Happ traded to NYY for Brandon Drury and Billy McKinney

[43211234]

Solarte was a bum so any return is a win. The Happ deal was a roll of the dice that didn't pan out for the Jays.

 

That's who the Blue Jays GAVE UP for Solarte lol

 

Still not a big loss I don't think. Olivares probably projects as a Billy McKinney, or a bit lesser.

[Stangstag]

And the Yankees went a plucked Urshela from us and he turned into a better than either Drury or McKinney. Infruriating

 

Idk why people keep acting like we let Urshela “slip through our hands” or something like that. He had a good 450 plate appearances for the Indians over 2 seasons before becoming a Blue Jay and his offensive numbers were absolute dogshit. He was always considered a glove-first guy and he showed absolutely 0 promise with the bat.

 

A lot of useless players end up playing well for the Yankees for a couple seasons for whatever reason, Urshela is just the most recent case. Wouldn’t be surprised if he settles in as a 80 wRC+ player by 2022.

[43211234]

Idk why people keep acting like we let Urshela “slip through our hands” or something like that. He had a good 450 plate appearances for the Indians over 2 seasons before becoming a Blue Jay and his offensive numbers were absolute dogshit. He was always considered a glove-first guy and he showed absolutely 0 promise with the bat.

 

A lot of useless players end up playing well for the Yankees for a couple seasons for whatever reason, Urshela is just the most recent case. Wouldn’t be surprised if he settles in as a 80 wRC+ player by 2022.

 

I'd be surprised. Just comparing this season to last, he's walking more, striking out less, hitting the ball harder and for more power. Seems legit.

 

He's also 6'0" and 220 pounds, so it's not like he's some Santiago Espinal type twink!

[Ray]

And the Yankees went a plucked Urshela from us and he turned into a better than either Drury or McKinney. Infruriating

 

This speaks more to Yankees coaching more than anything. Marcus Thames has really helped players like Didi, Hicks, Tauchman, LeMahieu, Urshela blossom.

[Boxcar]

Drury DFA'd, McKinney claimed by the Brewers. Pretty much puts a bow on this trade.

 

Probably one of the more glaringly bad trades during Shapiro/Atkin's tenure, but even great front offices make mishaps all the time. They've still made a lot more good trades than bad. The same processes and methods of evaluation landed us Teoscar Hernandez, Thomas Hatch, Derek Fisher, Randal Grichuk, Santiago Espinal for practically nothing, and all of them are contributing to this winning team. Not to mention, in retrospect, they really seemed to have knocked the Stroman and Donaldson trades out of the park.

 

In fact, the only two trades I would categorize as absolute losses would be

 

Solarte for Edward Olivares

Happ for Drury/McKinney.

 

It wasn't a bad trade. It would be a bad trade if we missed out on value. Happ kinda sucks, and our return was nothing. Oh well, we weren't getting anything better.

 

This was a meh trade. Just like Diaz for Thornton was a meh trade. Basically zero impact either way.

[Ray]

It wasn't a bad trade. It would be a bad trade if we missed out on value. Happ kinda sucks, and our return was nothing. Oh well, we weren't getting anything better.

 

This was a meh trade. Just like Diaz for Thornton was a meh trade. Basically zero impact either way.

 

This front office was able to convert half a season of 6 ERA Francisco Liriano into Teoscar Hernandez. Happ in a vacuum wasn't that valuable, but he was still the top pitcher available at that deadline and held more value than a lot of assets this front office traded in which they actually got something of value back. I'm not arguing against the process of the trade, just that it turned out to be a disappointment for us from in outcome. Especially when you take into consideration this front office's affinity to turn players with seemingly negative or zero value into prospects/players that are interesting.

 

They probably valued Drury quite highly, and he had a lot of control. Perhaps they thought he could become at least a league average 3B with the potential to be more productive.

[Boxcar]

This front office was able to convert half a season of 6 ERA Francisco Liriano into Teoscar Hernandez. Happ in a vacuum wasn't that valuable, but he was still the top pitcher available at that deadline and held more value than a lot of assets this front office traded in which they actually got something of value back. I'm not arguing against the process of the trade, just that it turned out to be a disappointment for us from in outcome. Especially when you take into consideration this front office's affinity to turn players with seemingly negative or zero value into prospects/players that are interesting.

 

They probably valued Drury quite highly, and he had a lot of control. Perhaps they thought he could become at least a league average 3B with the potential to be more productive.

 

Drury was probably a Carson Cistulli guy from back with the Braves, I know he was a bit of a sleeper in regards to fantasy potential and even while he sucked at hitting here, he was still really good with the glove. It wasn't hard to imagine a scenario where Drury turned out to be a league average bat with an excellent glove. Just too bad it didn't work out.

 

But yeah, you're right. It's a bit of a disappointment, but I think you have to bake to possibility of results like this into any trade and we've just been fortunate to avoid them more often than not.

[Key22]

The Happ trade hurts more because the Jays have helped the Yankees and not helped themselves so aiding a division rival and getting zero return isn't the best of moves. But this may have been the best offer the Jays has at the time and he was a rental. Happ was pitching rather poorly at the time of the trade. Not Robbie Ray bad but bad nevertheless. I guess we'll see what we gave up for Ray.

[Krylian]

The Happ trade hurts more because the Jays have helped the Yankees and not helped themselves so aiding a division rival and getting zero return isn't the best of moves. But this may have been the best offer the Jays has at the time and he was a rental. Happ was pitching rather poorly at the time of the trade. Not Robbie Ray bad but bad nevertheless. I guess we'll see what we gave up for Ray.

 

I wouldn't worry about Travis Bergen being something we regret moving.

[EastCoaster]

Idk why people keep acting like we let Urshela “slip through our hands” or something like that. He had a good 450 plate appearances for the Indians over 2 seasons before becoming a Blue Jay and his offensive numbers were absolute dogshit. He was always considered a glove-first guy and he showed absolutely 0 promise with the bat.

 

A lot of useless players end up playing well for the Yankees for a couple seasons for whatever reason, Urshela is just the most recent case. Wouldn’t be surprised if he settles in as a 80 wRC+ player by 2022.

 

It take at least 1000 AB before anyone can really judge what kind of offensive capabilities a player has and 450 AB that relates to about 150 games in 2 years. Urshela was used sparingly in Cleveland and Toronto with hardly any consecutive AB how can anybody evaluate a player with such small sample. Nobody knew what he was capable of doing because he was on the bench only when the Yankees traded for him because of injuries that he was given an opportunity to play everyday and to much surprise he turned out to be an excellent 3rd baseman that it force the Yankees to move Andujar. I bet the Yankees wouldn't trade Gio Urshela now for $25,000 cash.

[Laika]

It take at least 1000 AB before anyone can really judge what kind of offensive capabilities a player has and 450 AB that relates to about 150 games in 2 years. Urshela was used sparingly in Cleveland and Toronto with hardly any consecutive AB how can anybody evaluate a player with such small sample. Nobody knew what he was capable of doing because he was on the bench only when the Yankees traded for him because of injuries that he was given an opportunity to play everyday and to much surprise he turned out to be an excellent 3rd baseman that it force the Yankees to move Andujar. I bet the Yankees wouldn't trade Gio Urshela now for $25,000 cash.

 

It's not possible to give every fringe player 1000 plate appearances.

 

Do you think they should make Derek Fisher a starting OF next year and not give up on him until he fails through 1000 PA?

Should they have done the same thing with Billy McKinney?

Do you think they gave up on Anthony Alford 925 PAs too soon?

 

Plate appearances are not unlimited!

[glory]

Urshela probably doesn't develop into what he is in any other org. Complaining about losing him is pointless.

[EastCoaster]

It's not possible to give every fringe player 1000 plate appearances.

 

Do you think they should make Derek Fisher a starting OF next year and not give up on him until he fails through 1000 PA?

Should they have done the same thing with Billy McKinney?

Do you think they gave up on Anthony Alford 925 PAs too soon?

 

Plate appearances are not unlimited!

 

Then why bother to trade for the guy for cash and a PTNL and play him a total of 18 games then sell him for $25,000 what are the Blue Jays becoming the pawn shop of the MLB.

 

I still question the talent evaluators of this organization you can't tell me that one guy is considered bogus and then traded he become magically transformed info a star player. Yeah Phil Plantier changed his stance at the plate but hitting 315 for a season is no fluke there's some serious natural ability being showcased.

 

The Blue Jays had Vlad Jr playing 3rd base while all other scouts where saying he's a first baseman from day one now where is playing today. If they played their cards right he would of transition in the minors to first base and should've had Smoak mentor him instead of Tellez last year.

[Olerud363]

Then why bother to trade for the guy for cash and a PTNL and play him a total of 18 games then sell him for $25,000 what are the Blue Jays becoming the pawn shop of the MLB.

 

I still question the talent evaluators of this organization you can't tell me that one guy is considered bogus and then traded he become magically transformed info a star player. Yeah Phil Plantier changed his stance at the plate but hitting 315 for a season is no fluke there's some serious natural ability being showcased.

 

The Blue Jays had Vlad Jr playing 3rd base while all other scouts where saying he's a first baseman from day one now where is playing today. If they played their cards right he would of transition in the minors to first base and should've had Smoak mentor him instead of Tellez last year.

 

Scouts can't really predict with certainty so and so won't play such and such a position and they know it.

 

The algorithm has always been play a guy at the tougher position for as long as possible.

 

The version of Vlad that is a rock solid 230 pound lightning cat that hit that spring training home run in Montreal would of been passable at third. When he showed up stay puft style for the second time at summer camp he made the decision for them. But it's pretty common to play a guy at the tougher position as long as possible. They did the same thing with Lourdes.

[Laika]

Then why bother to trade for the guy for cash and a PTNL and play him a total of 18 games then sell him for $25,000 what are the Blue Jays becoming the pawn shop of the MLB.

 

Have you ever played fantasy baseball?

 

Teams are constantly tinkering, adding and dropping, at the fringes of there roster. Injuries, performance, and other random events change player perceptions and roster considerations on a very frequent basis. It's this way in real baseball and if you've every played fantasy baseball you'd have a sense of it.

[saskjayfan]

Urshela probably doesn't develop into what he is in any other org. Complaining about losing him is pointless.

 

I'm not sure about that, but there's no way to have predicted it so complaining about it was pointless. Trading Hendriks in hindsight is a bit sad. He seems like a fun guy. Can't blame that one on Atkins though. He was hired Dec 3 and Hendriks was moved on the 20th of November for Jesse Chavez. I guess that's the one trade that's on Shapiro.

[EastCoaster]

Scouts can't really predict with certainty so and so won't play such and such a position and they know it.

 

The algorithm has always been play a guy at the tougher position for as long as possible.

 

The version of Vlad that is a rock solid 230 pound lightning cat that hit that spring training home run in Montreal would of been passable at third. When he showed up stay puft style for the second time at summer camp he made the decision for them. But it's pretty common to play a guy at the tougher position as long as possible. They did the same thing with Lourdes.

 

Vlad Jr was a mediocre 3rd baseman at best in 2019 17 errors in 96 games only Devers had more errors with 22 but he played 152 games at 3rd base. In retrospect there's noway he was remotely close of becoming a Nolan Arenado or Matt Chapman like 3rd baseman. If take them until they get to MLB to figure out what the best position each player should play then they got a serious problem on their hands. Time to clean house in minor leagues every other team has sense of what position their player should play and they transition them into their respective position in the minors where they can full develop into MLB players at that position.

 

Yeah on how did that play out for Gurriel in the infield luckily he transition in the outfield fairly well but there's still situations that he's misplays the ball but he's improving with each outing.

[EastCoaster]

Have you ever played fantasy baseball?

 

Teams are constantly tinkering, adding and dropping, at the fringes of there roster. Injuries, performance, and other random events change player perceptions and roster considerations on a very frequent basis. It's this way in real baseball and if you've every played fantasy baseball you'd have a sense of it.

 

MLB teams shouldn't be playing fantasy baseball with players lives.

 

Fantasy baseball is for the wanna be GM while the real GM job is to provide team stability with an arsenal of regular players and depth from his group of bench players within the team financial realm.

[Laika]

Vlad Jr was a mediocre 3rd baseman at best in 2019 17 errors in 96 games only Devers had more errors with 22 but he played 152 games at 3rd base. In retrospect there's noway he was remotely close of becoming a Nolan Arenado or Matt Chapman like 3rd baseman. If take them until they get to MLB to figure out what the best position each player should play then they got a serious problem on their hands. Time to clean house in minor leagues every other team has sense of what position their player should play and they transition them into their respective position in the minors where they can full develop into MLB players at that position.

 

Yeah on how did that play out for Gurriel in the infield luckily he transition in the outfield fairly well but there's still situations that he's misplays the ball but he's improving with each outing.

 

Rafael Devers is actually the perfect example of WHY Toronto gave Vlad a chance to play third base.

 

Devers came up as a doughy, fat, baby-bodied hitter just like Vlad. He was BAD at third base as a rookie and BAD AGAIN as a sophomore. In 2019 during his huge year he was above average at third base! Hard work and dedication, man.

[Laika]

MLB teams shouldn't be playing fantasy baseball with players lives.

 

Fantasy baseball is for the wanna be GM while the real GM job is to provide team stability with an arsenal of regular players and depth from his group of bench players within the team financial realm.

 

okay

 

look at the transaction history of literally every MLB team if you want proof that you are wrong

 

no organization just acquires and holds players forever

 

the teams that get ahead are the ones who make correction decisions on when to cut bait on someone and when to acquire someone new

[EastCoaster]

Rafael Devers is actually the perfect example of WHY Toronto gave Vlad a chance to play third base.

 

Devers came up as a doughy, fat, baby-bodied hitter just like Vlad. He was BAD at third base as a rookie and BAD AGAIN as a sophomore. In 2019 during his huge year he was above average at third base! Hard work and dedication, man.

 

Rafael Devers has been the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league for the last 3 years in a row and that's including this year he's ranked #1 with errors committed. He's still a bad fielding 3rd baseman today the Red Sox doesn't have anybody to replace him he took over for Pablo Sandoval.

[Dick_Pole]

MLB teams shouldn't be playing fantasy baseball with players lives.

 

Fantasy baseball is for the wanna be GM while the real GM job is to provide team stability with an arsenal of regular players and depth from his group of bench players within the team financial realm.

 

A fringe player would be dancing on the moon to earn the league minimum for a week for whatever team will sign him. You want stability? Play better so a team will want to keep you. I know how things work out on the Canadian east coast but us here Ontario folk believe in competition, capitalism and a meritocracy. You don't even wanna know what the Albertans believe in.

[Olerud363]

A fringe player would be dancing on the moon to earn the league minimum for a week for whatever team will sign him. You want stability? Play better so a team will want to keep you. I know how things work out on the Canadian east coast but us here Ontario folk believe in competition, capitalism and a meritocracy. You don't even wanna know what the Albertans believe in.

 

My relatives from Alberta post mems about Justin (bad), oil (good), rigs (good), snowmobiles (good), old age pension (good), tools (good), pipelines (good), protesters (bad).

[Olerud363]

My relatives from Alberta post mems about Justin (bad), oil (good), rigs (good), snowmobiles (good), old age pension (good), tools (good), pipelines (good), protesters (bad).

 

Surprisingly a lot of posts about the old age pension. Seems they (the Albertans) think you should work like hell for 40 years until you are done, then you get the pension. They don't like it when Justin gives money to environment/alternative energy/welfare (for people under 60)/ money should be given to the pipeline or the pension, no handouts for the young people.

[wilko]

My relatives from Alberta post mems about Justin (bad), oil (good), rigs (good), snowmobiles (good), old age pension (good), tools (good), pipelines (good), protesters (bad).

 

As an east coaster now living in Alberta for 10+ years we went from being libtards to conservative dicks.

[Laika]

Rafael Devers has been the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league for the last 3 years in a row and that's including this year he's ranked #1 with errors committed. He's still a bad fielding 3rd baseman today the Red Sox doesn't have anybody to replace him he took over for Pablo Sandoval.

 

He was good last year by modern measurements. Errors are a bad measurement of defensive contribution.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&year=2019&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=5&roles=&viz=show