General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[InsideThePark]

This team is going nowhere if they don't make additions to the bullpen. Hopefully they can eventually get Berrios turned around, but another starter is almost certainly a must as planning on both Berrios and Kikuchi getting their s*** together is an awfully tall order. It would be a shame to waste this offence as it very well maybe the best lineup in baseball now that the team is clicking offensively.

 

I don't really think it's a must that both Berrios and Kikuchi get their s*** together though. 1 of them figuring it out we're still in a fine spot. Obviously it would be ideal but you don't need 5 starters in the playoffs, and we almost certainly aren't catching New York. Having someone awful blow 1 start every 5 days is something that hopefully will be addressed but we can and probably will make the playoffs in spite of that at which point it's no longer an issue. Hopefully Berrios rebounds at some point. You either replace Kikuchi somehow internally or grit your teeth and deal with it. Playoffs comes and even if Berrios is average then Manoah, Gausman, Berrios, Stripling is a very good playoff rotation. Getting a couple pen arms is way more important.

 

Obviously if if costs us a playoff spot that's a total disaster, or if neither of them can figure it out something for sure has to be done. I assume we'll have more clarity come deadline of just how much of a lead we have on Cleveland and plan accordingly, but if you're 15 games back of New York and 7 up on Cleveland upgrading the 5th starter is almost a fools errand. You're going to be a WC 98% of the time at which point your acquisition goes to the pen or isn't on the playoff roster entirely. Just upgrade the pen and stand pat elsewhere at that point

[BigCecil]

I just don't know how they're supposed to fix the bullpen mid season in a cost efficient way. They could spend assets to get a couple decent relievers and then those relievers could come in and f***ing blow chunks and start costing us games right away.

 

Brad Hand was a piece of s*** last year for us and now he has 0.7 fWAR so far this season.

 

Richards was awesome for us last year and now he's completely useless when healthy.

 

Even Cimber the FIP beater has been getting knocked around lately.

 

Kimbrel is an elite closer went from the Cubs to the White Sox and sucked balls. Now he's good again LA.

 

Going to have to get lucky for this pen to get turned around. Hopefully some solid internal options emerge.

 

Agree with this except Richards cost us Tellez and he wasn't really awesome. He was pretty good and an upgrade over Chatwood et al to be sure but during the late run he regressed overall. He gave up a particularly majestic home run to Stanton in a game I made in Tor in Sept that we had to win to make playoffs. That performance wasn't an isolated enough occurrence.

[max silver]

I don't really think it's a must that both Berrios and Kikuchi get their s*** together though. 1 of them figuring it out we're still in a fine spot. Obviously it would be ideal but you don't need 5 starters in the playoffs, and we almost certainly aren't catching New York. Having someone awful blow 1 start every 5 days is something that hopefully will be addressed but we can and probably will make the playoffs in spite of that at which point it's no longer an issue. Hopefully Berrios rebounds at some point. You either replace Kikuchi somehow internally or grit your teeth and deal with it. Playoffs comes and even if Berrios is average then Manoah, Gausman, Berrios, Stripling is a very good playoff rotation. Getting a couple pen arms is way more important.

 

Obviously if if costs us a playoff spot that's a total disaster, or if neither of them can figure it out something for sure has to be done. I assume we'll have more clarity come deadline of just how much of a lead we have on Cleveland and plan accordingly, but if you're 15 games back of New York and 7 up on Cleveland upgrading the 5th starter is almost a fools errand. You're going to be a WC 98% of the time at which point your acquisition goes to the pen or isn't on the playoff roster entirely. Just upgrade the pen and stand pat elsewhere at that point

 

Having somebody blow a start every 5 day goes further than just losing that game. Having your bullpen cover 7 or 8 innings blows up the pen and can really affect the team for the next week. We've seen recently how the blowups by Kikuchi and Berrios have overly taxed the bullpen, and as a knockoff result you end up seeing low leverage pitchers being forced into leverage situations.

[Terminator]

We will see where we are once the trade deadline hits but at that point it could very well likely be a matter of"

 

1. The Yankees have put the AL East out of reach, and

2. The Wild Card spot is basically secured

 

If that's the case, and since the optimal roster construction for the playoffs is a little bit different than the postseason, things like a depth starter, passable middle relievers or a mediocre lefty bat to play over Tapia (who has been good this month, Biggio could also be that guy) aren't as important. For the playoffs we should look to acquire an elite SP (or one better than Stripling, Berrios and Kikuchi) and a couple of hard throwing relievers. A copy of Baseball for Dummies for Montoyo would help as well. That's basically it. I suppose we could also look to get an elite left-handed bat as well and perhaps send someone like Gurriel the other way.

 

So while it seems like the regular season Blue Jays have a whole bunch of needs, the playoff Blue Jays don't really have as many.

[InsideThePark]

Having somebody blow a start every 5 day goes further than just losing that game. Having your bullpen cover 7 or 8 innings blows up the pen and can really affect the team for the next week. We've seen recently how the blowups by Kikuchi and Berrios have overly taxed the bullpen, and as a knockoff result you end up seeing low leverage pitchers being forced into leverage situations.

 

It's not 7 to 8 innings to cover absolutely every start either. Even in his horrible month he's gone 4 innings 3 of 5 times. You could also have a rotating groups of arms from Buffalo where you piggyback an AAA starter with Kikuchi to cover almost the entire game. Castillo up when Kikuchi starts, send him down then call up an arm for the next 4 days. Send them down call up Lawrence for the next Kikuchi start(due to 10 day between option demotion and recall limit you can't call up Castillo again). and him down and so on. You could also use off days to skip Kikuchi starts.

 

Obviously it's not ideal, and if he continues to be terrible you want to replace him externally. But given the spot we're in I don't think it's an absolute must, you can replace him internally or if your gap on Cleveland is big enough you can just deal with it because you're 95-98% to be a WC team regardless if the gap on Cleveland is big enough and your 5th starter isn't pitching in the playoffs anyway. Spending an asset to get a rental 5th starter is just punting off an asset to increase your playoff odds by fractions of a percent at that point

[Solaxys]

So while it seems like the regular season Blue Jays have a whole bunch of needs, the playoff Blue Jays don't really have as many.

 

Still, the problem is what do you give up for it? Do we burn the farm?

Even Jamie said it on broadcast yesterday when Joe suggested what we need moving forward (starter, couple closers): "empty the system I guess. its a lot to ask".

 

RSox, Guardians, Braves, Cardinals, Padres, Mets all are looking to add bullpen depth

Brewers, Dodgers, Twins all looking to add SP depth

Only the Yankees, Astros and Giants are happy with just a bat.

(These are just most important need; I'm sure they have additional secondary needs like RSox needing a first-base bat - so they'll def be going for Josh Bell).

 

This isn't accounting for what Rangers, Angels, White Sox, Phillies are all gonna do since they are within reach of the postseason but don't really believe in themselves yet considering the state of affairs.

 

Just a lot of competition to get elite players for three spots, especially bullpen

And if we get above average players (but not elite), then what's the point - we could end up feeling the mediocrity at the wrong time in the season or in the playoffs.

I still say make the smart moves, but not the aggressive all-in moves. Put yourself in playoff contention but don't destroy the pipeline.

[Brownie19]

It's crazy that Moreno is hitting .324, but his wRC+ is <100

[jerb]

 

Dan Shulman

@DShulman_ESPN

 

Hey everyone..I get asked nightly during #bluejays games for an update on Buck, so here's the latest. He and Arlene are thrilled to report he finished treatment yesterday! 💪 It all went as well as it possibly could and they are heading home now to begin rehab and recovery (1/2)

 

Dan Shulman

@DShulman_ESPN

 

(2/2) Buck is very hopeful he will be able to rejoin us in the booth at some point post All-Star break, as soon as he is feeling strong enough. Great news!!!

[guylaroche5]

I'm not a big Buck guy but I'm genuinely excited that he could potentially return to the booth this year.

 

Some of my favorite Jays commentary comes from drunk Buck slurring words. My personal favorite was "Breast Cecil ends the inning with a curveball"

[InsideThePark]

It's crazy that Moreno is hitting .324, but his wRC+ is <100

 

If my memory serves he's only had 1 extra base hit and that should have been a single but he surprised the outfielder and turned it into a double.

 

Back 20 years ago when average was the stat along with HR and RBI a .350 hitter was the guy. However If all you're hitting is singles you could walk 10% of the time, never strikeout and if your BABIP is league average(.300) your OPS is going to be a pretty dreadful .670. Good walk rate, incredible K rate, but if you can't hit for power you're going to be a below average hitter.

 

That's not to say Moreno will never hit for power, I'm sure it'll come, at least at a passable rate. But it gives an indication you have to have some power to be a reasonable bat these days. Concerns me more with Groshans more than Moreno.

 

Ichiro's career wRC+ was 104 and that's obviously with some power. Just a hair under .100 ISO

[G-Snarls]

A SP of value/control will cost the most. Pen arms of value and an upgrade on Tapia should cost less and can offset to a large degree the Kooch and Berrios factors. We need to pray big money and prospects signing Berrios finds it because if he doesn't it's simply a very steep hill to climb for our Jays. Without a pen remotely resembling the Braves pen and their performance in the playoffs last year we are not going anywhere.

 

You have to make the post season of course, but once you're there SP 5 doesn't exist and having a few high powered BP arms is critical

 

I would prioritize the bullpen at the trade deadline and work on getting Berrios right before trading for a SP...

[jaysblue]

Manoah, Gausman, Berrios (when right) is a strong enough rotation. Stripling as a No. 4 if necessary. You don't need a No. 5 starter or sometimes even a No. 4 depending on scheduling etc. If Berrios though doesn't correct himself, another top starter is needed.

 

If the Jays can get a bullpen arm like Andrew Miller was to Cleveland in 2016, that would be the most ideal.

[L54]

Can't wait to have Buck back. Buck and Dan are the best duo the Jays have and I really like listening to them together.

[L54]

Manoah, Gausman, Berrios (when right) is a strong enough rotation. Stripling as a No. 4 if necessary. You don't need a No. 5 starter or sometimes even a No. 4 depending on scheduling etc. If Berrios though doesn't correct himself, another top starter is needed.

 

If the Jays can get a bullpen arm like Andrew Miller was to Cleveland in 2016, that would be the most ideal.

 

The Indians paid a huge price for Miller back then. Two top 100 prospects. I would move Groshans for a reliever but probably not another top 5 prospect

[jerb]

[Laika]

On July 31, 2016, the Yankees traded Miller to the Cleveland Indians for Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield, Ben Heller and J. P. Feyereisen

 

Is Feyereisen somehow the best of those four names!?

 

Did Clint Frazier change his name to Jackson!???

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/clint-frazier/15983/stats?position=OF

[G-Snarls]

Can't wait to have Buck back. Buck and Dan are the best duo the Jays have and I really like listening to them together.

 

Same

 

Dan makes Buck better

 

Doesn't work as well with Tabby

[L54]

Same

 

Dan makes Buck better

 

Doesn't work as well with Tabby

 

Nope Tabby sucks. Nice guy I'm sure but doesn't have a lot to offer the broadcast

[jaysblue]

On July 31, 2016, the Yankees traded Miller to the Cleveland Indians for Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield, Ben Heller and J. P. Feyereisen

 

Is Feyereisen somehow the best of those four names!?

 

Did Clint Frazier change his name to Jackson!???

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/clint-frazier/15983/stats?position=OF

 

The way J. P. Feyereisen was pitching before he got hurt, possibly. Looks like he was for real. Rays found themselves a true keeper in the BP for sure!

[max silver]

Nope Tabby sucks. Nice guy I'm sure but doesn't have a lot to offer the broadcast

 

Tabby is awful but Dan Shulman has the ability to raise his broadcast partners to the point that he's only semi-terrible. When Pat is placed with Buck the two of them rely so much on tired baseball cliches that it's basically unlistenable.

[Spanky99]

 

I watch this show basically every morning(watched this this morning), DeRo could be a manager, me thinks.

 

*3-0 Fastball boom, he doesn't discriminate.* lol

[Spanky99]

On July 31, 2016, the Yankees traded Miller to the Cleveland Indians for Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield, Ben Heller and J. P. Feyereisen

 

Is Feyereisen somehow the best of those four names!?

 

Did Clint Frazier change his name to Jackson!???

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/clint-frazier/15983/stats?position=OF

 

lol... WTF?

[G-Snarls]

I watch this show basically every morning(watched this this morning), DeRo could be a manager, me thinks.

 

*3-0 Fastball boom, he doesn't discriminate.* lol

 

 

They cherry picked the stats a bit but still… Only two players in all of MLB have:

 

Slugging > 500

Contact rate 85% or higher

Chase rate 25% or less

 

1. Mookie Betts

2. Alejandro Kirk

 

Selectivity, contact and extra base power. RARE combination at this level.

[Spanky99]

They cherry picked the stats a bit but still… Only two players in all of MLB have:

 

Slugging > 500

Contact rate 85% or higher

Chase rate 25% or less

 

1. Mookie Betts

2. Alejandro Kirk

 

Selectivity, contact and extra base power. RARE combination at this level.

 

IDGT? Those are still impressive numbers, dude.

[G-Snarls]

IDGT? Those are still impressive numbers, dude.

 

VERY

 

I didn't mean to sound like I was downplaying it at all

[Spanky99]

Jays tonight...

 

 

[G-Snarls]

Jays tonight...

 

 

 

Bring out the brooms!!!

[Solaxys]

God I hope Kikuchi is not pitching tomorrow.

[G-Snarls]

God I hope Kikuchi is not pitching tomorrow.

 

Has Kikuchi to the pen been made official?

 

Edit: Maybe not, and MLB.com still shows him as tomorrow's probable starter

[Solaxys]

Hasn't Kikuchi to the pen been made official?

 

Still listed as the starter for tomorrow atm