Would you fire Atkins

[Olerud363]

Mods please rename this thread to “Will Ed Rogers Fire Atkins?”

 

Ed Rogers doesn't know who Atkins is. The only one he can fire is Shapiro.

 

You guys are all corporate pansies. Fire Shapiro or keep them all.

 

Better yet fire Shapiro and keep them all. They are all betas anyway, so new guy can mold them to the right formation.

[Brownie19]

I wonder if the players think "I hope we fire Atkins and/or the coaching staff, they really f***ed over our chances to win this year" and "it's the coaches faults I had the worst year of my career and severely underperformed".

[Terminator]

No way Ed Rogers is keeping the Atkins diet through Thanksgiving. The butter tarts will be too hard to resist. Atkins is out.

[Laika]

I wonder if the players think "I hope we fire Atkins and/or the coaching staff, they really f***ed over our chances to win this year" and "it's the coaches faults I had the worst year of my career and severely underperformed".

 

No, but they are probably thinking things like:

 

- man that Daulton Varsho is a nice guy and good outfielder but he's f***ing hopeless with the stick

- I can't believe that they make baseball players as dumb as Vladdy

- maybe I should call Driveline this offseason and rethink this hitting approach that Don Mattingly had us all buy into in spring

- it's going to be awkward as f*** if Manoah is still with the team in spring

[Terminator]

I wonder if the players think "I hope we fire Atkins and/or the coaching staff, they really f***ed over our chances to win this year" and "it's the coaches faults I had the worst year of my career and severely underperformed".

 

It seems like there is definitely some of that going on after the playoff game. Which is stupid because pulling Berrios isn't why Vlad got picked off of second or why the team couldn't get a big hit.

[BigCecil]

Concerning if the "under performance" of 3 overweight players and a 34 year old chandelier named Springer is where the fortunes of this team apparently rest.

 

In a season where we had 100 year event health of our pitching staff and line up. And over performance from guys like KK and Belt.

[L54]

I wonder if the players think "I hope we fire Atkins and/or the coaching staff, they really f***ed over our chances to win this year" and "it's the coaches faults I had the worst year of my career and severely underperformed".

 

Lots of players met or exceeded expectations. I wonder if they’re saying “it’s okay we all tried our best and the playoffs are mostly luck”

[Olerud363]

I wonder if the players think "I hope we fire Atkins and/or the coaching staff, they really f***ed over our chances to win this year" and "it's the coaches faults I had the worst year of my career and severely underperformed".

 

Probably actually.

 

Any sport I've ever been involved with the coach's have a god complex and some portion of athletes view coach's as the cause and solution to all their problems.

 

A couple of recent examples.

 

Hobbiest 5k running - This is a bat-s*** crazy scene with an ever growing collection of paid coaches to help you run the local turkey trot in under 20 minutes. If a guy gets 20 minutes 25 seconds blame the coach and onto the next one making promises of the elusive PB and age group medal. You go guy.

 

10 year old girls softball - our good friends have kids in this stuff, and we go to games and hang around the scene. There is surprisingly a lot of paid individual coach's on top of the team coach's and a lot of controversy's. Anyway the coach is responsible if your kid only has a .500 on base percentage (they got on base a lot, .500 isn't good) and you go to the local version of driveline for some lessons, or if you have your cash get your kid a paid softball hitting coach to help reverse the terrible batting tips the team coach gave.

 

So most of you guys have played way more baseball than I have, so you know there is a massive coaching industry that will solve all your problems and if you are an 18 year old with 85 mph max exit velocity they will fix it and get you going on the path to stardom.

 

I remember years ago reading the forward by John Olerud to Tom Robon's hititng book, it was the polite version of "that mother f***er Cito Gaston f***ed me over but Tom Robson got me back to hitting .350 with the right batting tips". To hear Cito Gaston tell the story he was only trying to help Olerud win the triple crown but Olie wouldn't listen and it wasn't until he found Jose Bautista did anyone listen to his hitting tips, but he transformed Bautista from an 11 homer hitter to 54.

 

So I think these guys figure the right coach's can help them. I think with Varsho particular they probably see a talented guy who needs the right advice to unlock his .254 average and 32 homer potential (which would make him a great, great player with his defense).

[Sorrow]

Shapiro is doing a media availability next Thursday, I can't recall him doing one. It's likely about the renovations and future work but it could also be announcing James Click as a new GM if Atkins resigns tomorrow.

[Laika]

Concerning if the "under performance" of 3 overweight players and a 34 year old chandelier named Springer is where the fortunes of this team apparently rest.

 

In a season where we had 100 year event health of our pitching staff and line up. And over performance from guys like KK and Belt.

 

Why do people keep saying the Jays had this "best possible SP health year ever, so lucky, what a waste" when:

 

- 2022's Ace fell victim to morbid obesity and went from 4+ WAR to negative WAR

- one of the AA era teams also had impeccable pitching health

- the 2023 SP roster was specifically and intentionally constructed to stay healthy! they brought in or bought specific pitchers for that reason

[Dagagad]

Yea, basically the one thing i’d give this FO an A+ for is focusing on health in pitcher signings.

 

The problem is we aren’t that smart in great division with two extremely smart teams and two rich teams that are rarely down for long. We naturally slot in to being the 5th best team once bo and vlad become expensive and we need cheap talent to still stay good.

[max silver]

Concerning if the "under performance" of 3 overweight players and a 34 year old chandelier named Springer is where the fortunes of this team apparently rest.

 

In a season where we had 100 year event health of our pitching staff and line up. And over performance from guys like KK and Belt.

 

The team had similar health in 2016 in their rotation. So this "100 year health" was more like once every decade. The lineup mostly avoided major injury for sure but were still hampered by a lot of shorter term stuff in the second half not to mention losing Jansen to end the season as well.

[L54]

SP health still unlikely to be repeated

[Terminator]

Yeah I agree but I think it has a chance to be mostly healthy again. And even so I think the rotation is fine anyway. Just run it back with the same 4 at the top and then pencil in Manoah as the #5. Tiedemann, Francis and Mitch White can be the depth. From top to bottom that's a Top 10 rotation and we've got other stuff to worry about.

 

Would I like more depth? Yes of course but it's incredibly hard to add depth starters. Almost impossible to add via free agency because pitching is so sparse that they can find a guaranteed job from someone who will pay them 10 mil. So why come here to be a 5 when you know you are competing with a former star (Manoah) and a top prospect who will be banging down the door (Tiedemann). Our best chance to add more depth will be to trade for a backend SP with options.

 

If Manoah is traded then we could then sign a #5 but what's the point? Just shuffling deck chairs and adding to the payroll.

[tazsub3]

Shapiro is doing a media availability next Thursday, I can't recall him doing one. It's likely about the renovations and future work but it could also be announcing James Click as a new GM if Atkins resigns tomorrow.

 

Means atkins is gone. will wait for thanksgiving and then announce it

[Laika]

Means atkins is gone. will wait for thanksgiving and then announce it

 

I dunno about that.

 

If Shapiro was going to axe him or ask him to commit seppuku then would he do this media bit?

[Sorrow]

I dunno about that.

 

If Shapiro was going to axe him or ask him to commit seppuku then would he do this media bit?

 

I think what may happen is Atkins is moved to another role with Click taking over as GM. Maybe Atkins moves into some role in the president of baseball operations umbrella. Who knows. I also don't think Atkins has done a bad job with building the team or org.

[Laika]

I think what may happen is Atkins is moved to another role with Click taking over as GM. Maybe Atkins moves into some role in the president of baseball operations umbrella. Who knows. I also don't think Atkins has done a bad job with building the team or org.

 

Getting moved to another role in the organization is the ultimate form of baseball front office cuckoldry.

 

Ross, go sit in the corner and watch James have a turn.

[tazsub3]

Getting moved to another role in the organization is the ultimate form of baseball front office cuckoldry.

 

Ross, go sit in the corner and watch James have a turn.

 

Agree i dont see that at all. either resign, or be fired so he get paid, but no way he stays there after what happened.

I am sure Rogers ego not enjoying being the mockery of baseball. That is why i am convinced someone is getting fired.

[Omar]

Probably actually.

 

Any sport I've ever been involved with the coach's have a god complex and some portion of athletes view coach's as the cause and solution to all their problems.

 

A couple of recent examples.

 

Hobbiest 5k running - This is a bat-s*** crazy scene with an ever growing collection of paid coaches to help you run the local turkey trot in under 20 minutes. If a guy gets 20 minutes 25 seconds blame the coach and onto the next one making promises of the elusive PB and age group medal. You go guy.

 

10 year old girls softball - our good friends have kids in this stuff, and we go to games and hang around the scene. There is surprisingly a lot of paid individual coach's on top of the team coach's and a lot of controversy's. Anyway the coach is responsible if your kid only has a .500 on base percentage (they got on base a lot, .500 isn't good) and you go to the local version of driveline for some lessons, or if you have your cash get your kid a paid softball hitting coach to help reverse the terrible batting tips the team coach gave.

 

So most of you guys have played way more baseball than I have, so you know there is a massive coaching industry that will solve all your problems and if you are an 18 year old with 85 mph max exit velocity they will fix it and get you going on the path to stardom.

 

I remember years ago reading the forward by John Olerud to Tom Robon's hititng book, it was the polite version of "that mother f***er Cito Gaston f***ed me over but Tom Robson got me back to hitting .350 with the right batting tips". To hear Cito Gaston tell the story he was only trying to help Olerud win the triple crown but Olie wouldn't listen and it wasn't until he found Jose Bautista did anyone listen to his hitting tips, but he transformed Bautista from an 11 homer hitter to 54.

 

So I think these guys figure the right coach's can help them. I think with Varsho particular they probably see a talented guy who needs the right advice to unlock his .254 average and 32 homer potential (which would make him a great, great player with his defense).

 

Olerud should stop blaming Cito for his woes. It wasn't Cito's fault that Olerud had a plate in his head with more metal than 1971 Mercury Marquis. Cito made Olerud wear that stupid batting helmet all the time to save his life and Olerud took it like a bitch too.

[BigCecil]

Why do people keep saying the Jays had this "best possible SP health year ever, so lucky, what a waste" when:

 

- 2022's Ace fell victim to morbid obesity and went from 4+ WAR to negative WAR

- one of the AA era teams also had impeccable pitching health

- the 2023 SP roster was specifically and intentionally constructed to stay healthy! they brought in or bought specific pitchers for that reason

 

We had a uniquely healthy rotation. We even got Ryu and Green back for the pen at the end. They didn't Kirby Yates.

 

Rays lost Springs, Rasmussen and McClanahan. Glasnow missed time. The Yanks rotation, aside from an insane FA signing of Rodon, was problematic. I think MIA used over 10 starters. Seattle lost Ray their #2. Bautista goes down in BAL etc etc.

 

Those teams don't specifically and internationally construct their pitching to be healthy? Thats an objective of every organization I'd bet, but there is a ton of luck involved. Credit is also due.

 

AA did had a freakish year of pitching health too. Yep. I guess its a 7 year event in Toronto

 

As for Manoah - he regressed beyond any expectation, which is a big blow. He needs to get in shape to start and hopefully he can get right.

 

Next year will be interesting. I hope they don't bank on what happened this year and we assemble depth, and Manoah returns.

[BigCecil]

The team had similar health in 2016 in their rotation. So this "100 year health" was more like once every decade. The lineup mostly avoided major injury for sure but were still hampered by a lot of shorter term stuff in the second half not to mention losing Jansen to end the season as well.

 

Max, you have to admit we got pretty lucky. Jano gets hurt every year and we traded away a pretty handy backfiill named Moreno. Think about in the context comparatively of Rays losing 3 top starters for the year, time from Glasnow and Lowe at 2B and Franco at SS.

 

You are right about 16. But those are freakish years that cant be banked on. Depth is critical. 7 year event then.

[Laika]

We had a uniquely healthy rotation. We even got Ryu and Green back for the pen at the end. They didn't Kirby Yates.

 

Rays lost Springs, Rasmussen and McClanahan. Glasnow missed time. The Yanks rotation, aside from an insane FA signing of Rodon, was problematic. I think MIA used over 10 starters. Seattle lost Ray their #2. Bautista goes down in BAL etc etc.

 

Those teams don't specifically and internationally construct their pitching to be healthy? Thats an objective of every organization I'd bet, but there is a ton of luck involved. Credit is also due.

 

AA did had a freakish year of pitching health too. Yep. I guess its a 7 year event in Toronto

 

As for Manoah - he regressed beyond any expectation, which is a big blow. He needs to get in shape to start and hopefully he can get right.

 

Next year will be interesting. I hope they don't bank on what happened this year and we assemble depth, and Manoah returns.

 

Well the Rays just throw caution to the wind on pitching. They bring in guys with nightmare mechanics. Glass cannons all around. Same could be said for some of these other teams you mentioned. Miami has a farm producing all these fireballers but those prospects have risks. Toronto intentionally acquired veterans with track records of health and clean mechanics.

 

The M's had a similar year to Toronto. For the most part they only had one rotation spot in flux. Castillo, Gilbert, and Kirby all made 30+ starts. Miller made 25 starts. The hole was Robbie Ray and Bryan Woo ended up stabilizing that. So, one major injury, much like Toronto's one "big health problem".

[Spanky99]

I dunno about that.

 

If Shapiro was going to axe him or ask him to commit seppuku then would he do this media bit?

 

Obviously not.

[tazsub3]

Obviously not.

 

except if rogers steps in and forces the firing.

If such articles keep popping he would have no choice.

 

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/what-does-rogers-think-of-his-jays

 

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/players-fume-at-front-office-in-aftermath-of-embarrassing-playoff-exit

[Dagagad]

Well the Rays just throw caution to the wind on pitching. They bring in guys with nightmare mechanics. Glass cannons all around. Same could be said for some of these other teams you mentioned. Miami has a farm producing all these fireballers but those prospects have risks. Toronto intentionally acquired veterans with track records of health and clean mechanics.

 

The M's had a similar year to Toronto. For the most part they only had one rotation spot in flux. Castillo, Gilbert, and Kirby all made 30+ starts. Miller made 25 starts. The hole was Robbie Ray and Bryan Woo ended up stabilizing that. So, one major injury, much like Toronto's one "big health problem".

 

Its intentional with the rays. Injury prone guys are easier to get and if you have enough of them, on average you’ll always have pitchers with great stuff.

[Jonn]

except if rogers steps in and forces the firing.

If such articles keep popping he would have no choice.

 

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/what-does-rogers-think-of-his-jays

 

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/players-fume-at-front-office-in-aftermath-of-embarrassing-playoff-exit

 

Nobody reads The Toronto Sun.

[tazsub3]

Nobody reads The Toronto Sun.

 

Maybe sports people dont, maybe you and I dont, but for a public company, such negative publicity is not what they want when they spend as much as they do and get nothing in return.

[Carlos Danger]

Those of you who thinks there is some Chinese wall between Shapiro and Atkins are incorrect. Shapiro needs to fire himself if he fires Atkins since Shapiro is very much involved in baseball decisions.

 

If you have a guy around just for stadium and facilities improvements you could hire a design architect and a gate revenue consultant.

[Carlos Danger]

Nobody reads The Toronto Sun.

 

Did they get rid of the Sunshine girl??

 

What do people read? That toilet paper the Toronto Star?