AA: Jays need to upgrade at the 5th starter and 2B spot

[kgm1]

Maybe Alex doesn't know how to go balls out and make a big free agent splash? One of his positive traits early on were the team friendly deals he inked current Jays to. And in having that trait I could see it as a negative trait to carry into free agent conversations, because you're dealing with a market of players who have 29 possible other suitors and the player may get a feeling Alex is trying to squeeze the guy to tight on money or years.

 

IMO he could've kept moving the organization along in the right direction with all his value moves he was making.

 

We will never know why he turned 180 degrees and went for the quick shot . Still no contracts are that bad now with the new money out there . Think how LAA , Detroit , Seattle and others are with their 10 year deals

[GeorgiaPeach]

A fan base is dynamic; it can grow and shrink. Manchester United's current fan base is much bigger than it was 20 years ago.

 

I agree that it can grow and shrink. But it really gets annoying when friends or co-workers who are definitely not baseball fans would be considered part of the fan base because they may have a flickering interest if the team starts winning and go to or watch games.

 

This is the nature of sport. A nation will take the day off and root for a rugby team if they reach the World Cup final.

 

Let's not go overboard. If I don't like the sport I don't waste my time watching, no matter who's playing or if its the pinnacle of the sport. It was sickening during the Olympics listening to people go on and on about the Olympics, but they've never played sports and rarely if ever talk about sports. So how are they anything if they show fake interest in what their watching? That to me, is NOT a fan.

 

 

But some casual fans can become hardcore fans - that's what growing the fan base is all about. It would be a poorly run franchise/team/club that didn't have marketers and planners to increase that base.

 

As I said before, winning consistently more is what would swell the Jays fanbase. You need a bunch of years strung together before casuals may turn into a hardcore fan. But what the Jays FO did in the Marlins & Dickey trades was trade the future and financial flexibility for years, for a 2-3 year window to "contend" with a let down to follow. So the casual fans they drew in over the course of the past year + are likely gone or will be gone due to last years collapse and the demise of what's on the field right now. Casual fans will not stick around to watch 30+ year olds decline to nothing with good farm pieces 4 years away.

 

There was nothing wrong with the path the Jays were on. But someone got impatient, thought they could luck their way to a playoff berth and ended f***ing up royally.

 

 

 

That's the trick. If the team is doing well consistently, then the fan base will remain consistently big. The Yankees and Red Sox had drop-offs in decades past, while the Jays had more people going through the gates in the 90s than any other team.

 

I'll take the Cards & Rays way of running an organization over what the Jays just tried pulling off.

 

And somewhat tangentially - if you are a hardcore fan of a sport, that's great. It represents a hobby as much as anything else. But there are a lot of people out there with jobs, families, friends, commitments, and other hobbies who just can't find the time to be as devoted to the sport as many of us are. The casual fan shouldn't be demonised - they should be understood. They play a huge part in making any franchise successful.

 

I agree casuals hold importance in providing noise and money to the team. As for demonising them.......I have no interest in talking baseball with friends or co-workers I know who aren't baseball fans, but start showing an interest when things have looked bright in the past. Because I know as quick as they've started to follow what's going on, it'll be just as quick they stop following when the Jays start losing.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You're missing the point, who cares why and how they became fans, it's revenue that goes to the team, wether it be in gate reciepts, tv revenue or merchandise, come on lol.

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You're right I don't care why they're at the game. They could buy a billion dollars worth of merchandise and still not know f*** all about baseball. But because they spent a shitload of money, they're a superfan.....that deserves a big LOL!!!!

[Flashman]

I agree that it can grow and shrink. But it really gets annoying when friends or co-workers who are definitely not baseball fans would be considered part of the fan base because they may have a flickering interest if the team starts winning and go to or watch games.

 

That's understandable. It is especially tough if you watch an unpopular sport, which could really do with the money and support, only to find an entire nation get behind a team if there's a shot at glory. But it is what it is. I'll admit that I tune into something like Andy Murray nailing the Olympic gold or Wimbledon championship, despite no interest in tennis; but I'd be peeved if tennis aficianados took umbrage at me for even engaging. Most of us are guilty of this to some degree.

 

 

Let's not go overboard. If I don't like the sport I don't waste my time watching, no matter who's playing or if its the pinnacle of the sport. It was sickening during the Olympics listening to people go on and on about the Olympics, but they've never played sports and rarely if ever talk about sports. So how are they anything if they show fake interest in what their watching? That to me, is NOT a fan.

 

Let's take the Olympics. Sport take-up in the UK dramatically increased after the London Olympics. It didn't just help make the nation fitter, it has also created new supporters of sports like judo and cycling. You don't make fans and champions without exposure to the sport in the first place.

 

 

As I said before, winning consistently more is what would swell the Jays fanbase. You need a bunch of years strung together before casuals may turn into a hardcore fan. But what the Jays FO did in the Marlins & Dickey trades was trade the future and financial flexibility for years, for a 2-3 year window to "contend" with a let down to follow. So the casual fans they drew in over the course of the past year + are likely gone or will be gone due to last years collapse and the demise of what's on the field right now. Casual fans will not stick around to watch 30+ year olds decline to nothing with good farm pieces 4 years away.

 

I agree. The strategy was short-sighted.

 

 

I'll take the Cards & Rays way of running an organization over what the Jays just tried pulling off.

 

Yep. Every time.

 

I agree casuals hold importance in providing noise and money to the team. As for demonising them.......I have no interest in talking baseball with friends or co-workers I know who aren't baseball fans, but start showing an interest when things have looked bright in the past. Because I know as quick as they've started to follow what's going on, it'll be just as quick they stop following when the Jays start losing.

 

You're hurting your own aims here. If casual fans come to you to start talking about baseball, then it is a great opportunity to educate and enlighten them about the nuances of the game. You can explain to them the joy of watching baseball even during the lean times. You get to be the authority. Some people learn about baseball (or any sport) through the internet and books and general self-teaching; but many learn the fundamentals from friends and family and other mentor figures.

[skinny123]

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You're right I don't care why they're at the game. They could buy a billion dollars worth of merchandise and still not know f*** all about baseball. But because they spent a shitload of money, they're a superfan.....that deserves a big LOL!!!!

 

You still don't get it.

[skinny123]

Source?

 

https://www.teammarketing.com/public/uploadedPDFs/2014%20mlb%20fci.pdf

 

The Red Sox and Yankees are always at the top, and typically by a very wide margin. MLB League Average is $27.93 and the average Jays ticket is $22.78. An average Red Sox ticket will cost $52.32.

 

I went to a yankee game, I bought a ticket behind the right field fence, I paid $58, that exact same seat location at the rogers was $27.

[skinny123]

You still don't get it.

 

In 1993 they were getting 4 million fans a year going to the games, I'm sure nobody gave a rats ass why they showed up, they had the highest payroll in the league. Rogers has come out and said that there's a direct correlation between attendance and the payroll, are you now understanding it a bit better, or do you want to screen every fan that walks in making sure they know what a sac fly is? If they start getting 30k plus fans to mid week games, they'll go out and pick up those arms that we need instead of relying on mcgowan and morrow, you want to nitpick about how much baseball knowledge a fan has?

 

That's like the preds nitpicking about how much hockey knowledge their new fans have, you have to introduce them to the game first, it takes years and patience to win fans over, you're not born a superfan, unless you have parents that forcefeed you with baseball from the day you're born.

[BlueJaysGirl]

I think, back in the day, companies could buy tickets and write them off easier than now, right? Some major tax loopholes have been closed, so I think a lot of ticket purchases were companies looking for tax breaks. Can anyone confirm that? Sort of before my time. Also, I am not a company and have no company tax awareness

[TheHurl]

I think, back in the day, companies could buy tickets and write them off easier than now, right? Some major tax loopholes have been closed, so I think a lot of ticket purchases were companies looking for tax breaks. Can anyone confirm that? Sort of before my time. Also, I am not a company and have no company tax awareness

 

Wasn't tax breaks...just that was the way people did business. Over the golf course, over expensive dinners, and over a game. It's just been scaled back so much in the corporate world (really since 2008). Golf courses are feeling the pinch as much or more than anyone.

Edited April 28, 2014 by TheHurl

[skinny123]

Wasn't tax breaks...just that was the way people did business. Over the golf course, over expensive dinners, and over a game. It's just been scaled back so much in the corporate world. Golf courses are feeling the pinch as much or more than anyone.

 

Back then going to a baseball game was in fashion, it was the place to be seen, believe it or not. I remember a couple of years after the strike, my friend's dad, gave me four free tickets, I went down to the game, stood outside for one hour, first I tried selling them for cost, that didn't work out, then I tried giving them away for free, no luck, in the end, I gave one ticket to the guy that plays the snare drum outside, and went in myself to a crowd of 12k.

Edited April 28, 2014 by skinny123

[o2cui2i]

If the team stops sucking people will come.

[TheHurl]

If the team stops sucking people will come.

 

people keep saying that but I don't believe that. Maybe if they win the World Series again I could see it...but if they make the playoffs this year, season tickets will go up a bit for sure. However, it will still take a 2012 type off-season splash to keep increasing sales. This goes to the arguments that is happening above about casuals vs. baseball fans. The Jays need media hype to sell tickets. NOT Sportsnet hype, U.S. hype. Or the opposite, we need to be winning and get no U.S. hype (like the Raptors right now) so they can sell the "we'll show them how great of fans we have" angle. Marketing in Toronto is simple...the issue is that what it takes to market the team probably isn't a good winning model.

[KingKat]

people keep saying that but I don't believe that. Maybe if they win the World Series again I could see it...but if they make the playoffs this year, season tickets will go up a bit for sure. However, it will still take a 2012 type off-season splash to keep increasing sales. This goes to the arguments that is happening above about casuals vs. baseball fans. The Jays need media hype to sell tickets. NOT Sportsnet hype, U.S. hype. Or the opposite, we need to be winning and get no U.S. hype (like the Raptors right now) so they can sell the "we'll show them how great of fans we have" angle. Marketing in Toronto is simple...the issue is that what it takes to market the team probably isn't a good winning model.

 

I can understand why you say the media hype model isn't a good winning model especially given recent events but wouldn't the anti-hype, Raptors style model be a great model?

[TheHurl]

I can understand why you say the media hype model isn't a good winning model especially given recent events but wouldn't the anti-hype, Raptors style model be a great model?

 

I suppose it is...just not one you have any control over. Raps probably will get 2 or 3 good years out of being the red-headed step child which in the world of sports is pretty good.

[skinny123]

If they had the lineup from '93, the place would be full, it's called baseball fever.

[G-Snarls]

If the team stops sucking people will come.

 

Yes buy they also would get noticeable boosts if they made some impact signings like a Tanaka in the off season. Right now expecting the team to contend without doing anything else and then expecting fans to follow seems doomed to fail.

[G-Snarls]

And I'm not saying teams should make PR signings just to appease the fans. I'm saying make impaxtful signings that make baseball sense in order to the team better and the fans will be more excited. This team's under use of the free agent market to fill.glaring holes is ridiculous. Edited April 28, 2014 by G-Snarls

[KingKat]

I suppose it is...just not one you have any control over.

 

True. Creating hype through spending is easy. Winning without hype takes discipline. The Jays tried it with Ricciardi and although he wasn't flat out incompetent, he wasn't nearly good enough to pull it off. He bet heavily on questionable guys like Miguel Batista and Russ Adams and when that didn't work out very well he went the spend route. As maligned at it continues to be, he got a good return on his big go for it offseason (Glaus, Burnett, Ryan). If he had built a better core to begin with, the Jays would have made the post-season no problem instead of falling just short. The story of AA is similar except that he had a lot more in place when he decided to go the spend route but he bungled it pretty badly by giving up too much value in trades (Escobar, Alvarez, Aviles, Gomes, D'Arnaud, Syndergaard and a f*** load of payroll flexibility and prospect capital).

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

If they had the lineup from '93, the place would be full, it's called baseball fever.

 

Baseball was very popular from 1985 forward ( maybe 1983 forward, can't remember ), but Exhibition Stadium was in a bad location and a crappy place to be in bad weather. We don't need the '93 lineup to attract fans. Even in 1983 they were in a pennant race until the bullpen imploded. 1990-1993 was crazy popular though, sold out well in advance most games, if you were lucky you could get back ten rows in the 500 section. I remember sitting two rows from the top on one of the worst sections and the slant on those stairs was absurd. At some point you couldn't even get those seats, a month in advance you could book buffet at Windows restaurant that's it.

[skinny123]

Baseball was very popular from 1985 forward ( maybe 1983 forward, can't remember ), but Exhibition Stadium was in a bad location and a crappy place to be in bad weather. We don't need the '93 lineup to attract fans. Even in 1983 they were in a pennant race until the bullpen imploded. 1990-1993 was crazy popular though, sold out well in advance most games, if you were lucky you could get back ten rows in the 500 section. I remember sitting two rows from the top on one of the worst sections and the slant on those stairs was absurd. At some point you couldn't even get those seats, a month in advance you could book buffet at Windows restaurant that's it.

 

'83-'90 were golden years for baseball in toronto, this was the growing curb. I remember games at the ex getting 28-35k for mid week games, and 38-43k for the weekends. The weather was bad in april and september because it was so close to the lake, you had to dress warm. I remember getting the grandstand seats from dominion for $1, you would get free admission in the ex grounds and spend the whole day there.

 

Baseball definitely peaked when the move was made to the skydome(rogers centre), up to those two WS, the strike absolutely killed everything. They also stripped the roster one by one, from devo to carter to alomar, thinking that fans would continue to fill the seats, a total miscalculation. Meanwhile you had teams like the braves that kept going, the yanks and red sox got into the game, and the jays were done in this town, as far as having that type of elite status. To anyone that wants to agrue about hockey being #1 here, the leafs at that time had a great team with gilmour and clarke, they made it to the CF two years in a row.

Edited April 28, 2014 by skinny123

[TheHurl]

If they had the lineup from '93, the place would be full, it's called baseball fever.

 

The stadium was a huge factor then too. Last year's off season had more hype than those teams IMO. There are probably more people proudly wearing Jays merchandise these days. There are a few factors that have changed...including the number of games that are on TV. I just don't think you can throw together a winning team and make the Rogers Centre "The Place to Be" again. Then there is the fact that I don't think this F.O. has any chance of putting together a winning team so for the next few years chances are we'll never know.

[TheHurl]

Meanwhile you had teams like the braves that kept going, the yanks and red sox got into the game, and the jays were done in this town, as far as having that type of elite status.

 

Braves had a new stadium too though. Despite playoffs after playoffs...by the 5th season in Turner Field attendance was right back to their first couple of seasons winning numbers. Still good attendance but fans that come to baseball games are pretty finicky.

 

How many years of the Playoffs did it take for the Yankees to get to 1st in Attendance? I don't even think they hit top 5 after winning the world series in 96'. One year of winning will not sell out the Jays for next year. I'm certain of that.

[skinny123]

The stadium was a huge factor then too. Last year's off season had more hype than those teams IMO. There are probably more people proudly wearing Jays merchandise these days. There are a few factors that have changed...including the number of games that are on TV. I just don't think you can throw together a winning team and make the Rogers Centre "The Place to Be" again. Then there is the fact that I don't think this F.O. has any chance of putting together a winning team so for the next few years chances are we'll never know.

 

Merchandise is a lot bigger these days, that's only because they've prefected the marketing and distribution of it, a lot more effective and more professionally managed. Every single game is on tv, there's a bigger tv audience and more revenue coming in from that area. I'm sure there's a lot of fans that don't see the point most nights to go down when they could just watch it on tv.

 

As far as bringing back the days of old, "the place to be", this will never be achieved without a first place finish, and maybe you're right, it has to be for two or three years in a row, but we may never know.

[skinny123]

Braves had a new stadium too though. Despite playoffs after playoffs...by the 5th season in Turner Field attendance was right back to their first couple of seasons winning numbers. Still good attendance but fans that come to baseball games are pretty finicky.

 

How many years of the Playoffs did it take for the Yankees to get to 1st in Attendance? I don't even think they hit top 5 after winning the world series in 96'. One year of winning will not sell out the Jays for next year. I'm certain of that.

 

Braves had a new stadium, but rogerscentre was only 5 years old at the time, maybe a world series won't sell out the games, but from a business standpoint, the extra tv revenues would make up for the lack of seats in the stands.

[TheHurl]

Braves had a new stadium, but rogerscentre was only 5 years old at the time, maybe a world series won't sell out the games, but from a business standpoint, the extra tv revenues would make up for the lack of seats in the stands.

 

even a legitimate contention would probably increase revenue. But without contention you now have a team that is going to return to 2012 ratings, return to 2012 attendance and cost you $54M more. When you bank on way to increase revenue...don't make it winning, cause building a winning baseball team isn't easy to do. This was my thought process in November 2012 and still is today.

 

I just think people that say build a winner and the people will come don't look at things from a business or risk stand point.

[KingKat]

2003 was the first year they were 1st in the majors in attendance (in that era).

 

In 1993, they were 14th (2nd in AL East)

1994, 16th (strike year, best record in AL).

1995, 14th. (wildcard)

1996, 11th. (WS win)

1997, 10th. (wildcard)

1998, 8th. (WS win)

1999, 4th. (WS win)

2000, 8th. (WS win)

2001, 3rd. (WS loss)

2002, 2nd. (DS loss)

2003, 1st. (WS loss)

 

Wow. That's pretty sobering.

[o2cui2i]

Yes buy they also would get noticeable boosts if they made some impact signings like a Tanaka in the off season. Right now expecting the team to contend without doing anything else and then expecting fans to follow seems doomed to fail.

 

casual fans dont know the difference and believe whatever hype they are fed by FO and Rogers' homers. The fans who know anything about baseball would know and despise moves for the sake of moves. I think the team lacks any direction at all. I think Beeston sent a message last year and AA did what he was told and this year ownership sent a different message and now AA doesn't know whether to s*** or get off the toilet.

 

AA has been in a holding pattern waiting for his s*** to drop since the Mets trade. I think he had a plan of building slowly and was put off his course and now he's lost in between

[skinny123]

even a legitimate contention would probably increase revenue. But without contention you now have a team that is going to return to 2012 ratings, return to 2012 attendance and cost you $54M more. When you bank on way to increase revenue...don't make it winning, cause building a winning baseball team isn't easy to do. This was my thought process in November 2012 and still is today.

 

I just think people that say build a winner and the people will come don't look at things from a business or risk stand point.

 

Let's not forget the extra revenue each team get's this year and the next 10 with that monster tv deal in the states last year. This would offset some of the drop off you might see this year, they'll never contend anyway if the payroll is less than 100M, it's a lot more difficult to copy the rays model than the yankees or red sox.

[skinny123]

casual fans dont know the difference and believe whatever hype they are fed by FO and Rogers' homers. The fans who know anything about baseball would know and despise moves for the sake of moves. I think the team lacks any direction at all. I think Beeston sent a message last year and AA did what he was told and this year ownership sent a different message and now AA doesn't know whether to s*** or get off the toilet.

 

AA has been in a holding pattern waiting for his s*** to drop since the Mets trade. I think he had a plan of building slowly and was put off his course and now he's lost in between

 

The team's run by a corporation, that's the biggest problem, too many chiefs in the boardroom, it's always a lot more effective to get things done when there's a single owner with a dog in the fight.

[o2cui2i]

The team's run by a corporation, that's the biggest problem, too many chiefs in the boardroom, it's always a lot more effective to get things done when there's a single owner with a dog in the fight.

 

an owner who actually knew what sport the team was playing and cared about winning would be nice. We have an ownership who wants profits before everything, where winning can be an acceptable byproduct, but is not an important goal.