2021/2022 Free Agency Thread

[glory]

I'd be fine with signing Matz if the deal is reasonable, but I agree that he's more of a small fish. There's going to be a borderline non tender on some team coming off a down year that the Jays could trade for like they did with Matz last season, or a pitcher looking for a pillow contract in free agency. I think I'd rather go that route for the back end of the rotation and go big on the other SP acquisition. But if Matz at ~$12m AAV doesn't prevent future moves, then it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more rotation depth. That's a big org weakness right now.

[Spanky99]

Nothing wrong with Matz @ 3/36

 

MLBTR have him at 3/27... Hah, that's too low. Although I'd take it!

[Spanky99]

I'd be fine with signing Matz if the deal is reasonable, but I agree that he's more of a small fish. There's going to be a borderline non tender on some team coming off a down year that the Jays could trade for like they did with Matz last season, or a pitcher looking for a pillow contract in free agency. I think I'd rather go that route for the back end of the rotation and go big on the other SP acquisition. But if Matz at ~$12m AAV doesn't prevent future moves, then it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more rotation depth. That's a big org weakness right now.

 

They're obviously looking bigger than Matz, this is secondary.

[WryNGinger]

Was the Jays turning around Matz and Ray's careers an outlier or is this something can reasonably be expected again given the right target?

[BigCecil]

Was the Jays turning around Matz and Ray's careers an outlier or is this something can reasonably be expected again given the right target?

 

Lots of arms in our org haven't flourished from Walker pixie dust, especially our track record in the pen.

 

We struck 1 year deal gold with Matz, Ray (and Semian). I don't know the odds but I'd bet its more likely this lightening wont strike twice in the same place with others. Ray won a Cy Young. Just an astonishing turn around.

[L54]

MLBTR have him at 3/27... Hah, that's too low. Although I'd take it!

 

Ya we all know he’s not getting 9M AAV with offers from 8 clubs. The DeSclafani contract is a good indicator of where the market for Matz is at

[L54]

Was the Jays turning around Matz and Ray's careers an outlier or is this something can reasonably be expected again given the right target?

 

Should be reasonably be expected I think.

[Jays24]

Should be reasonably be expected I think.

 

So all pitchers that fail is the fault of the pitcher (Garica/Roark/Anderson + the pen arms like Thorton) but when a pitcher has a turn around season during their contract year it's all Pete Walker. Sure sounds great to get the benefit of the doubt almost every time here lol.

 

Can we start giving credit to our hitting coach for "making" Semien too? Lol

[max silver]

So all pitchers that fail is the fault of the pitcher (Garica/Roark/Anderson + the pen arms like Thorton) but when a pitcher has a turn around season during their contract year it's all Pete Walker. Sure sounds great to get the benefit of the doubt almost every time here lol.

 

Can we start giving credit to our hitting coach for "making" Semien too? Lol

 

The pitching coaches job is to put his pupils in the best possible position to succeed. This can be through mechanical tweaks such as altering delivery, windup or release points, or can be through helping to improve pitch sequencing and selection, can be assisting psychologically, etc. The key requirement from the pitcher is that he actually needs to possess the ability to reliably retire major league hitters. Are you seriously going to argue that washed up mediocre pitchers such as Garcia, Roark and Anderson had what it takes to succeed in a major league starting rotation during their Jays tenure? No pitching coach on the planet could have turned those guys around.

[Ehjays]

The pitching coaches job is to put his pupils in the best possible position to succeed. This can be through mechanical tweaks such as altering delivery, windup or release points, or can be through helping to improve pitch sequencing and selection, can be assisting psychologically, etc. The key requirement from the pitcher is that he actually needs to possess the ability to reliably retire major league hitters. Are you seriously going to argue that washed up mediocre pitchers such as Garcia, Roark and Anderson had what it takes to succeed in a major league starting rotation during their Jays tenure? No pitching coach on the planet could have turned those guys around.

 

Exactly, and that is why I'd like to hear more that the Jays are interested in Jon Gray and not Matz. I like Matz but I thought the idea was to try to improve, I am not sure he can repeat 2021 let alone repeat it 3 times on a longer deal but having said that I have faith in our FO so we shall see.

[L54]

So all pitchers that fail is the fault of the pitcher (Garica/Roark/Anderson + the pen arms like Thorton) but when a pitcher has a turn around season during their contract year it's all Pete Walker. Sure sounds great to get the benefit of the doubt almost every time here lol.

 

Can we start giving credit to our hitting coach for "making" Semien too? Lol

 

Is your argument that improvements in player performance are based on sheer luck and has nothing to do with the organization?

[jerb]

 

Jon Heyman

@JonHeyman

 

White Sox said closing in on a deal for Kendall Graveman. $24M for 3 years range.

[Eat My Shatkins]

f***en White Sox

 

Hendriks

Kimbrel

Graveman

 

That's an expensive bullpen

 

I wonder if they look to move Kimbrel, who wasn't very effective as a set up man.

[Spanky99]

So all pitchers that fail is the fault of the pitcher (Garica/Roark/Anderson + the pen arms like Thorton) but when a pitcher has a turn around season during their contract year it's all Pete Walker. Sure sounds great to get the benefit of the doubt almost every time here lol.

 

Can we start giving credit to our hitting coach for "making" Semien too? Lol

 

Jesus, man.

[Cbert]

f***en White Sox

 

Hendriks

Kimbrel

Graveman

 

That's an expensive bullpen

 

I wonder if they look to move Kimbrel, who wasn't very effective as a set up man.

 

Could be an interesting trade target. Completely crapped the bad after moving cross town but if he pitches like he did in the first half, would be a great add.

[Jays24]

Is your argument that improvements in player performance are based on sheer luck and has nothing to do with the organization?

 

Nope, argument is that Ray himself is mostly responsible for his performance just like Semien is mostly responsible for his. Why not give our hitting coach similar credit for Semien turning it around too?

 

Of course coaches can help Improve a players performance but it's just a funny narrative to me that Pete Walker is Rumplestilskin lol.

[Jays24]

f***en White Sox

 

Hendriks

Kimbrel

Graveman

 

That's an expensive bullpen

 

I wonder if they look to move Kimbrel, who wasn't very effective as a set up man.

 

Really hoped we could land Gravemen. We need about 2 players of his calibre added to our bullpen this offseason.

[max silver]

Nope, argument is that Ray himself is mostly responsible for his performance just like Semien is mostly responsible for his. Why not give our hitting coach similar credit for Semien turning it around too?

 

Of course coaches can help Improve a players performance but it's just a funny narrative to me that Pete Walker is Rumplestilskin lol.

 

Are you this dense on purpose? The organization had a lot of pitching success stories in 2021 beyond Ray alone. Almost the entire rotation made successful adjustments under the tutelage of Walker, including Ray who redid his mechanics, Matz who tweaked his sinker release point mid season and went on a tear afterwards, Berrios who initially struggled and tweaked his delivery before an end of season run, and Stripling who completely remade his delivery early in the season and had sustained success before missing time due to injury.

 

It's not Walker alone who is responsible for the success stories, as the organization prides itself on it's collaborative nature. The analytics department, scouting department, pitching coaches and front office staff all work together in formulating plans on who to target based on potential tweaks to unlock unrealized potential. Despite this Walker is the primary guy working with these pitchers and helping them to make the necessary adjustments in order to allow them to have a chance to succeed. It's really dumb for you to assert that he shouldn't receive any credit whatsoever for the obvious success cases, especially in instances where pitchers had failed to the degree that their previous longtime organizations had completely given up on them. Ray and Matz both had some of the best seasons in their careers after having the worst seasons of their careers the season prior, and Walker and the Jays deserve a lot of credit for helping this to occur.

 

Semien had a similar offensive performance in 2019 so this wasn't completely out of the norm for him. The Jays made a calculated gamble that the 2019 version of Semien was the guy they would be bringing aboard in 2021 and were handsomely rewarded.

[L54]

Nope, argument is that Ray himself is mostly responsible for his performance just like Semien is mostly responsible for his. Why not give our hitting coach similar credit for Semien turning it around too?

 

Of course coaches can help Improve a players performance but it's just a funny narrative to me that Pete Walker is Rumplestilskin lol.

 

Please show me where I said Pete Walker was the sole reason Ray didn’t suck. I’ll wait.

[L54]

Really hoped we could land Gravemen. We need about 2 players of his calibre added to our bullpen this offseason.

 

Hopefully Pete Walker doesn’t meet them or they will turn to pumpkins

[Jays24]

Please show me where I said Pete Walker was the sole reason Ray didn’t suck. I’ll wait.

 

I didn't say you did. I was speaking more in general terms of how he has that narrative surrounding him lol.

[Spanky99]

I didn't say you did. I was speaking more in general terms of how he has that narrative surrounding him lol.

 

That's because he has the accolades of success during his tenure as an MLB coach, with former and present pitchers, it's not hard mate. What you posted initially wasn't thought out.

[L54]

I didn't say you did. I was speaking more in general terms of how he has that narrative surrounding him lol.

 

That narrative exists because he’s done it lol.

 

The Jays are good at player development. They wouldn’t still employ Pete Walker if he didn’t make them better. It’s reasonable to expect the team to identify and acquire players who they believe can outperform their projections under their leadership.

[P2F]

Matz to the Cards for 4/44

 

[Jays24]

Report: Cardinals, Matz agree to 4-year, $44M deal

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2234061

 

Wanted him back but looks like the 4th year got the deal done.

[Spanky99]

Report: Cardinals, Matz agree to 4-year, $44M deal

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2234061

 

Wanted him back but looks like the 4th year got the deal done.

 

Yup, you guys are ninja's.

[G-Snarls]

I'm fine with letting him walk for that deal

[Spanky99]

Matz to the Cards for 4/44

 

 

Sweet for Matz.

[Terminator]

Matz is solid and the AAV looks right but screw 4 years for a guy like that. He's not a ton better than the Cobb's/Kluber's/Kim's/Pineda's of the world who should command far less years on a similar AAV.

[AdamGreenwood]

Rodon is our target.