General 2016 Blue Jays discussion thread

[Terminator]

Problem is, where is the evidence that doing this is beneficial?

 

They should just stick to him pitching his turn in the rotation and not try to beat the injury fairy.

 

So what exactly are you saying? That Sanchez throwing 200 innings this year as strictly a starter is just as likely to keep him healthy as him moving to the bullpen midseason and throwing 150? How?

[Terminator]

That was a completely serious post. I don't think your reaction was exactly necessary. If you disagree that's fine. But that's a lot of work out of the pen. Especially at that point in the season. But whatever it is what it is.

 

Then make it 20 IP with a 3rd of the season left to go. I don't know the exact number. But you can't tell me that pitching 120-160 innings (even if some of them come from the pen) is going to put more wear on his arm then him pitching 200 as a starter. The American Sports Medicine Institute released a study that said to pitch less and avoid pitching past fatigue to avoid injury, particularly TJS.

 

Yes, pitching in relief 3 times a week is more often than starting 1.5 times a week but you aren't putting nearly as much fatigue on your arm and any concern for making more appearances can be alleviated by simply pitching in relief twice a week instead.

 

And I don't really care if you think it's necessary. If I have to constantly see you whine about everything then you can deal with a pointed post or two.

[glory]

Yeah, with a competent manager, I could see Sanchez's transition to the pen to end the year being sensible to keep his innings down, but competent and John Gibbons (especially bullpen management) don't go together. Sanchez will be throwing 3 days in a row, or 4 out of 5 days, late in the year at some point.

[Terminator]

Yeah, with a competent manager, I could see Sanchez's transition to the pen to end the year being sensible to keep his innings down, but competent and John Gibbons (especially bullpen management) don't go together. Sanchez will be throwing 3 days in a row, or 4 out of 5 days, late in the year at some point.

 

He's not that stupid. They aren't going to put Sanchez in the pen and then Gibby starts throwing him 3 days in a row. lol

 

He seems to understand why they are moving him to the bullpen.

[Terminator]

If the scores hold the Jays will be just 2 GB of the AL East lead. Could increase their lead in the second WC spot depending on what the M's do as well.

 

Not that this is particularly important right now or anything but it's remarkable how fast they have put themselves in playoff position since before that Twins series 3 weeks ago.

[candymartinez]

So what exactly are you saying? That Sanchez throwing 200 innings this year as strictly a starter is just as likely to keep him healthy as him moving to the bullpen midseason and throwing 150? How?

 

Not at all. There is obviously more risk pitching 200 compared to 150. Just like pitching 100 innings is more likely to get an injury than 10 innings. Or running 100 miles will likely give you a twisted ankle or pull quad than running 1 mile.

 

I just think there are SOOOO many variables involved that I don't think there is any perfect way to prevent arm injuries. So, might as well use him when he's healthy and pitching well. That's what he's getting paid to do.

[Terminator]

Not at all. There is obviously more risk pitching 200 compared to 150. Just like pitching 100 innings is more likely to get an injury than 10 innings. Or running 100 miles will likely give you a twisted ankle or pull quad than running 1 mile.

 

I just think there are SOOOO many variables involved that I don't think there is any perfect way to prevent arm injuries. So, might as well use him when he's healthy and pitching well. That's what he's getting paid to do.

 

Well that makes more sense. Perhaps the 90 to 200 IP shouldn't be a concern. It's not with Stroman for some reason. I don't mind them being cautious with what has turned out to be a hell of an asset though.

 

What Jonn is saying, that somehow throwing 150 IP both starting and bullpen combined is worse for him than 200 IP just starting, is just stupid.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

Oddity and Fun Fact in this all ya'll

Not counting sides and practise or warming up cause we don't know what that might be, but actuall game thrown innings in the last Four years.

Including the majors and minor leagues!

 

Stroman has pitched 404.2 innings

 

Shanchez has pitched 406.2 innings

 

Boom Goes the Dynomite !!!

 

Interesting Hmmmmmmm !!! 😃

 

This is what I found and posted earlier so discuss this ??? Why is there a difference for either?

[Stangstag]

So today i've learned that we have a lot of doctors on the forum. Wow!

 

I'm not sure why its so hard for some of you to understand that a panel of experts and the suits in the front office who DO THIS FOR A LIVING believe that it is better to transition Sanchez to the bullpen to keep his arm from wearing out. Why don't you guys stop pretending you know better than the front office.

[Brownie19]

Sure they have "certified experts" (lol), however, the results from these innings limits that are imposed on pitchers aren't reducing injuries.

So, there is no point in Sanchez pitching less.

 

There's no evidence to suggest inning limits aren't working...

[candymartinez]

So today i've learned that we have a lot of doctors on the forum. Wow!

 

I'm not sure why its so hard for some of you to understand that a panel of experts and the suits in the front office who DO THIS FOR A LIVING believe that it is better to transition Sanchez to the bullpen to keep his arm from wearing out. Why don't you guys stop pretending you know better than the front office.

 

You know injuries to pitchers aren't going down, right?

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming they know how to prevent injuries to pitchers. Other than, not pitching.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

But is there evidence to support it is?

 

Got some Browneye! Lol

[Stangstag]

You know injuries to pitchers aren't going down, right?

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming they know how to prevent injuries to pitchers. Other than, not pitching.

 

But you were claiming you know better than the front office, and so is Jonn

[Grant77]

You know injuries to pitchers aren't going down, right?

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming they know how to prevent injuries to pitchers. Other than, not pitching.

 

You can debate this to no end, but one point isn't up for debate. Our front office is convinced that this will be good for Sanchez's long term health.

[Stangstag]

You can debate this to no end, but one point isn't up for debate. Our front office is convinced that this will be good for Sanchez's long term health.

 

Exactly my point

[Atothe]

You know injuries to pitchers aren't going down, right?

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming they know how to prevent injuries to pitchers. Other than, not pitching.

 

I think erring on the side of caution is definitely non-controversial.

[Frag]

[Jonn]

I think erring on the side of caution is definitely non-controversial.

 

This is going to be extremely controversial. It will be the main story.

[Frag]

So today i've learned that we have a lot of doctors on the forum. Wow!

 

I'm not sure why its so hard for some of you to understand that a panel of experts and the suits in the front office who DO THIS FOR A LIVING believe that it is better to transition Sanchez to the bullpen to keep his arm from wearing out. Why don't you guys stop pretending you know better than the front office.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[Frag]

The most I can say right now is that this front office doesn't care about public image, even when they plan to put the team's best starting pitcher (at least, this season) in the bullpen to save his arm. As for whether there is evidence to back up this move, I don't know at the time. I remember a similar controversy regarding Stephen Strasburg and Matt Harvey.

[intentional wok]

What is it exactly that's making everyone question Sanchez's durability? Is it just because he's been mostly limited to the pen for the two years prior to this one?

[Governator]

What is it exactly that's making everyone question Sanchez's durability? Is it just because he's been mostly limited to the pen for the two years prior to this one?

 

I believe it's because he never pitched more than 133 innings in a season. I don't know the numbers but I believe they try to increase a pitcher's innings by 30-35 per year to build up durability which would put him at a risk by most standards for 200 ip. Stroman on the other hand pitched 165 or so the year before his leg injury.

[Maahfaace]

I think what irks me the most is I recall Shapiro in a preseason interview stating that inning limits arent something he prescribes too. and that a pitchers durability will be determined by fatigue/performance drop as the season progressed which would ultimately determine if a move to the pen would be made. I agree with this line of thinking. So far, Sanchez hasn't expressed fatigue or shown it, and his performance has been improving, so for Gibbons to come out and contradict what was stated in the interview is really perplexing. I personally don't understand how putting an arbitrary limit on how many innings a pitcher should throw helps prevent injury, other than that if he's not pitching hes not getting hurt cockwash. This type of archaic thinking shouldnt be part of any front office anymore than "he's fast so let Pillar hit leadoff" ******** should.

[Maahfaace]

I believe it's because he never pitched more than 133 innings in a season. I don't know the numbers but I believe they try to increase a pitcher's innings by 30-35 per year to build up durability which would put him at a risk by most standards for 200 ip. Stroman on the other hand pitched 165 or so the year before his leg injury.

 

I think that is complete nonsense, players fatigue because of inadequate rest times, not overall innings pitched. It would of been more prudent for the front office to baby him by giving him ample time to recover between starts (ie spot starts for hutch and AAA fodder, skips in the rotation)

[THANOS]

I believe it's because he never pitched more than 133 innings in a season. I don't know the numbers but I believe they try to increase a pitcher's innings by 30-35 per year to build up durability which would put him at a risk by most standards for 200 ip. Stroman on the other hand pitched 165 or so the year before his leg injury.

 

I just find it odd because there are situations where drastic innings jumps worked just fine for the SP going forward.

 

- Chris Sale went from 71 IP in relief to 192 IP as a starter.

- Clayton Kershaw went from 107 IP to 171 IP.

 

I'm sure there are more examples, but these particular ones didn't result in injuries the following seasons. Hell when Strasbourg was shut down, he got injured anyway.

 

Also, if they are so concerned about his innings pitched, why not run with a 6-man rotation post ASB and give him and Stroman 1 extra day of rest each (sometimes 2) until the end of the season?

[THANOS]

I think what irks me the most is I recall Shapiro in a preseason interview stating that inning limits arent something he prescribes too. and that a pitchers durability will be determined by fatigue/performance drop as the season progressed which would ultimately determine if a move to the pen would be made. I agree with this line of thinking. So far, Sanchez hasn't expressed fatigue or shown it, and his performance has been improving, so for Gibbons to come out and contradict what was stated in the interview is really perplexing. I personally don't understand how putting an arbitrary limit on how many innings a pitcher should throw helps prevent injury, other than that if he's not pitching hes not getting hurt cockwash. This type of archaic thinking shouldnt be part of any front office anymore than "he's fast so let Pillar hit leadoff" ******** should.

 

Would not be surprised at all if this is Gibbons pushing for Sanchez to join the bullpen, to make his decisions look better, more than anything else.

[Frag]

FWIW, here's a 2012 BP article about the issue:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17517

[ChrisS]

So what happens if Hutch comes up and gets blown up two starts in a row? Whats the consensus on calling up Wade Leblanc instead? He does have a 1.51 ERA through 13 starts.

Maybe the better option is to put Chavez into the rotation as he has been solid recently.

We play 19/24 games at home in July and although the sample size isnt large, Sanchez has been better on the road. He has 3 starts left this month which should push him upto ~ 105 innings.

Maybe they shut him down at the end of the month... If we could get Cecil back and have him regain his form from last year our bullpen would look pretty good.

[crazy47larry]

FWIW, here's a 2012 BP article about the issue:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17517

 

also verducci does his list every year

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/02/09/year-after-effect-noah-syndergaard-luis-severino

[RealAccountant]

I don't see how you can afford to take your second best starter out of the rotation in the middle of a penant race