The Blue Jays acquire Jose Berrios from the Minnesota Twins

[DigitalRock]

AA apparently didn't know that.

 

Which is why he went from loved to hated lol.

[DigitalRock]

Dude, R.A Dickey was old as dirt and coming off a season where he was doing unprecedented things with the most gimmicky pitch in baseball. There was basically zero precedent to suggest that he'd be able to remain dominance as a knuckleballer, by way of the pitch itself being completely unpredictable. Furthermore, he went from a huge season in the Mets' pitcher-friendly park to trying to emulate that success in the Rogers Centre - and similarly hitter-friendly AL East parks.

 

Don't be stupid. The Dickey trade was bad from day one because we were praying for a repeat of fluke success. Jose Berrios, at 27 with multiple years of well above-average performance and obviously above-average stuff, is nothing like R.A. Dickey. In fact he might realistically not even be at his peak yet.

 

Yep, anyone comparing this to the RA trade is high as Fook.

[Brownie19]

Won't even argue that. Freaking out on a message board allows me to be sane in person. Should have seen me after we drafted Barnes over Suggs yesterday lol.

 

I'm not going to lie - I'm still shaking my head a bit, trying to tell myself to trust Masai (much the same as I am doing to day, telling myself to trust Shatkins)!!!

[Jays24]

I'm not going to lie - I'm still shaking my head a bit, trying to tell myself to trust Masai (much the same as I am doing to day, telling myself to trust Shatkins)!!!

 

Ya when those guys have built a level of trust, you do have to side with them. Ultimately after my initial freak outs, that's exactly where I landed with Barnes and will be there with Berrios. Now let's see how Barnes looks in Summer League and how Berrios looks for rest of the season.

[Slade]

Damn we gave up a lot here, still like the deal but Martin gone really sucks. They better re-sign all of Ray, Simien and Berrios when his time comes.

[Deadpool]

Yep, anyone comparing this to the RA trade is high as Fook.

 

It's an overpay in prospects for a pitcher w/o much control. It's got similarities. The return is different, obviously, but the cost isn't far off.

[Slade]

https://theathletic.com/2742134/2021/07/30/what-the-twins-are-getting-in-the-two-prospects-acquired-from-the-blue-jays-for-jose-berrios-keith-law/

 

 

The Blue Jays continued an aggressive strategy at the trade deadline, sending their first overall pick from 2020 and one of the main pieces they got for Marcus Stroman to the Twins for starter José Bérrios.

 

Bérrios has been an incredibly consistent, reliable starter since becoming a full-time big leaguer in 2017; his ERA in each of the last five seasons has been between 3.48 (this year) and 4.00 (last year), and he hasn’t missed a start. He’s a command right-hander with a three-pitch mix, nothing truly plus except for maybe his curveball (I’d call it a strong grade-55 pitch), at his best when he’s locating his fastball away from the heart of the zone. Toronto’s rotation was supposed to have Nate Pearson in it by now, but with word that the Jays are going to move Pearson to the bullpen for the rest of this year, and Alek Manoah still on the IL with a back injury, they had a clear need for a reliable starter. Bérrios gives them innings and above-average run prevention, good enough to be their No. 3.

 

The Twins get two of the Jays’ top prospects coming into 2021, Austin Martin, No. 12 on my recent ranking of the top 50 prospects in baseball, and right-hander Simeon Woods-Richardson, but both guys who have slipped a little bit in Toronto’s and the industry’s eyes. Martin was the fifth overall pick in 2020, and was atop my draft board thanks to his combination of positional versatility, athleticism, and extremely high contact rates. The Jays assigned him right to Double A this spring to start his pro career; between that and a hand injury, he got off to a slow start, but he’s been improving as the season has progressed, hitting .289/.446/.398 since June 1st, .296/.500/.352 in 18 games so far in July.

 

His approach at the plate is superb and he has great hand-eye coordination to make contact, so there’s a high floor here, with several teams showing an increased interest in high-contact hitters in the last year or so. His swing has become more inside-out this year than it was at Vanderbilt, and he’s not using his legs enough to drive the ball, which explains the low ISO and overall lack of power. He’s played shortstop and centerfield this year for New Hampshire, and played third base in college, but his throwing has been inconsistent and I think center or second base are his two most likely long-term positions. His hands were always plus at third, and second may make the best use of his skills. I see a clear regular and leadoff hitter, with more upside if the Twins can get him in his legs more, but a muted ceiling until that happens.

 

Woods-Richardson’s velocity picked up after the Mets drafted him in 2018 and made him a full-time pitcher, but it has backed up since then and he’s been more fringe-average with his fastball along with a 50/55 changeup. He’s normally a strike-thrower, although this year he’s walked 13 percent of batters he’s faced after an aggressive placement in Double A, since he had just six starts in High A to close out 2019. His breaking ball remains below average, and his arm is extremely late relative to his landing leg, which, along with some stiffness through release, limits his velocity and north-south command. I think it all points to a more probable relief future than a starting one. That’s an everyday player with strong OBP skills and a small chance for some power, and a potentially above-average reliever with a small chance to start. For a year and a half of Bérrios, that sounds about right, even if these two prospects are more famous than their skills merit right now.

[DigitalRock]

It's an overpay in prospects for a pitcher w/o much control. It's got similarities. The return is different, obviously, but the cost isn't far off.

 

Not even close, again you are ignoring a pitcher who is 27, just enterting his prime to a near 40 year old gimmick pitch pitcher..come on. Context matters. Since when do 40 year old knuckleballers improve over time, especially going from the NL to the AL East?

[KevinGregg]

I don't care much for this. And as annoying as Stroman is, him and Berrios project about the same this year. Would have probably just been smarter to keep him.

 

it's not insignificant that we didn't have to pay Stroman's big salary during the down years.

Basically they turned an expiring asset into a long term asset with more flexibility. Its incidental that they turned SWR into a similar pitcher to Stroman - they could have even traded SWR back for Stroman and it still would have been a positive sequence of moves just because they gained flexibility, retained an asset and saved money during non-competitive years

[intentional wok]

This move likely pushes Manoah to the pen, right? That's an upgrade of sorts in that department, and it seemed like they were really trying to limit his workload.

[Stangstag]

it's not insignificant that we didn't have to pay Stroman's big salary during the down years.

Basically they turned an expiring asset into a long term asset with more flexibility. Its incidental that they turned SWR into a similar pitcher to Stroman - they could have even traded SWR back for Stroman and it still would have been a positive sequence of moves just because they gained flexibility, retained an asset and saved money during non-competitive years

 

Also something to note is that Stroman was supposed to be a free agent last year but he decided to sit out the season pushing his free agency back a year. No way the Jays FO could have expected that

[AMS528]

I think it's been mentioned that Martin had a hand injury and has been adjusting hence the lower power so far this year. I don't feel great about this deal, if Martin's power creeps up even a bit, with his approach at the plate he's going to produce a lot of wins out in CF. Obviously no guarantees, but personally I think the Twins are going to wind up with a more wins from this deal than the Jays will out of this deal long term from Martin alone. And that's before adding SWR. Who maybe works out and maybe doesn't.

 

Both of those guys is tough to give up. Martin plus a lesser pitching prospect should have been enough personally.

 

And it's worse when you look at the fact that the Dodgers got Turner and Scherzer from a similar package. I don't see how this isn't an overpay when looking at that deal. Turner is better than Berrios by himself. And the Dodgers got Scherzer as well. And Turner has another controllable year like Berrios.

 

How do you get from that deal to this deal?

[Stangstag]

This move likely pushes Manoah to the pen, right? That's an upgrade of sorts in that department, and it seemed like they were really trying to limit his workload.

 

I'd rather push Matz or Strip to the pen personally

[Stangstag]

I think it's been mentioned that Martin had a hand injury and has been adjusting hence the lower power so far this year. I don't feel great about this deal, if Martin's power creeps up even a bit, with his approach at the plate he's going to produce a lot of wins out in CF. Obviously no guarantees, but personally I think the Twins are going to wind up with a more wins from this deal than the Jays will out of this deal long term from Martin alone. And that's before adding SWR. Who maybe works out and maybe doesn't.

 

Both of those guys is tough to give up. Martin plus a lesser pitching prospect should have been enough personally.

 

And it's worse when you look at the fact that the Dodgers got Turner and Scherzer from a similar package. I don't see how this isn't an overpay when looking at that deal. Turner is better than Berrios by himself. And the Dodgers got Scherzer as well. And Turner has another controllable year like Berrios.

 

How do you get from that deal to this deal?

 

Honestly the return on that deal was probably a bit lighter than what it should have been, but Scherzer kinda had them by the balls. IMO they should have traded them separately

[Jimcanuck]

I'd rather push Matz or Strip to the pen personally

 

Use Strip as swingman to manage workloads

[TBJ12]

Will enjoy watching him pitch for us that's for sure

 

Really really wish they hadn't sent Martin though damn

 

Mixed feelings big time

 

 

He was our best pick in YEARS

 

Vlad, Bo, Manoah, Moreno, Martinez? If they can ink an extension with 27 year old Berrios I’m fine with this move.

[G-Snarls]

Use Strip as swingman to manage workloads

 

Yes

 

I think Ryu should only go every 6th day

[G-Snarls]

Vlad, Bo, Manoah, Moreno, Martinez? If they can ink an extension with 27 year old Berrios I’m fine with this move.

 

Vlad was different cause international signing and not in the normal draft

 

And I mean he was our highest pick in a long time and seemed to have massive upside.

[TBJ12]

Did you miss that we just went through a pandemic? Ya think that might affect Ownership's willingness to spend?

 

Shapiro has indicated that Rogers is fine with spending money. Did you miss the Springer and Ryu deals?

[TBJ12]

Vlad was different cause international signing and not in the normal draft

 

And I mean he was our highest pick in a long time and seemed to have massive upside.

 

What’s it matter which country these guys were picked out of? Martin isn’t hitting for much power and SWR hasn’t looked great. This seemed scary at first but I’m quickly coming around to it. If they can get an extension done or make a deep playoff run next season nobody will care.

[BCZ]

A little late here but WTF is this horseshit trade... unreal

[BCZ]

This just in: The twins farm system looking really f***in good now

[Deadpool]

Shapiro has indicated that Rogers is fine with spending money. Did you miss the Springer and Ryu deals?

 

Vladdy may get the biggest contract in MLB history (until the next biggest contract in MLB history) Bo is going to get HUGE money, Ray and Barrios will both get a lot as well. "willing to spend" doesn't mean Dodgers money.

[KevinGregg]

A little late here but WTF is this horseshit trade... unreal

 

Martin has no power and can't play the infield and SWR walks too many guys and has no fastball velocity.

 

The Jays are clearly trying to sell high on these guys before their value tanks in order to add to the current team which is statistically elite and just might happen to have a fire lit underneath it for the next couple months and go on a bit of a run.

 

Berrios is a top 5-10 pitcher in every meaningful category over the last 3 years, and the plan has to be to try to resign him long term.

It makes plenty of sense.

[TBJ12]

Not a big fan of this move, but given that there's likely to be a lockout, focusing on winning this year is probably defensible given where we are in the standings. If we're doing this though, we had better add at least two really good arms in the pen.

 

All this lockout talk is nonsense. Both sides will do everything possible to avoid a lockout following the pandemic. I’ll be absolutely shocked if there isn’t baseball by April 1 2022.

[Deadpool]

Martin has no power and can't play the infield and SWR walks too many guys and has no fastball velocity.

 

The Jays are clearly trying to sell high on these guys before their value tanks in order to add to the current team which is statistically elite and just might happen to have a fire lit underneath it for the next couple months and go on a bit of a run.

 

Berrios is a top 5-10 pitcher in every meaningful category over the last 3 years, and the plan has to be to try to resign him long term.

It makes plenty of sense.

 

Always nice to hear your thoughts, Mike Wilner

[BCZ]

Martin has no power and can't play the infield and SWR walks too many guys and has no fastball velocity.

 

Martin - A lot of guys have no power coming up. That's often the last thing to develop. Make excuses all you want he's a top 10 prospect for a reason.

 

SWR - He's 20 and this is the first year he's shown control issues. Make excuses all you want he's a top 50 prospect for a reason.

 

The Jays are clearly trying to sell high on these guys before their value tanks in order to add to the current team which is statistically elite and just might happen to have a fire lit underneath it for the next couple months and go on a bit of a run.

 

That's a gamble you can say about a lot of prospects. It's still an egregiously bad trade by all standards and comps.

 

Berrios is a top 5-10 pitcher in every meaningful category over the last 3 years, and the plan has to be to try to resign him long term.

It makes plenty of sense.

 

It's basically one season of Berrios for like 12 or something years between SWR and Martin LOL. It's a f***ing joke!

[jaysguy44]

Yup, don't like this.

 

Can someone tell me why this is a good trade....?

[5minutesforframing]

Martin has no power and can't play the infield and SWR walks too many guys and has no fastball velocity.

 

The Jays are clearly trying to sell high on these guys before their value tanks in order to add to the current team which is statistically elite and just might happen to have a fire lit underneath it for the next couple months and go on a bit of a run.

 

Berrios is a top 5-10 pitcher in every meaningful category over the last 3 years, and the plan has to be to try to resign him long term.

It makes plenty of sense.

 

Lol.

[TBJ12]

Vladdy may get the biggest contract in MLB history (until the next biggest contract in MLB history) Bo is going to get HUGE money, Ray and Barrios will both get a lot as well. "willing to spend" doesn't mean Dodgers money.

 

Im sure Padres fans thought they would be spending Dodgers money 3 years ago as well. We traded a couple prospects for a TOR arm. Im not all that upset about it, extension or not this team has been improved. Seems like nobody has mentioned how legit our rotation is now.

 

I believe Rogers would push $200M for a winning team.