Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[metafour]

I don’t think anyone is expecting anything crazy, but something like record based off 2019-20 or 2018-20 rather than just 2020 record seems like a plausible scenario that Manfred could implement. In that scenario even if the Jays had the 2nd worst record in 2020, they might end up with a pick between 5-10 (haven’t looked at the records). That would also penalize the Red Sox who are clearly tanking due to injuries and Covid. Or since Manfred loves TV deals, he might implement a lottery based off 2020 record that he could air on TV. Who knows.

 

My point was, no one knows what the draft will be like, so where the Jays finish in 2020 might not matter. Although clearly losing a lot won’t hurt the draft slot. With Bo out and a truncated season, I’m fine with a tank job the rest of the way. It’s only 40 more games.

 

I get what you're saying, but the net effect isn't likely to be that drastic IMO to actually warrant worrying over it. For example, as I expect most if not the entire 2020 season to be played out, I can't imagine that 2018 records will be brought into any calculations whatsoever. If they do some combination with last year, we still picked 5th a year ago which is more likely to help us in any "combined" draft order than hurt us IMO. A combinated draft order would obviously hurt a team like the Red Sox, as you mentioned.

[max silver]

I wouldn't be surprised if Montoyo doesn't even last until the end of the season without getting fired, the Jays have a potential manager in waiting in John Schneider. Charlie has no redeeming qualities, he's horrible at managing his bullpen, has zero sense of proper in game strategy and makes baffling lineup decisions on a regular basis. His team shows zero signs of being properly prepared as well. I could give this a pass if he was showing signs of improvement, but he's no longer a rookie manager and keeps making rookie mistakes.

[Slade]

I don't think he's going anywhere. Probably at least one more full season with a normal roster to see how he actually performs.

[KevinGregg]

I don't think he's going anywhere. Probably at least one more full season with a normal roster to see how he actually performs.

 

I don't understand what you think will be substantially different about Charlie next year?

[BlueRocky]

With Bo out and a truncated season, I’m fine with a tank job the rest of the way. It’s only 40 more games.

 

Let’s be real, it’s not like they have to do it deliberately. Charlie is doing an adequate job.

[Spanky99]

The Cardinals are not going to have the same number of games played as everyone else, as one example. There might be other teams throughout the course of the season that face that issue depending on potential outbreaks, postponed games, etc. I don't think the draft order will be as cut and dry in this case, and if Manfred has the power to change it (which he does), then I wouldn't assume anything. Finishing with the 2nd worst record may not mean what we think it means. It's up to Manfred and the MLBPA.

 

MLB seems to think the Cards will get there games in...

 

[wilko]

Hell i'd even take Buck back.

 

[Slade]

Hell i'd even take Buck back.

 

No Buntoyo still better than Buck.

[BigCecil]

I don't think he's going anywhere. Probably at least one more full season with a normal roster to see how he actually performs.

 

I dont agree that he shouldnt be removed but you may be correct for reasons I can't understand or appreciate.

 

He is brutal. I don't see how a "normal roster" changes bad baseball decisions, that us blind armchair managers can see.

[Dick_Pole]

Nice, the Jays are only a couple games away from being outside the range of a bottom 10 pick. A few more games against the Orioles and top 5 will be completely out of reach.

 

There are several complete dumpster fire teams right now. Some will probably turn it around but will be replaced by others that are overperforming. You tank fappers should just concede now that the Jays are going to finish ahead of Boston, KC, Seattle, SF and Pittsburgh with a good chance that the O's, Tigers and Marlins join that group. What # pick was Mike Trout drafted at again?

[Krylian]

Nice, the Jays are only a couple games away from being outside the range of a bottom 10 pick. A few more games against the Orioles and top 5 will be completely out of reach.

 

There are several complete dumpster fire teams right now. Some will probably turn it around but will be replaced by others that are overperforming. You tank fappers should just concede now that the Jays are going to finish ahead of Boston, KC, Seattle, SF and Pittsburgh with a good chance that the O's, Tigers and Marlins join that group. What # pick was Mike Trout drafted at again?

 

25th. And that will quite likely never happen again.

[Olerud363]

Let’s be real, it’s not like they have to do it deliberately. Charlie is doing an adequate job.

 

I don't understand the focus on Montoya's inconsequential moves.

 

I looked up the win probability box score the other day, and even the worst Montoya moves don't mean much

 

The Reese Mcquire bunt Sunday moved Jays probability of winning from 70% all the way down to 70%.

 

If this went on over and over throughout the season it may cost the Jays a game or two. Or maybe it wouldn't.

 

It's all about Player development nothing else matters. Good teams are made of 5 and 6 WAR players... developing 5 or 6 WAR players is all that matters. Not Charlies stupid moves that changes the win probability from 70.38 to 70.11

[saskjayfan]

25th. And that will quite likely never happen again.

 

Betts was a 5th round pick, Degrom was a 9th round pick. You can google any draft year and high draft picks are busts. It's far from a sure thing, certainly not enough of a sure thing that I'm going to cheer for losses this year.

[saskjayfan]

I don't understand the focus on Montoya's inconsequential moves.

 

I looked up the win probability box score the other day, and even the worst Montoya moves don't mean much

 

The Reese Mcquire bunt Sunday moved Jays probability of winning from 70% all the way down to 70%.

 

If this went on over and over throughout the season it may cost the Jays a game or two. Or maybe it wouldn't.

 

It's all about Player development nothing else matters. Good teams are made of 5 and 6 WAR players... developing 5 or 6 WAR players is all that matters. Not Charlies stupid moves that changes the win probability from 70.38 to 70.11

 

He's got to be one of the cheaper managers in the game. We should probably give him a 3 year extension and save some money.

[Jonn]

August 18th: Montoyo intentionally walks Dwight Smith Jr. with 2 outs to ultimately face a better hitter. Said hitter promptly ties the game.

[Krylian]

Betts was a 5th round pick, Degrom was a 9th round pick. You can google any draft year and high draft picks are busts. It's far from a sure thing, certainly not enough of a sure thing that I'm going to cheer for losses this year.

 

I understand that. There will always be players that surprise and become stars...the point is, picking Top 5, you're quite likely to get a significant core piece...whereas, picking 25th...you'll get that core piece once every....what, 10 years? 15 years? I'd rather pick early and not have to rely on a hope and a prayer that your later pick puts it all together and overachieves immensely.

[Krylian]

Is there any chance that Monty has us all fooled and he's actually deploying a dignified tank this season?

[bronson44]

Dwight Smith f***ing Junior

It's like walking the pitcher

[RustyTrombone]

Dumbass did it again in the top of the 10th, perfect chance to pinch hit a righty for a dogshit lefty hitter but nope! Gotta stick with the pos Panik.

[Terminator]

August 18th: Montoyo intentionally walks Dwight Smith Jr. with 2 outs to ultimately face a better hitter. Said hitter promptly ties the game.

 

Lol I didn’t watch tonight but I just read the play by play.

 

It’s almost like because Montoyo doesn’t ever pinch hit before the 9th inning he doesn’t think other managers will either. He walked Smith to get to Pat Valaika in the 7th but not even the Orioles are dumb enough to let him hit.

[Olerud363]

He's got to be one of the cheaper managers in the game. We should probably give him a 3 year extension and save some money.

 

Not saying we should keep him. Just saying he (along with the coaches) should be evaluated on Player development, not whether he bunts in the 7th changing win probability from 70% to 70%.

 

This time Danny Jansen's bunt apparently moved the win probability up a bit 55% to 56%.

 

Blue Jays message board: Charlie has changed the win probability not at all with his stupid moves. I hate Charlie for making moves that don't matter.

 

Also Blue Jays message board: Nate Pearson is having a rough time. Is what it is. Good coaching wouldn't change it. There is no usage pattern, pitch selection pattern, preparation pattern that will help Nate.

 

Of course a lot of good things are happening too, Biggio, Romano, the manager and coaching staff should be evaluated on the player development picture as a while, not on moves that don't change the win probability.

[Olerud363]

I should concede that obviously the bunting won't always be successful. The bunt itself won't change win probability, but a guy might not get the bunt down, or a guy can be thrown out at another base. So in the long run Charlie will move the win probability down a bit by constantly bunting, but it's not that big of a deal.

 

The bigger issue is still the player development aspect. If he is so dumb as to make these minor, but also un-needed moves, that hurt the team a small amount, how can he be smart enough to monitor the coaches?? To monitor players health. To tweak mechanics. To understand scouting reports. To help players with their approach at the plate, pitch sequencing for pitchers.

 

I know the coaches are responsible for most of this, but the manager supervises the coaches, so that's an important aspect of his job.

[Laika]

What about the player development of not bunting?

 

I don’t want Danny Jansen to learn to bunt. I want him to learn to hit dingers late with men on base. Making a young player bunt steals a chance to learn.

[Boxcar]

What about the player development of not bunting?

 

I don’t want Danny Jansen to learn to bunt. I want him to learn to hit dingers late with men on base. Making a young player bunt steals a chance to learn.

 

The choice to bunt in that situation at home was defended, and maybe was at least somewhat arguable when you need one run. What's the justification for bunting there when you potentially need multiple runs?

[Laika]

The choice to bunt in that situation at home was defended, and maybe was at least somewhat arguable when you need one run. What's the justification for bunting there when you potentially need multiple runs?

 

Pulling up my thinking gaitor so I can be like Charlie, here is what I have:

 

1) Danny Jansen sucks and I have no faith he will get a hit or even move the runners over with an out

2) The runners are slow. I am scared of the double play so I'll bunt to avoid it.

[EZe]

Is there any chance that Monty has us all fooled and he's actually deploying a dignified tank this season?

 

It has crossed my mind a few times as I try to piece together his attributes.

[BlueRocky]

Is there any chance that Monty has us all fooled and he's actually deploying a dignified tank this season?

 

Montoyo playing 4D Chess and planning for the 2024 World Series with Austin Martin and Kumar Rocker while everyone else is playing tic-tac-toe.

[Terminator]

We’ve won 4 in a row. Back in the playoff hunt but our plans to tank are being ruined. I can’t decide if we should extend or fire Montoyo.

[dineke]

The guy bunts even with 2 strikes down 1. Just crazy but they'll probably make the playoffs and then they'll turn into a juggernaut next year when the young guys matures and he'll be here for the next 20 years...

[Brownie19]

The guy bunts even with 2 strikes down 1. Just crazy but they'll probably make the playoffs and then they'll turn into a juggernaut next year when the young guys matures and he'll be here for the next 20 years...

 

Could you imagine if he's the next Cito? Team rallies and wins the WS in spite of their s***** manager?