General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Brownie19]

Manoah's slider is now tied for the worst pitch in baseball. Run value of +11.

 

It's tied with David Peterson's slider and Jack Flaherty's 4 seamer

 

Barf. I'm not sure Manoah's a ML pitcher without a quality slider. It will be interesting to see if his antics and loud mouth stop now...

[Krylian]

Barf. I'm not sure Manoah's a ML pitcher without a quality slider. It will be interesting to see if his antics and loud mouth stop now...

 

How long until he's put on the IL with some kind of "injury". That's always the go to when a player is playing like s*** and there isn't an obvious reason why.

[John_Havok]

Barf. I'm not sure Manoah's a ML pitcher without a quality slider. It will be interesting to see if his antics and loud mouth stop now...

 

It's a question mark for sure. Thing is, there's like 7 guys on the roster that also throw sliders, some of them really really good ones. you'd think there would be some kind of tweak he can pick up from one of them that can help.

[Orgfiller]

Barf. I'm not sure Manoah's a ML pitcher without a quality slider. It will be interesting to see if his antics and loud mouth stop now...

 

It was a good pitch the last two seasons. His fastball/sinker are still good. I don't know if it really is the pitch clock messing with his tempo, or he's been experimenting getting different shape out of the slider to become a better pitcher earlier in the season, but he really just needs to rediscover the slider from the last couple of years and he'll be back to being a dependable arm.

[Krylian]

It was a good pitch the last two seasons. His fastball/sinker are still good. I don't know if it really is the pitch clock messing with his tempo, or he's been experimenting getting different shape out of the slider to become a better pitcher earlier in the season, but he really just needs to rediscover the slider from the last couple of years and he'll be back to being a dependable arm.

 

I really think that the clock is impacting Manoah much more than most. It really feels like he's being rushed and it's noticeable.

[TheHurl]

From today's Worry O' Meter column

 

 

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Alek Manoah – 5

To be clear, there's nothing in Manoah's numbers that suggest better days are ahead. His 4.83 ERA is ugly enough, but his 6.70 expected ERA suggests he's actually been lucky to get the results he's had. Tuesday, he gave up three earned runs in 4.2 innings of work, with four walks to just one strikeout – the fifth time he's had at least four walks this season, the same number he had all last season. Manoah's velocity is down 1.2 mph from last season and he's giving up a lot of loud contact with all of his pitches, so there really isn't even an obvious culprit there. I've seen it suggested that Manoah is struggling with the pitch clock, and that might be part of it – and that's actually an explanation I'd like to be true, because it would suggest a somewhat straightforward path to fixing him. Right now, Manoah just looks broken, and I can't tell you when he'll fix it. I do believe he will, so I'm trying to buy low, but he certainly can't be ranked as a top-25 SP right now.

[Laika]

Manoah is like... Brad Keller or Zach Davies bad.

 

Those are his new peers.

[John_Havok]

Manoah is like... Brad Keller or Zach Davies bad.

 

Those are his new peers.

 

In contrast to his s*** slider, his sinker is the 36th best pitch by run value in the majors at -6

 

4 seamer checks in a -1 (slightly above average) and the change is +2.

 

He's basically a 4 seam/sinker pitcher.

[BigCecil]

I really think that the clock is impacting Manoah much more than most. It really feels like he's being rushed and it's noticeable.

 

I think he is just overrated, overhyped and out of shape. Too many Hazel documentary episodes, not enough getting ready for the season and clock.

[Jimcanuck]

I think he is just overrated, overhyped and out of shape. Too many Hazel documentary episodes, not enough getting ready for the season and clock.

 

Wow. Quite the slam.

[Spanky99]

I think he is just overrated, overhyped and out of shape. Too many Hazel documentary episodes, not enough getting ready for the season and clock.

 

I think Krylian's right, he'd much rather be deliberate to the plate and the clock is effecting him. Kind of how the PC has effected Kooch for the better. You're being to harsh, lol. He's been brutal, though. Too many cement mixers as well.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I said already, Manoah was ranked IIRC 189th in MLB last year for all SP's in time between pitches. It was like 20.7 seconds or something.

 

He is being rushed and is not in great shape and IMO it's the biggest factor in his drop off this season.

 

And when I say "drop off" I'm someone who thinks his results were over his head last season. He was solid, but not a CY worthy type "ace" pitcher. He's a mid rotation guy at best but clearly right now he's not anywhere near his best.

 

Remember when he blew up on that analyst on twitter after the analyst criticized him for not being in the best shape? Um.....yea...

[Captain_Obvious]

Manoah has no plus pitches at this point. He also does not have good command. He is the next Ricky Romero.

 

Silver lining: Manoah will become a good example of players refusing to sign long-term extensions and having that backfire spectacularly. MLB teams might have better success locking up young pieces.

[Spanky99]

Manoah has no plus pitches at this point. He also does not have good command. He is the next Ricky Romero.

 

Silver lining: Manoah will become a good example of players refusing to sign long-term extensions and having that backfire spectacularly. MLB teams might have better success locking up young pieces.

 

Manoah had an extension offered???

[Krylian]

Manoah had an extension offered???

 

Not that I'm aware of.

[Spanky99]

Not that I'm aware of.

 

Thanks, cause that was news to me...

[Captain_Obvious]

Thanks, cause that was news to me...

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/news/blue-jays-alek-manoah-extension-talks-2023-offseason

[Spanky99]

https://www.si.com/mlb/bluejays/news/blue-jays-alek-manoah-extension-talks-2023-offseason

 

Oh yeah, I remember this now, still conjecture.

[John_Havok]

I said already, Manoah was ranked IIRC 189th in MLB last year for all SP's in time between pitches. It was like 20.7 seconds or something.

 

He is being rushed and is not in great shape and IMO it's the biggest factor in his drop off this season.

 

And when I say "drop off" I'm someone who thinks his results were over his head last season. He was solid, but not a CY worthy type "ace" pitcher. He's a mid rotation guy at best but clearly right now he's not anywhere near his best.

 

Remember when he blew up on that analyst on twitter after the analyst criticized him for not being in the best shape? Um.....yea...

 

Being slightly rushed doesn't destroy the shape and command of a pitch while the other pitchers remain the same. It's 100% mechanical and he needs to figure it out ASAP

[Jonn]

The only silver lining about Manoah's struggles is we haven't paid him yet. Obviously we don't want to give up on him but this a pretty large drop from grace.

[Krylian]

The only silver lining about Manoah's struggles is we haven't paid him yet. Obviously we don't want to give up on him but this a pretty large drop from grace.

 

Kinda like when Bautista said he was done with the hometown discounts and wanted $150M. Good thing we didn't bite there either.

[max silver]

Manoah has no plus pitches at this point. He also does not have good command. He is the next Ricky Romero.

 

Silver lining: Manoah will become a good example of players refusing to sign long-term extensions and having that backfire spectacularly. MLB teams might have better success locking up young pieces.

 

Romero had chronically bad knees which derailed his career. We can only hope something of this sort isn't behind Manoah's struggles.

[max silver]

Being slightly rushed doesn't destroy the shape and command of a pitch while the other pitchers remain the same. It's 100% mechanical and he needs to figure it out ASAP

 

Yeah I'm not buying the pitch clock theory either. You can tell right from the first few pitches of the game when Manoah is going to be struggling with his command for the game. If the pitch clock were such an issue Manoah's command would improve with runners on base, as he would gain an extra 5 seconds of time between pitches. His results get markedly worse when he has runners on base vs when the bases are empty, so the extra rest time is seemingly having no effect on improving the quality of his pitches.

 

His numbers second time through the order are actually better off than first time through the order. If he was struggling primarily because his conditioning is not allowing him to repeat his delivery/locate his pitches, you would expect that his fatigue would be accumulating as the game continues and he would perform worse over time.

[BigCecil]

Wow. Quite the slam.

 

Sorry, ya was too much I ripped on him Jim. I am frustrated by the hype, the twitter wars and the opening day assignment etc.

 

He seems like a good kid and obviously I hope he finds it for his sake and ours.

 

I'm still not buying the pitch clock thing though.

[Jimcanuck]

Sorry, ya that was too much Jim. I was frustrated by the hype, the twitter wars and the opening day assignment etc.

 

He seems like a good kid and obviously I hope he finds it for his sake and ours.

 

I'm still not buying the pitch clock thing though.

 

Something is amiss, as Spanky said yesterday. The velo drop is a concern and he's obviously labouring out there. Something's not right and he needs to go to the minors to try and sort it out under less pressure.

[John_Havok]

Jays signed RHP Wes Parsons to minor league deal. Nothing to see, returning from the KBO and pretty much sucks.

[wilko]

Romero had chronically bad knees which derailed his career. We can only hope something of this sort isn't behind Manoah's struggles.

 

I agree. Manoah can lose a few pounds for sure.

[Terminator]

Being slightly rushed doesn't destroy the shape and command of a pitch while the other pitchers remain the same. It's 100% mechanical and he needs to figure it out ASAP

 

Yeah the velo is one thing but he's lost so much break on the slider. This whole thread shows what's going on but I'm sharing the most relevant tweet.

 

 

The slider just isn't breaking. Surely this can be fixed midseason and he can be a 4.00ish ERA pitcher the rest of the way.

[TheHurl]

Yeah I'm not buying the pitch clock theory either. You can tell right from the first few pitches of the game when Manoah is going to be struggling with his command for the game. If the pitch clock were such an issue Manoah's command would improve with runners on base, as he would gain an extra 5 seconds of time between pitches. His results get markedly worse when he has runners on base vs when the bases are empty, so the extra rest time is seemingly having no effect on improving the quality of his pitches.

 

His numbers second time through the order are actually better off than first time through the order. If he was struggling primarily because his conditioning is not allowing him to repeat his delivery/locate his pitches, you would expect that his fatigue would be accumulating as the game continues and he would perform worse over time.

 

I said this last year as well. He said some things that made me believe that he doesn't believe in the mental conditioning side of the game. Bring John Lannan in for the next homestand.

[Captain_Obvious]

This was peak Manoah:

 

Unfortunately he is no longer the same. I remember this game and specifically what KK's reaction was to Manoah's sliders.