Poll: Which catcher would you move in the off-season?

[Laika]

Which type of team is targeting Kirk though?

 

I feel like old school teams won't want him and new school teams will only be heavily interested if they think they are getting a deal or scoring on some fat bias market inefficiency.

 

I feel like Jansen should be somewhat easy to trade since he's a traditional looking power catcher, well rounded.

 

Moreno everyone will want so not hard to find a dance partner but obviously hard to find appropriate value.

[Olerud363]

Who gets moved in the off season? Jansen, Kirk, or Moreno?

 

Who currently has the most trade value?

 

Kirk is where Joe Mauer was in 2005 or about where John Olerud was in 1992, or where Luis Arraez was last year. Very similar numbers to those guys, and they started winning battle titles after that.

 

How many guys get to that stage ? Early 20s. More walks than ks, line drive power but not big time power. How do they develop after that on average? Does Kirk's obesity mean that he won't develop even though he has all the indicators of a great hitter?

[Terminator]

How the hell does this poll have 28 votes and mine only has 4?

[Jimcanuck]

How the hell does this poll have 28 votes and mine only has 4?

 

Obviously Omar has more board cred.

[John_Havok]

Kirk's body issues are overblown, especially considering the fact that he will be paired with another good defensive C in either Jansen or Moreno and will DH a fair bit of the time. We have 4 years of control left on Kirk and it's through his age 24-27 seasons. He'll be fine.

 

Jansen, the guy who supposedly doesn't have body issues, has missed significant time in every season he's been a regular. He's also older than Kirk yet despite all of this no one ever considers his body breaking down like they constantly do with Kirk.

 

The obvious trade candidate is Jansen, he's older, has less control remaining and is getting more expensive year by year. Kirk matches his offensive upside for less money - but don't kid yourself on the body thing. All catcher's bodies fail eventually, and his will fail faster than most because of it. Maybe it wont happen in his first 6-7 years, but no way he makes in past 30 in MLB without significantly altering his body unless he's a bowling ball unicorn.

[bones10]

Hard to trade Kirk for me, he's arguably our best hitter with elite bat to ball profiles while playing one of the most important positions in the game. He's also stupidly young, any weight issues shouldn't catch up to him and the team until he's pending free agency.

[Terminator]

The obvious trade candidate is Jansen, he's older, has less control remaining and is getting more expensive year by year. Kirk matches his offensive upside for less money - but don't kid yourself on the body thing. All catcher's bodies fail eventually, and his will fail faster than most because of it. Maybe it wont happen in his first 6-7 years, but no way he makes in past 30 in MLB without significantly altering his body unless he's a bowling ball unicorn.

 

Seems like Catchers age the best to me. I don't have any hard data on that but there's loads of older guys that still play in the bigs. I think it's because they really don't move that much so if their foot speed starts to slow down it doesn't matter as much. Plus, Kirk is an elite framer and I don't think that skill ages. The Molinas were all fat and lasted a long time.

[wilko]

Seems like Catchers age the best to me. I don't have any hard data on that but there's loads of older guys that still play in the bigs. I think it's because they really don't move that much so if their foot speed starts to slow down it doesn't matter as much. Plus, Kirk is an elite framer and I don't think that skill ages. The Molinas were all fat and lasted a long time.

 

[jaysblue]

[John_Havok]

Seems like Catchers age the best to me. I don't have any hard data on that but there's loads of older guys that still play in the bigs. I think it's because they really don't move that much so if their foot speed starts to slow down it doesn't matter as much. Plus, Kirk is an elite framer and I don't think that skill ages. The Molinas were all fat and lasted a long time.

 

I read an article about that. Catchers age better after the age of 32 relative to other positions, but that’s largely due to the bar for catchers performances regarding offense being much lower and defense being more important. I concede that If robo umps come into play in the near future, some catchers who get massive value bumps from framing are going to find themselves unemployed sooner rather than later and the offense bar for catchers might go up.

[Jimcanuck]

No reason why more catchers can't be like Realmuto.

 

Reason for so many fat slow catchers is that's where the little league coach put the fat kid.

[Brownie19]

Catching prospects seem to 'bust' more than most positions. We have 2 proven MLB catchers in Jano and Kirk. Moreno was the #1 prospect in baseball (for a short period - err maybe still is according to some), yet it seems to me like he's a f***ton riskier than other #1 prospects in baseball like Rutschman, Franco, Vlad, Witt Jr., etc. even Corbin Carroll. I want all those players over Moreno in a heartbeat.

 

Moreno seems like a Keibert Ruiz type and I just don't think he or Ruiz will ever have the same impact at the ML level that those other #1 prospects will. If someone thinks Moreno is in that top category with other #1 prospects in baseball, then I'd listen to what they have to offer. Alek Thomas + stud young SPer would be a really solid fit IMO.

[Jimcanuck]

We might be forgetting just how damn good Moreno was before the injury. At the time, his bat was considered one of the best in all of MiLB.

 

Ruiz at 20 in AA, 100 wRC+. Moreno at 21 in AA, 192 wRC+. Moreno's bat should be assessed as >> Ruiz.

 

IMO, as he moves further from the injury, that dynamo bat makes a reappearance, probably in early 2023.

 

I too would be fine with Alek Thomas and an SP prospect for Moreno, but trading him now could end up being a major sell low whereas trading Kirk is more likely to return something close to his true value.

[Brownie19]

We might be forgetting just how damn good Moreno was before the injury. At the time, his bat was considered one of the best in all of MiLB.

 

Ruiz at 20 in AA, 100 wRC+. Moreno at 21 in AA, 192 wRC+. Moreno's bat should be assessed as >> Ruiz.

 

IMO, as he moves further from the injury, that dynamo bat makes a reappearance, probably in early 2023.

 

I too would be fine with Alek Thomas and an SP prospect for Moreno, but trading him now could end up being a major sell low whereas trading Kirk is more likely to return something close to his true value.

 

Ruiz was 100 wRC+ in AA as a 19 year old (not 20) in 415 PA's (and then yes he was just 88 wRC+ in AA as a 20 year old - which is odd). Moreno was a 192 wRC+ as a 21 year old in AA in just 145 PA's.

Ruiz was also a 145 wRC+ as a 22 year old in AAA with big time power. Moreno was 120 wRC+ in AAA as a 22 year old without a lot of power.

 

I do agree that you might get 'true' value for Kirk right now. Not everyone would give you 'true' value for Moreno given his injuries and lack of power this year.

[Laika]

Ruiz was 100 wRC+ in AA as a 19 year old (not 20) in 415 PA's (and then yes he was just 88 wRC+ in AA as a 20 year old - which is odd). Moreno was a 192 wRC+ as a 21 year old in AA in just 145 PA's.

Ruiz was also a 145 wRC+ as a 22 year old in AAA with big time power. Moreno was 120 wRC+ in AAA as a 22 year old without a lot of power.

 

I do agree that you might get 'true' value for Kirk right now. Not everyone would give you 'true' value for Moreno given his injuries and lack of power this year.

 

I see this the opposite way just because Moreno is a traditional archetype and Kirk is very much not.

 

We've seen high-end catching prospects traded a lot, historically. There is a lot of demand for them. It's a liquid asset.

 

5'6" bowling ball position players are not as liquid

[Laika]

I really think I would explore trades but Plan A would just be Moreno coming into 2023 as a competent super-sub who can play 2B/3B/LF/RF/1B/C

[Brownie19]

I really think I would explore trades but Plan A would just be Moreno coming into 2023 as a competent super-sub who can play 2B/3B/LF/RF/1B/C

 

I mean - I love that idea if you're able to land a legit starting CF, another SPer and another lockdown bullpen arm some other way. I'm just not sure we have the assets to pull that off without moving a catcher.

[Jimcanuck]

Ruiz was 100 wRC+ in AA as a 19 year old (not 20) in 415 PA's (and then yes he was just 88 wRC+ in AA as a 20 year old - which is odd). Moreno was a 192 wRC+ as a 21 year old in AA in just 145 PA's.

Ruiz was also a 145 wRC+ as a 22 year old in AAA with big time power. Moreno was 120 wRC+ in AAA as a 22 year old without a lot of power.

 

I do agree that you might get 'true' value for Kirk right now. Not everyone would give you 'true' value for Moreno given his injuries and lack of power this year.

 

I mentioned the AA numbers only, because Moreno's AAA numbers are skewed due to the hand injury.

[Terminator]

In Shi Davidi's latest piece he casually drops the Cardinals as being a potential trade partner and names Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbar is potential targets.

[John_Havok]

In Shi Davidi's latest piece he casually drops the Cardinals as being a potential trade partner and names Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbar is potential targets.

 

Any trade where there's a Nootbar involved is a win. If there's anyone there with the last name of Nougat.... slam dunk, get it done.

[wilko]

Any trade where there's a Nootbar involved is a win. If there's anyone there with the last name of Nougat.... slam dunk, get it done.

 

I always wanted the Jays to get David DeJesus.

[Brownie19]

In Shi Davidi's latest piece he casually drops the Cardinals as being a potential trade partner and names Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbar is potential targets.

 

Carlson would be a good target. I like that.

[glory]

In Shi Davidi's latest piece he casually drops the Cardinals as being a potential trade partner and names Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbar is potential targets.

 

I always viewed the Cardinals as a trade option with Molina retiring but didn't think they'd move another OF after trading Bader. One of the catchers for Carlson or Nootbar (assuming he can play CF long term, he only played their a bit in 2022) would make sense.

[Laika]

Carlson would be a good target. I like that.

 

kinda gross

[Jonn]

Cardinals have like 3 or 4 relievers that throw 100+ I will take Hellz Bellz and the reliever with the second highest K rate in that group as a good starting point.

[jaysblue]

In Shi Davidi's latest piece he casually drops the Cardinals as being a potential trade partner and names Dylan Carlson and Lars Nootbar is potential targets.

 

I'll buy a Nootbar jersey!

[jaysblue]

Carlson would be a good target. I like that.

 

Hasn't lived up to expectations since being called up, though maybe a change of scenery would help. He's still only 23. Would be willing to roll the dice on him if the Cards are selling low. Even posted 2.4 WAR this season despite putting up awful offensive numbers.

[Brownie19]

kinda gross

 

You wouldn't move 2 years of Jansen for 4 years of Carlson who's entering his age 24 season?

[Omar]

Let’s just pry Bednar out of Pittsburg. Atkins should do whatever it takes.

[Laika]

You wouldn't move 2 years of Jansen for 4 years of Carlson who's entering his age 24 season?

 

Sure but the Cards would not do that

 

They'd definitely ask for Moreno and maybe be willing to do Kirk. Gross.