General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[G-Snarls]

That is such a great point. I forgot that he had knee problems. If he has played in St. Louis his whole career I wonder if he may be in the HOF.

 

Plus there were several other AL stadiums with artificial turf then. So it wasn't just at home for him either.

[Olerud363]

That is such a great point. I forgot that he had knee problems. If he has played in St. Louis his whole career I wonder if he may be in the HOF.

 

St. Louis had turf up to the late 90s. I think Ozzie Smith played his entire career on turf.

 

When did Fernandez's knee problem become really bad?? I think he missed the 96 season totally, but was healthy up to then. He was very good but never great.

 

People probably won't like that take. He was great defensively, but not historically great like Ozzie Smith.

 

He was a very good hitter for a short stop, but not nearly as good a hitter as say Alomar or Derek Jeter, or Paul Molitor... I mean he was the classic "line drive" hitter with a bit of pop, but a bit less average and less pop then the other good line drive hitters.

[Jimcanuck]

St. Louis had turf up to the late 90s. I think Ozzie Smith played his entire career on turf.

 

When did Fernandez's knee problem become really bad?? I think he missed the 96 season totally, but was healthy up to then. He was very good but never great.

 

People probably won't like that take. He was great defensively, but not historically great like Ozzie Smith.

 

He was a very good hitter for a short stop, but not nearly as good a hitter as say Alomar or Derek Jeter, or Paul Molitor... I mean he was the classic "line drive" hitter with a bit of pop, but a bit less average and less pop then the other good line drive hitters.

 

Fernandez had knee surgery at age 16 and again in 1987 a few years into his Blue Jays career. By the time he was 28 his defensive stats nosedived and cost him ~1-2 WAR a year.

[Deadpool]

Apparently the Jays won an award named for Bud Selig. Somehow it's not the "less awful compared to current standards, but still just terrible" award.

[The Iceman]

St. Louis had turf up to the late 90s. I think Ozzie Smith played his entire career on turf.

 

When did Fernandez's knee problem become really bad?? I think he missed the 96 season totally, but was healthy up to then. He was very good but never great.

 

People probably won't like that take. He was great defensively, but not historically great like Ozzie Smith.

 

He was a very good hitter for a short stop, but not nearly as good a hitter as say Alomar or Derek Jeter, or Paul Molitor... I mean he was the classic "line drive" hitter with a bit of pop, but a bit less average and less pop then the other good line drive hitters.

 

Alomar and Molitor were not SS.

 

Fernandez was a very good hitter as a SS, getting better with age. In his 37 year old aged season he had a .877 OPS with 77 to 62 K to walk ratio. He destroyed LHP for the Jays in his later years.

[G-Snarls]

At this point we almost need a separate Blue Jays 1993 general discussion thread LOL

[connorp]

At this point we almost need a separate Blue Jays 1993 general discussion thread LOL

 

And while you’re at it- “Move Kim to CF?” thread would be good

[Olerud363]

Alomar and Molitor were not SS.

 

Fernandez was a very good hitter as a SS, getting better with age. In his 37 year old aged season he had a .877 OPS with 77 to 62 K to walk ratio. He destroyed LHP for the Jays in his later years.

 

When talking hall of fame you don't just consider position. Fernandez had 43 WAR in his career. You can't say he deserved to go over a 60 WAR guy at another position, so you look at these guys together. There are multiple routes to the hall of fame, generally speaking you need 60 WAR to be considered

 

Ozzie Smith route - historic defender

Alomar/Jeter/Molitor route - average defender at premium position, great line drive hitter

Thome/Guerrero route - great hitting slugger, little D

 

If you want to compare him to short stops though

 

Jeter - much better hitter

Larkin - better hitter, just as good defensively

Ripken - better hitter, better defensively

Ozzie Smith - historic defensively

 

It works out that Fernandez is behind all these guys. Great player, but not quite hall of fame.

 

I can't remember the details of the knee injury, I do remember him getting hit in the face and the announcers thinking he was seriously injured... came back in 3 weeks but wasn't quite the same I don't think.

[Brownie19]

There are multiple routes to the hall of fame, generally speaking you need 60 WAR to be considered

 

[connorp]

Yeah that’s why I knocked the Veterans committee before. I never take the time to look into the players from different eras they let in but guys I can think of recently- Morris, Baines, Lee Smith (he’s a bit more acceptable than the other 2 but hardly a must have)... I just think if the writers didn’t find them elite enough to make it in the normal way, they shouldn’t go in.

 

I guess Trammell would be considered as deserving but if that means it opens a door for Baines and Morris type guys, I’m not a fan

[connorp]

I do see Morris got to 55 WAR. Pretty meh overall stats besides being a workhorse but could see argument for him going in... I just think it should be an elite threshold just above that though

 

There’s always going to be dudes that are somewhat deserving that get 60% of the votes or whatever.

[Grant77]

Yeah that’s why I knocked the Veterans committee before. I never take the time to look into the players from different eras they let in but guys I can think of recently- Morris, Baines, Lee Smith (he’s a bit more acceptable than the other 2 but hardly a must have)... I just think if the writers didn’t find them elite enough to make it in the normal way, they shouldn’t go in.

 

I guess Trammell would be considered as deserving but if that means it opens a door for Baines and Morris type guys, I’m not a fan

 

There's an equally long list of players that are more than deserving and were ignored by the writers, but no so much recently. I agree with purpose of the VC, to induct players that slipped through the cracks, but they induct too many players.

[connorp]

There's an equally long list of players that are more than deserving and were ignored by the writers, but no so much recently. I agree with purpose of the VC, to induct players that slipped through the cracks, but they induct too many players.

 

I can respect that. I’m sure you’re prob right about guys that slipped through the cracks. We all prob agree Baines is a big reach but even Morris, his career ERA+ was 105, never won a CY young, handful of AS nods. Definitely won some big games and accrued respectable counting stats and that got him legit consideration from bbwaa but in the end he fell short of the cut. I just support that first instinct

[Olerud363]

An interesting discussion is who had hall of fame talent and could of made the hall of fame in an alternate Universe?

 

Take Tony Fernandez. He wasn't quite there but at age 37 he developed into a patient .320 hitter with a .420 on base... was it just fluke or did he learn something and could that lesson of been learned 15 years earlier?

 

Jesse Barfield - done at 31 when Joe Carter was just beginning his 7 year Blue Jays run (they are the same age). Was Barfield really done? Why did he peak at 26? Turf injury? In another world could he of had the longevity of Carter?

[Orgfiller]

An interesting discussion is who had hall of fame talent and could of made the hall of fame in an alternate Universe?

 

Take Tony Fernandez. He wasn't quite there but at age 37 he developed into a patient .320 hitter with a .420 on base... was it just fluke or did he learn something and could that lesson of been learned 15 years earlier?

 

Jesse Barfield - done at 31 when Joe Carter was just beginning his 7 year Blue Jays run (they are the same age). Was Barfield really done? Why did he peak at 26? Turf injury? In another world could he of had the longevity of Carter?

 

Jose Bautista and Josh Donaldson seem like obvious recent examples. If either of them fix their swing much earlier in their careers either would have been on Hall of Fame trajectories. In Bautista's case obviously him coming to the Blue Jays is what did that for him but in an alternate universe Cito and Murphy were coaches on the Pirates at the beginning of his career and he has 30+ more WAR by the time he retires. deGrom might be another although if he secures another Cy Young and continues to be good into the back half of his career he could still be enshrined. Donaldson also has an off-chance if he avoids injuries and manages to average 4 WAR through the end of his Twins contract.

[Carlos Danger]

So today I signed my 5 yr old up for the Tommy Hutton Baseball Camp.. It was like $270 for 4 days the week after Christmas. It is 9-3 pm everyday and they work on all the fundamentals. The reason this particular session caught my eye is because each session they have a guest MLB instructor. Next week for my kid's session it is MLB Coach Schneider, this week it is Brad Wilkerson. It was late at night and I assumed it was the Jays bench coach and former New Hampshire Manager John Schneider.

 

My plan was to invite John out for drinks after one of the sessions, get him drunk and pump him for inside info on Blue Jay's offseason targets, plans...

 

Well, when I actually sat down and took a look, after I had already paid, it is actually Brian Schneider, not John. Brian, former player with the Expos/Nationals, Mets, Phillies and coach for Marlins and the current QC coach for the Mets..

 

Maybe I can get HIM drunk and find out the Met's plans, since they are our main competition for a few guys.. LOL... Regardless, it should be a good level of instruction for a 5 yr old..

[King]

So today I signed my 5 yr old up for the Tommy Hutton Baseball Camp.. It was like $270 for 4 days the week after Christmas. It is 9-3 pm everyday and they work on all the fundamentals. The reason this particular session caught my eye is because each session they have a guest MLB instructor. Next week for my kid's session it is MLB Coach Schneider, this week it is Brad Wilkerson. It was late at night and I assumed it was the Jays bench coach and former New Hampshire Manager John Schneider.

 

My plan was to invite John out for drinks after one of the sessions, get him drunk and pump him for inside info on Blue Jay's offseason targets, plans...

 

Well, when I actually sat down and took a look, after I had already paid, it is actually Brian Schneider, not John. Brian, former player with the Expos/Nationals, Mets, Phillies and coach for Marlins and the current QC coach for the Mets..

 

Maybe I can get HIM drunk and find out the Met's plans, since they are our main competition for a few guys.. LOL... Regardless, it should be a good level of instruction for a 5 yr old..

 

Please seek help.

[Carlos Danger]

Please seek help.

 

They have programs for teens also... Try one, it looks like fun!

[Spanky__99]

So today I signed my 5 yr old up for the Tommy Hutton Baseball Camp.. It was like $270 for 4 days the week after Christmas. It is 9-3 pm everyday and they work on all the fundamentals. The reason this particular session caught my eye is because each session they have a guest MLB instructor. Next week for my kid's session it is MLB Coach Schneider, this week it is Brad Wilkerson. It was late at night and I assumed it was the Jays bench coach and former New Hampshire Manager John Schneider.

 

My plan was to invite John out for drinks after one of the sessions, get him drunk and pump him for inside info on Blue Jay's offseason targets, plans...

 

Well, when I actually sat down and took a look, after I had already paid, it is actually Brian Schneider, not John. Brian, former player with the Expos/Nationals, Mets, Phillies and coach for Marlins and the current QC coach for the Mets..

 

Maybe I can get HIM drunk and find out the Met's plans, since they are our main competition for a few guys.. LOL... Regardless, it should be a good level of instruction for a 5 yr old..

 

Not sure about all that other ********, but camps like those are great. I hope your kid enjoy's going to them, I always did.

[Carlos Danger]

Not sure about all that other ********, but camps like those are great. I hope your kid enjoy's going to them, I always did.

 

I thought it was obvious to everyone except I guess King, that the parts about getting the coaches drunk was sarcasm.. Hence the LOL to help.

 

The rest of it is absolutely true and I think 6 hrs of high level instruction for 4 days in a row for a 5 year old is worth it. He will either develop a good foundation and base at this age or bad habits, both of which will stay with him as he progresses. That and to keep him active over Christmas break are two good reasons for me to send him.

[King]

I thought it was obvious to everyone except I guess King, that the parts about getting the coaches drunk was sarcasm.. Hence the LOL to help.

 

The rest of it is absolutely true and I think 6 hrs of high level instruction for 4 days in a row for a 5 year old is worth it. He will either develop a good foundation and base at this age or bad habits, both of which will stay with him as he progresses. That and to keep him active over Christmas break are two good reasons for me to send him.

 

No.

[keggy]

I do see Morris got to 55 WAR. Pretty meh overall stats besides being a workhorse but could see argument for him going in... I just think it should be an elite threshold just above that though

 

There’s always going to be dudes that are somewhat deserving that get 60% of the votes or whatever.

 

The inaccuracies with WAR accumulate over the course of a career, especially for pitchers.

 

Jack Morris was a league average pitcher over a very large number of career innings. This is a very valuable pitcher but he doesn't deserve to be discussed for the Hall of Fame.

 

The bigger problem is that pitcher WAR is broken for career comparisons. Morris has a similar career WAR as Jim Palmer, who was a >90% first ballot Hall of Famer and was like 20% better at run prevention over a similar number of innings. Andy Pettitte has a higher career WAR than Tom Glavine despite being worse at run prevention with > 1000 fewer career innings.

[Laika]

I thought it was obvious to everyone except I guess King, that the parts about getting the coaches drunk was sarcasm.. Hence the LOL to help.

 

The rest of it is absolutely true and I think 6 hrs of high level instruction for 4 days in a row for a 5 year old is worth it. He will either develop a good foundation and base at this age or bad habits, both of which will stay with him as he progresses. That and to keep him active over Christmas break are two good reasons for me to send him.

 

What the f*** are ex pros going to teach a FIVE year old? lol. Five. Like five years? Five years old? Kindergarten?

[Deadpool]

What the f*** are ex pros going to teach a FIVE year old? lol. Five. Like five years? Five years old? Kindergarten?

 

It's never too early to work on launch angle...

[Laika]

It's never too early to work on launch angle...

 

No no no, groundballs up the middle are what make money in mosquito baseball

[Carlos Danger]

What the f*** are ex pros going to teach a FIVE year old? lol. Five. Like five years? Five years old? Kindergarten?

 

Don't be so obtuse. I live in South Florida. My son is 5 and 1/2. By this time a kid is this age, he or she has played probably four seasons (2x yr) of baseball. It is coach pitch and not T-ball. Every week baseball is 3-4 times a week. Two games and one or two practices a week. Each kid has their own custom to their height, weights, strength, bat and helmet. Not shared team bats. We also practice a few times a week in the back yard.

 

Kids can hit fly balls into the OF. Kids can catch pop-ups, they know how to get a force at 2nd or 3rd, hit the cut off man, and how to go from fielding position to foot on the bag at 1b and lean out for the throw. They know to have an eye and not swing at pitches they can't hit. They each have their own batting stance that is refined by where their weight transfer, elbow, arms and hand positions, direction their foot is stepping, swing plane etc.

 

This is the development stage, hockey, baseball, whatever, this is the age the fundamentals need to be imparted and bad habits eliminated. My son started off with a really nice swing plane.. Then he started golfing and Kng a lot... We put a chair on home plate to keep his swing plane up during our practices..

 

My son has been working on his transition from getting in front of the ball, block with the body, Alligator mouth closes, step and aim for my the head and throw. He is going through the numbers in his head/physically and takes too long on transition.

 

There is a Venezuelan kid on my son's team and at my son's school, named Jose that is going to be an fnn star. He looks like a pro with his stance and jacks the ball into the gaps and shallow OF every single time AB and if he doesn't, he gets pissed!!

 

I do not recall and nor am I in tune with the best practices and drills and equipment for fundamentals and teaching practice for kids. Kids start playing travel ball at 6 in Florida and you have to be good enough to make the travel team.

 

Lastly, and probably most important, something you will realize when your kid is older. Kids don't want to listen to their parents after a while and kids look up to pro athletes etc. The camp is for kids age 5-13 and obviously the instruction and level is tailored to the age group and level. However, even if it is basic instruction for a 5 yr old, when it comes from someone else the kids think is cool, vice their parents who they get bored with after 5 minutes, it sinks in much more and kids generally have longer attention spans.

 

I made a happy benign post just to share with the board with with some sarcasm thrown in, on this dead and dying message board. The only responses are ignorant, obtuse and derogatory... If this board was a business it would have been bankrupt years ago for lack of customers due to the attitudes towards regular posters on this board. It is any wonder there is no growth and activity on this board.

 

Merry Christmas Ebenezer!

[Orgfiller]

The inaccuracies with WAR accumulate over the course of a career, especially for pitchers.

 

Jack Morris was a league average pitcher over a very large number of career innings. This is a very valuable pitcher but he doesn't deserve to be discussed for the Hall of Fame.

 

The bigger problem is that pitcher WAR is broken for career comparisons. Morris has a similar career WAR as Jim Palmer, who was a >90% first ballot Hall of Famer and was like 20% better at run prevention over a similar number of innings. Andy Pettitte has a higher career WAR than Tom Glavine despite being worse at run prevention with > 1000 fewer career innings.

 

I think your bigger issue is FIP vs ERA/RA based WAR for pitchers like Jim Palmer who proved an unprecedented ability to beat his DIPS significantly over an entire career be it through elite contact management, running game prevention, or other measures that were hard to measure at the time (and still are largely unclear now how much is skill based). Glavine is another one when compared to someone like Pettite who had much smaller difference between his career ERA and FIP.

 

Guys like Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens for instance have FIP and ERA within .03 runs of one another so their WAR differences whether looking at FIP or RA9 is less pronounced, where the only difference comes from the years in which one was better than the other when compared to league average.

 

I disagree that WAR is broken for career comparisons, it's pretty much the best thing we can use as it stands, since it tells us how valuable a player was compared to his peers during the era in which they played. It's obviously not anywhere near a perfect comparison as important factors will be missed, but otherwise stuff like park factors, quality of competition, run environments will be missed and those are certainly more valuable than sometimes subjective measures of awards won which are voted on by people who may not know the sport very well.

[Brownie19]

No.

 

I mean first and foremost, the objective of the camp has to be for the kids to have fun, enjoy baseball and make some friends. That said, baseball is a difficult sport for kids and learning the fundamentals (in a fun way) for younger kids (5 through 7) isn't insane. I've been coaching kids from about age 4 to age 10 now over the past 5 years and it's alarming how quickly they develop bad fundamentals and mechanics that become very difficult to correct. When coaching 8 and 9 year old kids, you spend most of practice trying to correct bad habits they developed when they were 5 through 7. And guess what - kids with bad fundamentals typically don't have success, which leads to less enjoyment and them ultimately quitting.

 

Do you need ex. professionals to do this? Obviously not, but I think that just adds to the fun part for kids. It can be special to know you're at a camp with guys who played or coached at the MLB level. If you want to argue it's nuts to spend that much on your 5 year old - be my guest, but if you have the extra cash and think your kid will have fun, I won't judge.

[G-Snarls]

No no no, groundballs up the middle are what make money in mosquito baseball

 

I both played and coached

 

At that level pretty much any ball in play clears the bases

[connorp]

What the f*** are ex pros going to teach a FIVE year old? lol. Five. Like five years? Five years old? Kindergarten?

 

It’s deemed normal for them to switch genders at that point so they can prob handle some complex baseball stuff

 

Jokes aside, that is an age you aren’t teaching much to. My favorite age group was like 8u-10u where they start taking the games serious but they’re still little guys << that’s meant more for Carlos. Enjoy man. Good times