Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[saskjayfan]

April 16, 2022 - Tapia and his wRC+ of 37 is leadoff hitter

 

Some people like to suggest that the Jays rely heavy on analytics and Charlie doesn't really put the lineup together. Tapia has a career OBP of .283 away from Coors. I would suggest this lineup should probably put to rest the idea that Charlie isn't in control of the lineup.

[gruber92]

Some people like to suggest that the Jays rely heavy on analytics and Charlie doesn't really put the lineup together. Tapia has a career OBP of .283 away from Coors. I would suggest this lineup should probably put to rest the idea that Charlie isn't in control of the lineup.

 

Part of me believes that Atkins has to show face and hopes Tapia performs reasonably well in the lead off spot (and in general) to justify the Grichuk trade. Amother part of me believes that Chuckles is just a f***ing idiot.

[Omar]

Was wondering how man games into 2022 it would take to ressurrect this thread. I commend all of for your self control.

 

[max silver]

Part of me believes that Atkins has to show face and hopes Tapia performs reasonably well in the lead off spot (and in general) to justify the Grichuk trade. Amother part of me believes that Chuckles is just a f***ing idiot.

 

I recall an interview with Atkins where he stated that Charlie had full control over lineup decisions. Even aside from that I have an incredibly hard time that an analytically inclined team such as the Jays would be dictating lineup decisions to the manager and we would end up seeing decisions like Tapia batting 5th and in the leadoff spot.

 

I don't think Charlie likely has control over general availability as that likely falls to the high performance department. I don't have a big issue with that as they would have data that none of us would see with regards to player fatigue, and losing a player on a scheduled off day once every week or two is infinitely preferable than losing them for weeks or months at a time due to injury.

[jaysblue]

Montoyo trolling all you guys. He reads this message board and he's starting Tapia to piss everyone off haha!

[DigitalRock]

Montoyo trolling all you guys. He reads this message board and he's starting Tapia to piss everyone off haha!

 

JuniourFelix is montoyo

[Krylian]

JuniourFelix is montoyo

 

I like that you spelled junior the Canadian way.

[Dick_Pole]

Montoyo is now over .500 in his managerial career, a solid 201-200 record. 80 wins away from Jimy Williams. So there is a good chance Montoyo becomes the fourth best/most accomplished manager in franchise history behind only Cox, Gibbons and Gaston by season's end

[Grant77]

If there's a time to discuss this topic so far this season, it's most certainly tonight.

[Denali33]

If there's a time to discuss this topic so far this season, it's most certainly tonight.

 

Charlie needs to quit being a fan and be a coach.Ever heard of manufacturing a run?Guys on first and second Maybe bunt and play some small ball quit swinging for fence every at bat!!!

[Eat My Shatkins]

Oh f***....

[John_Havok]

Charlie needs to quit being a fan and be a coach.Ever heard of manufacturing a run?Guys on first and second Maybe bunt and play some small ball quit swinging for fence every at bat!!!

 

Umm….the Jays problem is not getting runners into scoring position.

[Olerud363]

Umm….the Jays problem is not getting runners into scoring position.

 

This is the dumbest thread ever. Firing Charlie will do nothing to help the problem, the terrible hitting.

 

Who cares that Charlie didn't manage a perfect game last night. The problem was far more the terrible, terrible hitting.

 

So figure out why the Jays suck at hitting and fix that. If Firing Charlie will fix that fire him. Otherwise don't.

 

It will hopefully turn around just with the passing of time, but if not where in for a long season of frustration and under-performance. Watching the Yankees win 110 legendary games, watching the Mariners squeak into the playoffs while the Jays win 83.

 

Charlie has nothing to do with it. Hitting does.

[John_Havok]

This is the dumbest thread ever. Firing Charlie will do nothing to help the problem, the terrible hitting.

 

Who cares that Charlie didn't manage a perfect game last night. The problem was far more the terrible, terrible hitting.

 

So figure out why the Jays suck at hitting and fix that. If Firing Charlie will fix that fire him. Otherwise don't.

 

It will hopefully turn around just with the passing of time, but if not where in for a long season of frustration and under-performance. Watching the Yankees win 110 legendary games, watching the Mariners squeak into the playoffs while the Jays win 83.

 

Charlie has nothing to do with it. Hitting does.

 

Right now, a big Jays problem is poor swing decisions. Can see hitters are trying do too much and trying to hit everything thrown their way. The entire lineup, outside of Springer, has Kevin Pillar syndrome.

[Olerud363]

Right now, a big Jays problem is poor swing decisions. Can see hitters are trying do too much and trying to hit everything thrown their way. The entire lineup, outside of Springer, has Kevin Pillar syndrome.

 

 

It reminds me of 2019 where pretty much everyone, Brandon Drury, Young Vlad, Grichuk, Teoscar, Bill Mickinney was under performing with bad on base percentages and yes... they all looked like Kevin Pillar... or worse.

 

Don't get me wrong, the 2019 team was terrible, but still underperformed... Drury was suppose to be a .300 opb guy not .250... Vlad was suppose to hit right away... Teoscar was lost at times.

 

Not sure the manager can do anything about that. I think it's an interesting debate. At the time I was really frustrated with Montoya because I thought that the manager sets the tone and is the boss of the hitting instructor, and should expect professional at bats and each hitter to do the best with their abilities.

 

Of course there is randomness, unknowns, inexplicable slumps and others argued the manager and hitting coach can't change things much.. however to me that's the one reason to fire the manager (and the staff)... team wide underperformance compared to expectations/past performance.

[John_Havok]

It reminds me of 2019 where pretty much everyone, Brandon Drury, Young Vlad, Grichuk, Teoscar, Bill Mickinney was under performing with bad on base percentages and yes... they all looked like Kevin Pillar... or worse.

 

Don't get me wrong, the 2019 team was terrible, but still underperformed... Drury was suppose to be a .300 opb guy not .250... Vlad was suppose to hit right away... Teoscar was lost at times.

 

Not sure the manager can do anything about that. I think it's an interesting debate. At the time I was really frustrated with Montoya because I thought that the manager sets the tone and is the boss of the hitting instructor, and should expect professional at bats and each hitter to do the best with their abilities.

 

Of course there is randomness, unknowns, inexplicable slumps and others argued the manager and hitting coach can't change things things.. however to me that's the one reason to fire the manager (and the staff)... team wide underperformance compared to expectations/past performance.

 

Yeah, the manager has not a lot to do with poor hitting by the players, but he does have the power to move a windmill like Bo out of the 2 spot at least temporarily to try and get a message through that he needs to be better. Or take him aside and try to get in his head a bit and figure out wtf the problem is. Can’t keep running a guy with Bo’s numbers in the 2 spot hitting ahead of Vlad. At this point I’d rather see Espinal hitting second and Bo hitting 6th for a day or two

[Stangstag]

Yeah, the manager has not a lot to do with poor hitting by the players, but he does have the power to move a windmill like Bo out of the 2 spot at least temporarily to try and get a message through that he needs to be better. Or take him aside and try to get in his head a bit and figure out wtf the problem is. Can’t keep running a guy with Bo’s numbers in the 2 spot hitting ahead of Vlad. At this point I’d rather see Espinal hitting second and Bo hitting 6th for a day or two

 

You’re a moron if you think Bo doesn’t already know he’s been bad. He knows what he has to fix. He’s probably more upset with himself than any of us are. Its also SSS rn, we know he’ll get better.

 

Move him from the 2nd spot until he gets better if you want sure, but there’s no need to “send a message”. Charlie has to do what he thinks is best for the team.

[Omar]

Yeah, the manager has not a lot to do with poor hitting by the players, but he does have the power to move a windmill like Bo out of the 2 spot at least temporarily to try and get a message through that he needs to be better. Or take him aside and try to get in his head a bit and figure out wtf the problem is. Can’t keep running a guy with Bo’s numbers in the 2 spot hitting ahead of Vlad. At this point I’d rather see Espinal hitting second and Bo hitting 6th for a day or two

 

I think from a coaching staff perspective they are reluctant to move Bo out of the 2 spot because it could have a big demotivating impact. Sports psychology says to always emphasize positive outcomes. Moving Bo down the order may temporarily help the team but could have the opposite effect longer term. Wait for the 200+ ab mark and reevaluate.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Omar

[Olerud363]

You’re a moron if you think Bo doesn’t already know he’s been bad. He knows what he has to fix. He’s probably more upset with himself than any of us are. Its also SSS rn, we know he’ll get better.

 

Move him from the 2nd spot until he gets better if you want sure, but there’s no need to “send a message”. Charlie has to do what he thinks is best for the team.

 

Well, we assume Bo knows he's bad but it is also up to the coaching staff to give him the right psychological and physical help to fix it.

 

Maybe Charlie's playing the bongo's at night and laughing at 'Bo being Bo' while Aarone Boone would be in the video room with the hitting coach working out drills for Bo to work on the next day, developing plans for each plate appearance and having Bo see the team sports psychologist.

 

I don't think that's the case, just saying that if you had a manager and coaching staff who weren't giving players resources for optimal performance, then that would be a scenario you'd consider replacing the coaches.

[John_Havok]

You’re a moron if you think Bo doesn’t already know he’s been bad. He knows what he has to fix. He’s probably more upset with himself than any of us are. Its also SSS rn, we know he’ll get better.

 

Move him from the 2nd spot until he gets better if you want sure, but there’s no need to “send a message”. Charlie has to do what he thinks is best for the team.

 

I'm sure Bo does know he needs to be better. That doesnt mean the Manager of the team can't talk to him and ask him what he can do to help get him get back on the right path. That's kind of his job?

 

Moron

[Stangstag]

I'm sure Bo does know he needs to be better. That doesnt mean the Manager of the team can't talk to him and ask him what he can do to help get him get back on the right path. That's kind of his job?

 

Moron

 

You think they haven’t spoken to him at all? What do you think coaches do exactly?

[John_Havok]

You think they haven’t spoken to him at all? What do you think coaches do exactly?

 

Do you even read people's posts? I said that talking to his players is his job, so how would you think I'm implying that he hasn't done so? or won't?

 

What is clear is that any conversation he has hypothetically had, hasn't yet resulted in any positive changes.

[Brownie19]

I think from a coaching staff perspective they are reluctant to move Bo out of the 2 spot because it could have z big demotivating impact. Sports psychology says to always emphasize positive outcomes. Moving Bo down the order may temporarily help the team but could have the opposite effect longer term. Wait for the 200+ ab mark and reevaluate.

 

You mean the professionals might recommend something completely different than what the average joe on a message board or the facebook comment section thinks should be done? Shocking.

[saskjayfan]

You mean the professionals might recommend something completely different than what the average joe on a message board or the facebook comment section thinks should be done? Shocking.

 

15 games into the season Bo was terrible. He was swinging at everything and not getting any good hitters counts. The last 9 or 10 games he's been a lot better. He's had bad luck, but he's getting some good counts and hitting the ball hard. There's no reason to move him off 2nd now.

 

I'm not sure why we are talking about Bo when Tapia exists for this team. Charlie's usage for Tapia and where puts him in the lineup has been terrible. He's hit 4th and now 5th again for this team tonight. Ridiculous!

[Spanky99]

15 games into the season Bo was terrible. He was swinging at everything and not getting any good hitters counts. The last 9 or 10 games he's been a lot better. He's had bad luck, but he's getting some good counts and hitting the ball hard. There's no reason to move him off 2nd now.

 

I'm not sure why we are talking about Bo when Tapia exists for this team. Charlie's usage for Tapia and where puts him in the lineup has been terrible. He's hit 4th and now 5th again for this team tonight. Ridiculous!

 

*golf claps*

[Terminator]

If Montoyo would quit moonlighting as a professional bongo player into the wee hours of the night and would read a goddamn fangraphs page once in a while maybe he’d figure out how to fill out a lineup card properly!

[Laika]

Rocket Raimel Tapia, he of the .699 OPS last year and .548 year to date, has batted:

 

1st three times

4th once

5th three times

6th four times

 

I guess him being 6th is excusable if other people are hurt or getting days off but wooooooooooooof to him hitting anywhere in the top 5. What the f*** is going on?

 

For reference here are the Blue Jays in order of wOBA as projected by The Bat X:

 

Vlad

Springer

Teo

Bo

Kirk

Chapman

Jansen

Gurriel

Biggio

Collins

Zimmer

Groshans

Otto Lopez

Espinal

ROCKET RAIMEL TAPIA

Mallex Smith

Logan Warmoth

 

Yes, he has a lower projected wOBA than Bradley Zimmer.

 

Even if you change to Steamer which likes Tapia more than the other systems, nothing really changes. He jumps like, Otto Lopez and Zimmer. He is out-projected by Tanner Morris, Samad Taylor.

[Terminator]

Rocket Raimel Tapia, he of the .699 OPS last year and .548 year to date, has batted:

 

1st three times

4th once

5th three times

6th four times

 

I guess him being 6th is excusable if other people are hurt or getting days off but wooooooooooooof to him hitting anywhere in the top 5. What the f*** is going on?

 

For reference here are the Blue Jays in order of wOBA as projected by The Bat X:

 

Vlad

Springer

Teo

Bo

Kirk

Chapman

Jansen

Gurriel

Biggio

Collins

Zimmer

Groshans

Otto Lopez

Espinal

ROCKET RAIMEL TAPIA

Mallex Smith

Logan Warmoth

 

Yes, he has a lower projected wOBA than Bradley Zimmer.

 

Even if you change to Steamer which likes Tapia more than the other systems, nothing really changes. He jumps like, Otto Lopez and Zimmer. He is out-projected by Tanner Morris, Samad Taylor.

 

I know John Gibbons used to lurk on the board (mainly to read my posts he told me) but can someone please print this out and fax it to Buntoyo! The guy is clueless.

[Terminator]

Does anyone here think Aaron Boone is dancing, playing music or otherwise partying during the season? HELL NO

 

He does what ever successful manager does. After the game ends he pours himself a glass of scotch and starts scouring over the scouting reports for the next game. Several hours later he’s usually done with the bottle of scotch and the clubhouse attendant shows up for work that day so Boone has him fire up the pitching machine so he can take some hacks in the cage. Eventually he passes out for a few hours. When he wakes up around noon he eats 4 or 5 sandwiches and starts yelling at his players. Basically, EVERYONE is READY to play.

 

Gibbons told me that every good manager basically does some variation of this. Chucky doesnt do this though because he’s just not a winner! He’d rather practice his bongos and salsa dance all night. Someone slap this guy we’ve got some games to WIN

[wilko]

Does anyone here think Aaron Boone is dancing, playing music or otherwise partying during the season? HELL NO

 

He does what ever successful manager does. After the game ends he pours himself a glass of scotch and starts scouring over the scouting reports for the next game. Several hours later he’s usually done with the bottle of scotch and the clubhouse attendant shows up for work that day so Boone has him fire up the pitching machine so he can take some hacks in the cage. Eventually he passes out for a few hours. When he wakes up around noon he eats 4 or 5 sandwiches and starts yelling at his players. Basically, EVERYONE is READY to play.

 

Gibbons told me that every good manager basically does some variation of this. Chucky doesnt do this though because he’s just not a winner! He’d rather practice his bongos and salsa dance all night. Someone slap this guy we’ve got some games to WIN

 

Gibby's got some great intel!