this year. Better focus on guys like Trout, Ramirez or Robert Jr. But if Padres agree retain part of Machado salary, and don't ask Tidermann + Manoah, yes maybe can think about it.

[saskjayfan]

No flippancy intended, but it’s hard to provide a potential perspective without a specific statement to know what yours is.

 

You just saw Schneider (28th round), and Horwitz (24th round) play roles on the bid league club last season. Tiedemann took a massive leap forward in his first season after being drafted.

 

Even guys like Connor Cooke, Palmegiani, Jimmy Burnett, Jeunger…Dallas, Santos….the fact these guys are even relevant in the Jays system just 2 full seasons after being drafted shows the complex is doing pretty well.

 

The true strength of the complex isn’t going to be taking some guy from out of nowhere to being a star (though that would nice admittedly), it will be taking guys that otherwise would have flamed out in AA and getting a few good seasons out of them wherever they fit in, whether that’s a middle reliever, #4-5 starter, or even a bench guy. That’s where the real value is

 

Players like Schneider drafted in the 28th round is blind luck. You're throwing darts at a dartboard that late in the draft. My concern looking at 2017 to 2020 the only player drafted or from international signings making a contribution is Manoah who most view as a back end to mid rotation starter. I think he'll bounce back and be a pretty good pitcher, but that's it. I really think Tiedemann will be a great player, but time will tell. You look at Baltimore and it's easily to get jealous. Is Atkins getting the job done? Kirk was a 30K signing made by an area scout that had worked for the Jays for decades. Wouldn't have mattered who the GM was we would have signed Kirk. The farm system is lacking. Atkins has been given a luxury tax payroll. The IKF signing is too much. It's a waste of money. We should have moved on from him in the off season.

[max silver]

Players like Schneider drafted in the 28th round is blind luck. You're throwing darts at a dartboard that late in the draft. My concern looking at 2017 to 2020 the only player drafted or from international signings making a contribution is Manoah who most view as a back end to mid rotation starter. I think he'll bounce back and be a pretty good pitcher, but that's it. I really think Tiedemann will be a great player, but time will tell. You look at Baltimore and it's easily to get jealous. Is Atkins getting the job done? Kirk was a 30K signing made by an area scout that had worked for the Jays for decades. Wouldn't have mattered who the GM was we would have signed Kirk. The farm system is lacking. Atkins has been given a luxury tax payroll. The IKF signing is too much. It's a waste of money. We should have moved on from him in the off season.

 

It's all well and good to be jealous about Baltimore but it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison given how bad Baltimore was during their tank style rebuild. They get full credit for hitting on so many of their picks but it's impossible to ignore how much they benefited from being able to pick from the top of the draft 1st overall twice, 2nd overall once, and 5th overall in a 5 year span. This would have also given them a far higher draft budget, and as a smaller market club they also receive extra picks and budget in the competitive balance rounds. This allowed them to essentially pick 4-5 top 100 level talents in every one of those seasons. Add in the fact that they are going to be further rewarded for their tanking efforts and small market with even more potential picks for having these players succeed upon callup and they are set for a potential dynasty.

 

The amateur acquisition and development definitely experienced a lull after Bo, Vlad and Cavan emerged and that's one of the primary reasons why the system is light on impact talent in the upper levels of the minors at the moment. It's completely disingenuous to give zero credit for later round players and amateur international free agents signings and act like they don't count just because you don't care for the general manager.

 

There have been quite a few minor league players traded to supplement the major league roster from the listed draft years. That's just as valid of a use for minor league assets as playing them on your own roster, but it would definitely be preferrable if the team can start developing more of it's own home grown talent for long term sustainability. On top of that there are still players who were drafted/signed in the listed time frame that are still working their way through the system as well so the book isn't fully closed on those years at this point. Guys like Barger, Orelvis and Leo Jiminez were acquired during the years you mentioned and they are nearing readiness for their first call up. A lot of the 2020 acquisitions are still pretty young/raw as well so it simply wouldn't be realistic for some of these players to have debuted already. Dudes like Kendrys Rojas and Dasan Brown are some such players who still have a shot to at least make it to the majors at some point.

 

The 2020 draft was shortened dramatically due to the pandemic, and there were far fewer opportunities to actually lay eyes on these players before the draft. It really sucks that the team drafted a bit of a dud in Martin but at least they were able to turn him into Berrios in trade. At the same time most players lost a year due to the pandemic when no minor league games were played, so it's not overly surprising that this particular draft year and subsequent lost year slowed the development of a lot of the players in the system. This would have certainly been a factor for other teams as well so it doesn't completely excuse the relative lack of results by any means but it had to have been a factor in the lack of development for many earlier in the decade.

[Carlos Danger]

It's all well and good to be jealous about Baltimore but it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison given how bad Baltimore was during their tank style rebuild. They get full credit for hitting on so many of their picks but it's impossible to ignore how much they benefited from being able to pick from the top of the draft 1st overall twice, 2nd overall once, and 5th overall in a 5 year span. This would have also given them a far higher draft budget, and as a smaller market club they also receive extra picks and budget in the competitive balance rounds. This allowed them to essentially pick 4-5 top 100 level talents in every one of those seasons. Add in the fact that they are going to be further rewarded for their tanking efforts and small market with even more potential picks for having these players succeed upon callup and they are set for a potential dynasty.

 

The amateur acquisition and development definitely experienced a lull after Bo, Vlad and Cavan emerged and that's one of the primary reasons why the system is light on impact talent in the upper levels of the minors at the moment. It's completely disingenuous to give zero credit for later round players and amateur international free agents signings and act like they don't count just because you don't care for the general manager.

 

There have been quite a few minor league players traded to supplement the major league roster from the listed draft years. That's just as valid of a use for minor league assets as playing them on your own roster, but it would definitely be preferrable if the team can start developing more of it's own home grown talent for long term sustainability. On top of that there are still players who were drafted/signed in the listed time frame that are still working their way through the system as well so the book isn't fully closed on those years at this point. Guys like Barger, Orelvis and Leo Jiminez were acquired during the years you mentioned and they are nearing readiness for their first call up. A lot of the 2020 acquisitions are still pretty young/raw as well so it simply wouldn't be realistic for some of these players to have debuted already. Dudes like Kendrys Rojas and Dasan Brown are some such players who still have a shot to at least make it to the majors at some point.

 

The 2020 draft was shortened dramatically due to the pandemic, and there were far fewer opportunities to actually lay eyes on these players before the draft. It really sucks that the team drafted a bit of a dud in Martin but at least they were able to turn him into Berrios in trade. At the same time most players lost a year due to the pandemic when no minor league games were played, so it's not overly surprising that this particular draft year and subsequent lost year slowed the development of a lot of the players in the system. This would have certainly been a factor for other teams as well so it doesn't completely excuse the relative lack of results by any means but it had to have been a factor in the lack of development for many earlier in the decade.

 

To play Devil’s Advocate to this post. Why is the Dodger’s system so good and has been consistently good and they have not tanked or been the beneficiary of being a small market club.

[John_Havok]

To play Devil’s Advocate to this post. Why is the Dodger’s system so good and has been consistently good and they have not tanked or been the beneficiary of being a small market club.

 

Short answer is because Andrew Friedman is probably the best GM in baseball in recent memory and has the right people doing the right things in the right places.

 

But even a quick glance at their roster... 17 home grown players on the 40 man roster. Jays? 17 homegrown on the 40 man roster. I'll get a bit more deep into it in a few posts to compare the respective home grown players on each team.

[BatFlip]

Short answer is because Andrew Friedman is probably the best GM in baseball in recent memory and has the right people doing the right things in the right places.

 

But even a quick glance at their roster... 17 home grown players on the 40 man roster. Jays? 17 homegrown on the 40 man roster. I'll get a bit more deep into it in a few posts to compare the respective home grown players on each team.

 

That would be awesome.

[Marew]

Dodgers are trash. Clayton kershaw sucks and they got beat by the dbacks. We swept the dbacks.

[Carlos Danger]

Short answer is because Andrew Friedman is probably the best GM in baseball in recent memory and has the right people doing the right things in the right places.

 

But even a quick glance at their roster... 17 home grown players on the 40 man roster. Jays? 17 homegrown on the 40 man roster. I'll get a bit more deep into it in a few posts to compare the respective home grown players on each team.

 

Friedman isn't home grown, they identified, targeted and acquired. Their # 1 payer Mookie Betts (pre-Ohtani) was acquired via the use of specs. This year's mid season farm system rankings had the Dodgers 6th, the Blue Jays 26th. The Dodgers just sent specs to acquire Glasnow and they won't miss a beat in terms of the pipeline of prospects on the way.

 

Using the amount of home grown players on the roster as a comparison is not an equitable metric by which to measure sustained and future success. Assuming you are saying that the Jays and Dodgers are somewhat equal due to the amount of homegrown players.

 

The Dodgers also lost Urias a top tier SP to off field issues as they did Bauer, albeit he was a FA.

[jaysblue]

Trade for either Tommy Edman or Brendan Donovan! What would the Jays have to give up?

[deanmike]

Trade for either Tommy Edman or Brendan Donovan! What would the Jays have to give up?

 

I like the signing. Not necessarily the dollar value but he’s such a good defender at 3rd and can play SS in a pinch. Lets us move Espinal and since there aren’t any other IF on the 40 who realistically can play short it makes sense.

 

I know someone thinks Bo may be moved but the rumblings that have come my way are expect something more like Manoah, Espinal, Barger, Dahian Santos possibly more in a package for a few players with control.

 

Sorrow's package for Edman, Arenado and 1 of Liberatore/Helsley/Zack Thompson?

 

Another option is Donovan, Arenado and Dylan Carlson.