Jays sign Thole

[Terminator]

 

[Trouba95]

Blah. Would've preferred Flowers

[burlingtonbandit]

Makes sense. Honestly probably could of got him for less. What MLB team would of given him a 25 man roster spot other than Toronto?

[Orgfiller]

Blah. Would've preferred Flowers

 

This deal is just barely above league min. This won't restrict us from signing/trading for a superior backup catcher.

[Laika]

Blah. Would've preferred Flowers

 

They can still add a better backup. Thole is out of options but it's very likely that he would clear waivers so it doesn't really matter.

 

He also doesn't quite qualify for the "Veteran's Consent Rule" so he can't even demand to be released if they try to waive him off the 25 man to Buffalo. And even if he could refuse assignment to AAA, he probably wouldn't because being in whatever organization has RA Dickey is his best path to MLB playing time and he knows it.

 

I find it more likely than not that Thole will be in Buffalo to start the year, as the team's 3rd C. But we'll see.

[Trouba95]

This deal is just barely above league min. This won't restrict us from signing/trading for a superior backup catcher.

 

So you think Thole will still be up to take up a roster spot and catch Dickey or be in Buffalo?

[BTS]

Sure. Flowers was the only clear upgrade available via free agency, and he's probably in no hurry to play behind Martin.

[Orgfiller]

So you think Thole will still be up to take up a roster spot and catch Dickey or be in Buffalo?

 

See NJH's response.

 

It's too early to tell, obviously as it stands he's catcher #2 but there's a lot of time left for that to change. I wouldn't put it past this front office to bring in an inexpensive catcher with good framing numbers.

[burlingtonbandit]

I think whoever the backup catcher is they will want him to be catching Dickey. I forget what article it was but Martin's numbers were beyond terrible on days Dickey starts. When the upgrade of a backup catcher like half a win I'd rather Martin have a better chance of being healthy/more productive.

[BTS]

I wonder how good Thole's framing numbers would be if he weren't chained to Dickey. He hovers within a few runs of zero in either direction.

[King]

Jimenez is out of options. Easy DFA candidate?

[KingKat]

See NJH's response.

 

It's too early to tell, obviously as it stands he's catcher #2 but there's a lot of time left for that to change. I wouldn't put it past this front office to bring in an inexpensive catcher with good framing numbers.

 

Doesn't Thole himself have good framing numbers?

 

Edit: answered by BTS

[burlingtonbandit]

I wonder how good Thole's framing numbers would be if he weren't chained to Dickey. He hovers within a few runs of zero in either direction.

 

He's really good IIRC. Top 15 I want to say but I could be wrong.

[bendera3]

Just throwing it out there but how good at framing does our backup have to be? Martin is excellent and I remember him having a ton of difficulties trying to frame Dickey.

[G-Snarls]

Good deal

[Laika]

Just throwing it out there but how good at framing does our backup have to be? Martin is excellent and I remember him having a ton of difficulties trying to frame Dickey.

 

He doesn't have to necessarily be good or bad. You're just looking for the best player, period. But when your pool of available dudes pretty much all project to hit below their weight, the best ones are just very likely going to be fancy framers since that skill has so much influence on a catcher's defensive value.

 

One guy who the Blue Jays should take a long look at IMO is Michael McKenry. He's actually a below average framer but might be the best hitting catcher on the free agent market right now.

[bendera3]

He doesn't have to necessarily be good or bad. You're just looking for the best player, period. But when your pool of available dudes pretty much all project to hit below their weight, the best ones are just very likely going to be fancy framers since that skill has so much influence on a catcher's defensive value.

 

One guy who the Blue Jays should take a long look at IMO is Michael McKenry. He's actually a below average framer but might be the best hitting catcher on the free agent market right now.

 

I get that but because of having Dickey we can't necessarily get the best player. We have to get the best player who keeps the ball in front of him when Dickey throws it. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly here.

[Frenchsoup]

I could see Thole on the team. The question then becomes, do you mind having an AJ Jimenez/ Thole if Russ goes down.

[Laika]

I get that but because of having Dickey we can't necessarily get the best player. We have to get the best player who keeps the ball in front of him when Dickey throws it. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly here.

 

I don't even really think framing numbers would have much to do with being able to handle Dickey. It's not the same skill. Only a small influence since you probably need soft hands to do both things very well.

 

Personally, I think Martin is fine catching Dickey. Sure you want a backup that can probably handle Dickey so they can share the knuckleball load, but you don't need a backup who can be a personal caddy to RA and catch 33 games. Martin's offensive numbers in a 21 game split catching Dickey are virtually meaningless, by the way.

[Ziggyy108]

Having Thole as the primary backup would be a nightmare IMO.

 

If Russ went down we would be f***ed.

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't even really think framing numbers would have much to do with being able to handle Dickey. It's not the same skill. Only a small influence since you probably need soft hands to do both things very well.

 

Personally, I think Martin is fine catching Dickey. Sure you want a backup that can probably handle Dickey so they can share the knuckleball load, but you don't need a backup who can be a personal caddy to RA and catch 33 games. Martin's offensive numbers in a 21 game split catching Dickey are virtually meaningless, by the way.

 

Its not just about Martin's performance while catching Dickey though, you have to weigh the extra injury risk of him catching Dickey. Martin said he jammed his thumb a couple times since he can't catch the ball on the sweet spot like a conventional pitcher.

 

I'd rather use Thole and give Martin the best chance of being healthy/productive than get a backup catcher who might add an extra 3-4 runs over the course of the season. I think there is too much risk letting Martin catch Dickey 30 times, personally.

[Laika]

Its not just about Martin's performance while catching Dickey though, you have to weigh the extra injury risk of him catching Dickey. Martin said he jammed his thumb a couple times since he can't catch the ball on the sweet spot like a conventional pitcher.

 

I'd rather use Thole and give Martin the best chance of being healthy/productive than get a backup catcher who might add an extra 3-4 runs over the course of the season. I think there is too much risk letting Martin catch Dickey 30 times, personally.

 

1) I don't really care about Martin possibly jamming his thumb. Catching is a tough job, period. Martin is a thick, hairy Canadian dude. He can manage.

2) Even if Dickey does significantly increase Martin's injury risk, the sensible solution to that problem would be to get rid of Dickey. Categorically benching an $82M investment for a bag of s*** like Thole is retarded.

[Laika]

When you're paying $82M for the services of a catcher in his mid 30's, you f***ing ride him into the ground. Russell Martin should be begging for retirement and reaching for a cane at the end of 2019. And hopefully with a smile on his face, since he'll have a bunch of rings by then.

[Spanky99]

 

 

Like I didn't see that happening...

[Spanky99]

Sure. Flowers was the only clear upgrade available via free agency, and he's probably in no hurry to play behind Martin.

 

How about Kratz?

[Maico450]

Thole had some decent batting results when he was getting more playing time in New York. There, he was much more than just RA.s personal catcher. Playing every 5th day has to be tough.

[burlingtonbandit]

1) I don't really care about Martin possibly jamming his thumb. Catching is a tough job, period. Martin is a thick, hairy Canadian dude. He can manage.

2) Even if Dickey does significantly increase Martin's injury risk, the sensible solution to that problem would be to get rid of Dickey. Categorically benching an $82M investment for a bag of s*** like Thole is retarded.

 

Risking an $82 million investment for a 3 run upgrade doesn't seem smart either. I found the article and Martin hit like Josh Thole while catching Dickey. Normally I'd say the sample means nothing but when the performance is so different I think we can say there is something there. Russ even acknowledged how tough it was catching Dickey.

 

In his 21 games catching Dickey, Martin totalled 85 plate appearances, and hit an abysmal .179/.224/.333, for a .557 OPS and .241 wOBA. On days Martin caught Dickey, he hit like Omar Infante (.238 wOBA) and Alexi Amarista (.236 wOBA). His walk rate plummeted to 4.7%, and his batted ball profile saw an equally disgusting GB/FB/LD split of 58.2%, 29.9%, and 11.9%, respectively. Russell played on the day after catching a Dickey start 15 times, and in those 63 plate appearances his batting line improved to a far more respectable .241/.339/.444, with a .783 OPS and .341 wOBA – both closely in line with his overall numbers for the season. The day after catching Dickey, Martin hit like Todd Frazier (.342 wOBA) and Justin Upton (.340 wOBA).

 

http://capitaljays.com/2015/11/04/the-knuckleball-effect-on-russell-martin/

[Spanky99]

Jimenez is out of options. Easy DFA candidate?

 

I was wondering if they'd have him catch Dickey, but it makes sense keeping Thole.

[Laika]

Risking an $82 million investment for a 3 run upgrade doesn't seem smart either. I found the article and Martin hit like Josh Thole while catching Dickey. Normally I'd say the sample means nothing but when the performance is so different I think we can say there is something there. Russ even acknowledged how tough it was catching Dickey.

 

http://capitaljays.com/2015/11/04/the-knuckleball-effect-on-russell-martin/

 

sample size of 85 plate appearances lol

 

that article needs to DIAF

 

it's only possible use is as inspiration for doing a proper WOWY on whether or not Dickey actually makes his catchers suck at hitting. Even if he does, it strikes me as more likely to be a timing thing than an injury thing. Catching the knuckleball could maybe mess up your timing for hitting. And if that's the case then you still might as well throw Martin out there because he's your best defensive catcher.

[Spanky99]

Having Thole as the primary backup would be a nightmare IMO.

 

If Russ went down we would be f***ed.

 

For how long though? Mind you, I'd rather have Kratz, he'd give the club the same WAR as Navvy.