AA: Jays need to upgrade at the 5th starter and 2B spot

[ElNik2013]

I see what you're saying, yes, they could spend, but at the same time, at the cost of weakening the pen to free up salary, so there's conditions with that. Also, the story that came out about 4 players willing to defer their salaries to make room, makes me wonder, at what cost this extra $14M was going to take, and why didn't they just get it over with a lot earlier.

 

 

They have depth in the pen in terms of high leverage relievers. Santos/Janssen could be replaced by one of Santos/Janssen, Delabar, Wagner plus John Stilson pitched well in ST and is viewed as a high leverage reliever in the near future. The trade off would've been a better overall team. Let's say they had signed a proven starter and a 2B with the money freed up, that would've made the team better. They kept the strong pen and they've blown 3 leads of 3 or more runs already.

 

AA said all off season they were looking to add 1, 2 or even 3 starters, he just didn't get it done. He kept waiting for prices to fall until it was too late, it's on him first and foremost, he got too cute.

[GeorgiaPeach]

He could've traded Janssen and/or Santos and /or Cecil, to make room for Santana's salary?

 

Those 3 Jays will either walk as a free agent, or continually get extended until they retire.

 

You gotta love a FO that panders to what the fans want.

[xposbrad]

Lol definitions is what gets you. Same thing to me. No team can be a lock to win the WS or anything.

 

That's true. Even in some years where the Yanks or Dodgers were the favorites, other teams did better and got further in the playoff rounds. I think that goes for every sport really, but Toronto needs too many pieces for this year to win. They don't have a legitimate #1, and they probably need a #2 also. On top of the 2b problem.

 

I mean, look at every team, 75% probably are 3 good players away from being a good contending team, that's going to be the case every year. But budget constraints, lack of depth in the minors, injuries, there will always be an excuse why teams can't take it to the next level.

[skinny123]

I don't understand why fans want to continue on down that road?

 

It puts the Jays in a further financial bind and cuts at the future even deeper.

 

Financial bind is a rogers spin, this isn't a small market team, they have no money worries, it's only there because they choose to make it an issue. You don't see boston or new york ever whining about money.

[skinny123]

They have depth in the pen in terms of high leverage relievers. Santos/Janssen could be replaced by one of Santos/Janssen, Delabar, Wagner plus John Stilson pitched well in ST and is viewed as a high leverage reliever in the near future. The trade off would've been a better overall team. Let's say they had signed a proven starter and a 2B with the money freed up, that would've made the team better. They kept the strong pen and they've blown 3 leads of 3 or more runs already.

 

AA said all off season they were looking to add 1, 2 or even 3 starters, he just didn't get it done. He kept waiting for prices to fall until it was too late, it's on him first and foremost, he got too cute.

 

Why not keep santos and janssen, the more depth the better, wagner and stilson are nothing to lay your hat on.They should just spend the money, and do what it takes to compete in the east, or just stop misleading the fans. Last year beeston said they would win two championships in the next 5 years, I don't see this commitment at the present time. All I'm seeing is make do with what we have, we blew it all last year, and we're not bailing you out anymore.

[ElNik2013]

Why not keep santos and janssen, the more depth the better, wagner and stilson are nothing to lay your hat on.They should just spend the money, and do what it takes to compete in the east, or just stop misleading the fans. Last year beeston said they would win two championships in the next 5 years, I don't see this commitment at the present time. All I'm seeing is make do with what we have, we blew it all last year, and we're not bailing you out anymore.

 

Because according to you, they had no money to spend:

 

If rogers doesn't give him the ok to take on the extra salaries, then no, there's no hope and there never will be.

 

 

They had at least $14M in payroll room. If they needed more to address more of their needs, they could've dealt one of Janssen/Santos and we can add Happ to the list, to address other needs.

 

All signs point to AA simply failing to address needs that he, himself, said would be their priority.

[skinny123]

Because according to you, they had no money to spend:

 

 

 

 

They had at least $14M in payroll room. If they needed more to address more of their needs, they could've dealt one of Janssen/Santos and we can add Happ to the list, to address other needs.

 

All signs point to AA simply failing to address needs that he, himself, said would be their priority.

 

I'm not going to defend AA, I'm not happy with his decisions, and I can't say with certainty what goes on behind closed doors when it comes to spending, but, judging by last year, it seems just to get 1 arm, there had to be a perfect storm.

[Angrioter]

Agree, Uggla is overpaid and no bat or defense left in the tank.

 

Why?

 

Because Alex is f***ing stupid.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Why not keep santos and janssen, the more depth the better, wagner and stilson are nothing to lay your hat on.

 

Because you're paying RP's 5+ mil when you could be allocating that money to a better SP and be paying young solid RP's like Stilson & Wagner LG MIN. The bullpen & bench are below the lineup and rotation on where money should be spent first.

 

They should just spend the money, and do what it takes to compete in the east, or just stop misleading the fans. Last year beeston said they would win two championships in the next 5 years, I don't see this commitment at the present time. All I'm seeing is make do with what we have, we blew it all last year, and we're not bailing you out anymore.

 

If you don't allow yourself to be misled, because you see the product on the field doesn't match up with what s*** Beeston is spewing about contending then don't worry about it. But if you hear Beeston talk about contending and you're like ....."yeah the Jays can contend"......then you're either delusional or let an idiot sway your opinion.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I see this Beeston/ownership blame-shifting all the time, and it's nonsensical. If anything, a brand new GM would have more oversight and/or usurpation of power than one who had already been entrusted with stripping down an organization and restarting/redirecting the underlying process of building a team. There wasn't a dramatic shift in anything, other than the availability and willingness to spend money. The underlying reasoning and ability didn't change. For instance, the Rasmus deal was taking a prospect and set-up man for a rental starter, and then packaging the rental starter with relievers and bit parts for a troubled "promising" player. They took on what some considered an undervalued headcase. Well, what did they do with Happ? A flurry of minor prospects, relievers and bit pieces flying back and forth in order to land a potential gem. A guy who flirted with quality K rates but had some command issues. Another diamond in the rough or undervalued guy, obtained for fungible bits. And then they locked him up on a "value" deal for the performance they expected, as AA has done in the past.

 

It just so happened that Happ stunk.

 

And the Marlins deal was AA's baby.

 

If ownership takes blame, it's for not providing funds earlier (but we don't know if they didn't and it wasn't utilized). If Beeston deserves blame, it's for not being enough of an oversight guy and stopping AA from himself by squashing the huge Marlins deal before it reached ownership.

 

If it is the case that it's all Alex, then maybe he should see his road to success would've been patience and slow building instead of pretending the Jays are a big market team.

 

If he would've let the system naturally promote Syndergaard & d'Arnaud to push a mediocre SP & Arencibia out of the picture. I would've been completely fine with that over Dickey. I didn't need a rush job to contention like most sports fans need. "OMG, my team better contend now or else"........those fans can pretty much go f*** themselves.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Financial bind is a rogers spin, this isn't a small market team, they have no money worries, it's only there because they choose to make it an issue. You don't see boston or new york ever whining about money.

 

I know they're not a small market, but they're also not a big market.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Because Alex is f***ing stupid.

 

I asked why? Meaning why even bring Uggla's name up? He's f***ing s***.

[ElNik2013]

I asked why? Meaning why even bring Uggla's name up? He's f***ing s***.

 

 

You know, he's trolling. He who picked them to win 90+ games last year.

 

That move would've happened already if AA was that dumb. I mean, why wouldn't the Braves just try to get rid of Uggla's contract. I doubt they'd even ask for much in return.

[Angrioter]

Agree, Uggla is overpaid and no bat or defense left in the tank.

 

Why?

 

I asked why? Meaning why even bring Uggla's name up? He's f***ing s***.

 

He's an awful player, but Alex will search on baseball reference website and will focus on Uggla's "dingers years"

[GeorgiaPeach]

That was the point. That Alex would make that move.

 

Maybe. With the way he has blinders on to address weaknesses only lately. OMG our defence was putrid, the only thing I'm looking to upgrade is defence. 2B & 5th SP are bad, I'm looking to upgrade those spots.

 

If he can move Rasmus, Bautista or Edwin for an upgrade elsewhere, he should be looking at it. Not saying these guys are long term fixtures.

[skinny123]

I know they're not a small market, but they're also not a big market.

 

That's up for debate, the only team in the league that has a whole country at the palm of their hands.

[GeorgiaPeach]

That's up for debate, the only team in the league that has a whole country at the palm of their hands.

 

True. But this is a hockey country.

 

And California has more people than Canada.

[GeorgiaPeach]

The Jays are a big market team.

 

When compared against their peers I have them around 10th in baseball for market size. "Market" being a bunch of different factors.

 

The Jays also have under-utilized that large market.

 

True to a point. I would say the Jays were neglectful for a time. But you also can't force a hockey first country to be a fan of baseball or any other sport.

 

You have a lot of free time on your hands. Years. You were the one who didn't care how long a baseball game was, either.

 

The Jays have 20 years of futility. 20 years of not only not making the playoffs, but never really being a meaningful player through a season. Fans don't, nor should they, give a hit that AA wasn't fully responsible for all of those years. They're Jays fans, not AA fans (or whatever the current regime is). And fans who don't understand that there's a more pressing need to compete can definitely go f*** themselves. Really slowly. Take all the time you need. Don't rush it. That doesn't mean his moves were quality, because they obviously weren't (at the time, not in hindsight).

 

I was loving most of the moves up to the Marlins trade. And in hindsight stick by my original like or dislike of a trade. The Marlins trade was exciting to nab what we did. But we gave up a ton of financially flexible youth and value, the excitement and high-priced big names we got was an immediate injection of talent for a huge loss of talent a couple years down the road. Even the Happ trade hate was overblown. Most of the pieces we moved, 1st rounders or not were progressing slowly.

[skinny123]

True. But this is a hockey country.

 

And California has more people than Canada.

 

Considering that the hockey team is basically irrelevant from april to september, doesn't really quantify.

 

California has how many baseball teams? Dodgers, A's, Giants, Angels, Padres, the current population of Canada is 36 million.

 

The team owns the sportnetwork channel which is broadcast throughout the whole country, and most Canadians consider the jays their team, from coast to coast. One of the few things Canadians share as a nation, besides having a dolt like harper as their leader.

Edited April 27, 2014 by skinny123

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Considering that the hockey team is basically irrelevant from april to september, doesn't really quantify.

 

California has how many baseball teams? Dodgers, A's, Giants, Angels, Padres, the current population of Canada is 36 million.

 

The team owns the sportnetwork channel which is broadcast throughout the whole country, and most canadians consider the jays their team, from coast to coast. One of the few things Canadians share as a nation, besides having a dolt like harper as their leader.

 

Toronto not being a big market team is just one of the myths on here that has life regardless of reality. The stadium sold out from 1990-1993.

Since then, Toronto has continued to grow and made out far better during the economic crisis then most US cities. Detroit continues to sign contracts and the city is bankrupt; somehow they still make it work. Oakland and most areas of Florida are struggling, yet their teams make it work.

 

Rogers, like any corporation ( see Interbrew ), may choose to operate the team as a profit center if the community is dumb enough to take it as is. In reality, these sports teams add value to their multimedia operations and the stadium attendance grows when we have a winning team. I am actually happy to see that the fans have already protested this weak off season by only attending around 10-15K for mid week games. Baseball is rich right now, the Yankees also had an aging roster / pitching weak situation and their ownership clearly stated the numbers showed spending money increases their profits, even with a luxury tax. While Toronto can't match that market at the moment ( we did in 1990 ), we certainly can do a portion of what they do.

 

In a league where the richer clubs have a big advantage, Toronto chooses to squander that advantage. It is what it is. Those who make excuses based on the market or actually want a complete rebuild don't have any idea how bad things would get in those scenarios. I doubt many of these people would attend games or even watch them on TV if they were a 95-105 loss team several years in a row like the Cubs or Astros.

[saskjayfan]

When compared against their peers I have them around 10th in baseball for market size. "Market" being a bunch of different factors.

 

 

 

True to a point. I would say the Jays were neglectful for a time. But you also can't force a hockey first country to be a fan of baseball or any other sport.

 

 

 

I was loving most of the moves up to the Marlins trade. And in hindsight stick by my original like or dislike of a trade. The Marlins trade was exciting to nab what we did. But we gave up a ton of financially flexible youth and value, the excitement and high-priced big names we got was an immediate injection of talent for a huge loss of talent a couple years down the road. Even the Happ trade hate was overblown. Most of the pieces we moved, 1st rounders or not were progressing slowly.

 

Markets are defined by population. The greater Toronto market is the 4th largest sporting market by population in North America. New York, LA and Chicago have 2 clubs each to divide fans. The Jays also draw on fans from across Canada. The Jays have lost a generation of fans, by not competing. If they actually made the playoffs the fan base would grow. We are not a baseball first market by any means with Hockey being number one, but look at the Raps. If we win, fans will come and revenues will grow. As it is the Jays have the highest average ticket price in the league. The Jays just need to build a winner and spending the money would make sense if it was allocated properly.

[reedjohnsonfan]

Move McGowan to the pen, where he belongs, and get Stroman up here. He's got nothing left to prove in AAA.

 

Agree. It's Stroman's time to sink or swim.

[kgm1]

Exactly what I think mate. Uhmmm.........I mean after the Happ deal it was all AA prior, he liked Happ, but the off-season of 13 didn't shout Alex, more Beeston than anything, he even intruded and made the deal for Farrell?! That f*** needs to retire or DIAF.

 

I add Rogers to that list. Once the Hockey strike hit they went apeshit over content and called the shots. i get s*** all over this board for supporting AA but i saw what he could do before doing the 180.

 

After years of having one of the worst farm systems in baseball AA turned that around and even with the gut of talent still has a decent system. Fire him now and what do we get? Another 5 years of a JP Ricarrdi type? Better the devil you know.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Considering that the hockey team is basically irrelevant from april to september, doesn't really quantify.

 

Oh no? Count how many times during those irrelevant months the Jays are ahead of the Leafs in the Sports section pages. I'd say less than a dozen.

 

California has how many baseball teams? Dodgers, A's, Giants, Angels, Padres, the current population of Canada is 36 million.

 

The team owns the sportnetwork channel which is broadcast throughout the whole country, and most Canadians consider the jays their team, from coast to coast. One of the few things Canadians share as a nation, besides having a dolt like harper as their leader.

 

Isn't it odd that we have a whole country of Jays fans getting regular TV broadcasts, yet the fans still know very little about the game?

[GeorgiaPeach]

The CBA has Toronto tied for 9th, with Philly and Boston for market size. They are a sufficiently large market.

 

I was close.

 

 

 

No, you can't "force" them, but you can convince them to pay more attention. They've done it before. It's their job. "This is hard" isn't an excuse. They have an entire country at their potential disposal.

 

And how you get this particular market to pay more attention is one of two ways. One is the correct way, the other isn't. Building a contender gets non-baseball fans to pay attention (right way). Signing or trading for a bunch of name players past their prime is a quick burst way of generating interest. (wrong way, unless the FO/owner cares more about attendance/TV Numbers over the short term than they do winning.)

[GeorgiaPeach]

I add Rogers to that list. Once the Hockey strike hit they went apeshit over content and called the shots. i get s*** all over this board for supporting AA but i saw what he could do before doing the 180.

 

After years of having one of the worst farm systems in baseball AA turned that around and even with the gut of talent still has a decent system. Fire him now and what do we get? Another 5 years of a JP Ricarrdi type? Better the devil you know.

 

Maybe Alex doesn't know how to go balls out and make a big free agent splash? One of his positive traits early on were the team friendly deals he inked current Jays to. And in having that trait I could see it as a negative trait to carry into free agent conversations, because you're dealing with a market of players who have 29 possible other suitors and the player may get a feeling Alex is trying to squeeze the guy to tight on money or years.

 

IMO he could've kept moving the organization along in the right direction with all his value moves he was making.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Markets are defined by population. The greater Toronto market is the 4th largest sporting market by population in North America. New York, LA and Chicago have 2 clubs each to divide fans. The Jays also draw on fans from across Canada. The Jays have lost a generation of fans, by not competing. If they actually made the playoffs the fan base would grow. We are not a baseball first market by any means with Hockey being number one, but look at the Raps. If we win, fans will come and revenues will grow. As it is the Jays have the highest average ticket price in the league. The Jays just need to build a winner and spending the money would make sense if it was allocated properly.

 

How can a potential fan base, be considered the fan base?

 

If you're not a fan, you're not a fan. I f***ing hate it when the Jays start doing well and all these non-Jays fans I know are all of a sudden trying to talk baseball. Don't trash the Jays and ridicule me for being a baseball fan when the Jays suck and then when they start winning its like they never stopped following the team from 92 & 93.

 

IMO, if you don't like baseball and only follow when the going is good, that person and everyone like them, cannot be considered part of the fan base.

[Flashman]

How can a potential fan base, be considered the fan base?

 

A fan base is dynamic; it can grow and shrink. Manchester United's current fan base is much bigger than it was 20 years ago.

 

If you're not a fan, you're not a fan. I f***ing hate it when the Jays start doing well and all these non-Jays fans I know are all of a sudden trying to talk baseball. Don't trash the Jays and ridicule me for being a baseball fan when the Jays suck and then when they start winning its like they never stopped following the team from 92 & 93.

 

This is the nature of sport. A nation will take the day off and root for a rugby team if they reach the World Cup final. But some casual fans can become hardcore fans - that's what growing the fan base is all about. It would be a poorly run franchise/team/club that didn't have marketers and planners to increase that base.

 

IMO, if you don't like baseball and only follow when the going is good, that person and everyone like them, cannot be considered part of the fan base.

 

That's the trick. If the team is doing well consistently, then the fan base will remain consistently big. The Yankees and Red Sox had drop-offs in decades past, while the Jays had more people going through the gates in the 90s than any other team.

 

And somewhat tangentially - if you are a hardcore fan of a sport, that's great. It represents a hobby as much as anything else. But there are a lot of people out there with jobs, families, friends, commitments, and other hobbies who just can't find the time to be as devoted to the sport as many of us are. The casual fan shouldn't be demonised - they should be understood. They play a huge part in making any franchise successful.

[skinny123]

Oh no? Count how many times during those irrelevant months the Jays are ahead of the Leafs in the Sports section pages. I'd say less than a dozen.

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't it odd that we have a whole country of Jays fans getting regular TV broadcasts, yet the fans still know very little about the game?

 

I have to strongly have to disagree with you here, the leafs are not ahead of the jays in the sports section during the summer, at times, weeks go by , especially in august where you don't hear anything at all about the leafs until they start training camp. There's no doubt about it, the jays own the summer months, leafs are nowhere to be seen after the playoffs(which they never make). The only time you'll hear about the leafs is for a couple of days leading up to and during the draft, and after july 1st anytime they have a major free agent signing. The hockey people on the fan and tsn radio take two months off, some of these guy you only hear on draft day, and a free agent signing, other than that, then go silent until training camp opens.

 

Which fans don't know anything about the game? There's a very educated fanbase of old expo fans in montreal that still follow baseball, they have minor league baseball in ottawa and calgary, the baseball fans, know and follow the game, know the game. The only competition baseball has in the summer, would be msl soccer, and the one month every four years they have the world cup. The cfl is non-existent in the east.

Edited April 28, 2014 by skinny123

[skinny123]

How can a potential fan base, be considered the fan base?

 

If you're not a fan, you're not a fan. I f***ing hate it when the Jays start doing well and all these non-Jays fans I know are all of a sudden trying to talk baseball. Don't trash the Jays and ridicule me for being a baseball fan when the Jays suck and then when they start winning its like they never stopped following the team from 92 & 93.

 

IMO, if you don't like baseball and only follow when the going is good, that person and everyone like them, cannot be considered part of the fan base.

 

You're missing the point, who cares why and how they became fans, it's revenue that goes to the team, wether it be in gate reciepts, tv revenue or merchandise, come on lol.