AA: Jays need to upgrade at the 5th starter and 2B spot

[GeorgiaPeach]

You're hurting your own aims here. If casual fans come to you to start talking about baseball, then it is a great opportunity to educate and enlighten them about the nuances of the game. You can explain to them the joy of watching baseball even during the lean times. You get to be the authority. Some people learn about baseball (or any sport) through the internet and books and general self-teaching; but many learn the fundamentals from friends and family and other mentor figures.

 

I'd tend to think most people in their mid 30's & 40's have had enough time to like or dislike baseball. I don't mind talking about specific, unique instances or things like the catcher blocking the plate rule change, but by no means am I trying to lure more fans to the game.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You still don't get it.

 

You're talking about an always-changing group of people who have a fleeting interest in a game I love. I don't care to cheer with them or get to know them. That's probably why I don't get them.

[skinny123]

You're talking about an always-changing group of people who have a fleeting interest in a game I love. I don't care to cheer with them or get to know them. That's probably why I don't get them.

 

I understand where you're coming from , from a fan's perspective, I'm the same way, that's why I won't go to a sportsbar to watch a playoff game (leafs,raptors,jays), I have no respect for these people. The point is, money is money, it doesn't matter who its coming from, casual fan, die hard, it's all about numbers from a profit perspective.

[TheHurl]

I understand where you're coming from , from a fan's perspective, I'm the same way, that's why I won't go to a sportsbar to watch a playoff game (leafs,raptors,jays), I have no respect for these people. The point is, money is money, it doesn't matter who its coming from, casual fan, die hard, it's all about numbers from a profit perspective.

 

and the casual fan is much easier to read and manipulate. It's going to take a lot more to get me to be a fan of this team again, in comparison to Joe Average that will be impressed by some clown dancing in the dugout and some former big name that everyone knows.

 

Mind you, I've gone to 6 games this year already so why would they market to a baseball fan.

[GoldBull]

2003 was the first year they were 1st in the majors in attendance (in that era).

 

Prior to 1993, they were a pretty bad ballclub for a few years. In 1992, they were 4th (out of 7) in the division, with 78 wins. They were 19th in attendance that year. They hadn't made the playoffs since 1981 (harder to do back then). From 1987 to 1992, they were either sub-.500 or finished no higher than 4th in their 7 team division.

 

In 1993, they were 14th in attendance (season success was 2nd in AL East)

1994, 16th (strike year, best record in AL).

1995, 14th. (wildcard)

1996, 11th. (WS win)

1997, 10th. (wildcard)

1998, 8th. (WS win)

1999, 4th. (WS win)

2000, 8th. (WS win)

2001, 3rd. (WS loss)

2002, 2nd. (DS loss)

2003, 1st. (WS loss)

 

I think that this goes to show that (obviously) sustainable winning will lead to increased ticket sales and revenue. The problem is that rather than try to build a strong farm to develop a core of players, Rogers decided to pull the trigger and try for a 1-3 year window. To me, it looks like it'll be a rebuild in '16 or '17 that will drive the fans away again.

[o2cui2i]

I think that this goes to show that (obviously) sustainable winning will lead to increased ticket sales and revenue. The problem is that rather than try to build a strong farm to develop a core of players, Rogers decided to pull the trigger and try for a 1-3 year window. To me, it looks like it'll be a rebuild in '16 or '17 that will drive the fans away again.

 

I doubt Rogers has much of an idea of how things are run. I'd be pointing the finger at Beeston. Beeston pitches his ideas and Rogers crunches numbers. I doubt AA has much say. That would be the only reason to hire the dumb ass from your video room as GM. Beeston needed someone he can tell what to do without fightback

[GoldBull]

I doubt Rogers has much of an idea of how things are run. I'd be pointing the finger at Beeston. Beeston pitches his ideas and Rogers crunches numbers. I doubt AA has much say. That would be the only reason to hire the dumb ass from your video room as GM. Beeston needed someone he can tell what to do without fightback

 

I suppose that the other factor in the equation is job security. While the patient, drawn out approach is probably more sustainable, unless you can pitch your idea well enough, it's more likely to get you fired.

 

I think that AA was under the gun from an impatient Beeston/Rogers to put a winning product on the field, and at the time, he did what he could to make his boss happy...I don't think it has much to do with Beesten needing a bitch to boss around though...

[xposbrad]

Yeah, I even amended it a bit to more closely highlight the rather long run of lack of success leading up to that, which helped create apathy in the fanbase.

 

Each case is different, and there are different circumstances that can spur on, or diminish, fan interest more quickly ... but when you grind a fan base to expecting a loser over a period of time (no playoffs since 1981), they can take a long time to warm back up to you, fully.

 

That's why I don't think it's a bad idea to incorporate some "shock and awe" in the form of name players and the such, to accompany winning, to spur on fan interest. It can help jumpstart interest. It just needs to be done smartly, and with a team that is truly in a position to contend, and has the resources (money and personnel) to cope with trades, other acquisitions and added payroll. The Jays weren't there. And they made crappy moves.

 

That`s an understatement.

[skinny123]

I think that this goes to show that (obviously) sustainable winning will lead to increased ticket sales and revenue. The problem is that rather than try to build a strong farm to develop a core of players, Rogers decided to pull the trigger and try for a 1-3 year window. To me, it looks like it'll be a rebuild in '16 or '17 that will drive the fans away again.

 

The bronx was never a safe place to go watch a game, especially late at night after the game, they started to make efforts to put more police there during games, and fans started to feel safe to go there again.

[skinny123]

2003 was the first year they were 1st in the majors in attendance (in that era).

 

Prior to 1993, they were a pretty bad ballclub for a few years. In 1992, they were 4th (out of 7) in the division, with 78 wins. They were 19th in attendance that year. They hadn't made the playoffs since 1981 (harder to do back then). From 1987 to 1992, they were either sub-.500 or finished no higher than 4th in their 7 team division.

 

In 1993, they were 14th in attendance (season success was 2nd in AL East)

1994, 16th (strike year, best record in AL).

1995, 14th. (wildcard)

1996, 11th. (WS win)

1997, 10th. (wildcard)

1998, 8th. (WS win)

1999, 4th. (WS win)

2000, 8th. (WS win)

2001, 3rd. (WS loss)

2002, 2nd. (DS loss)

2003, 1st. (WS loss)

 

This is the post what my last post was meant for, the bronx and all of new york experienced a dramatic decrease in their crime rate during these years.

[The_DH]

Actually it's a bit different than that. In Toronto it's a very small group of people who follow or understand baseball. They're more inclined to discuss who the 4th line left winger for the Leafs will be than realize Adam Lind can't play 3b. I remember having a discussion with somebody who thought Joe Carter should start at 3b during the world series because it wasn't that hard.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I suppose that the other factor in the equation is job security. While the patient, drawn out approach is probably more sustainable, unless you can pitch your idea well enough, it's more likely to get you fired.

 

I think that AA was under the gun from an impatient Beeston/Rogers to put a winning product on the field, and at the time, he did what he could to make his boss happy...I don't think it has much to do with Beesten needing a bitch to boss around though...

 

Just goes to show you how little the higher-ups are aware of what's happening, could happen on the field. Top 5 farm.....gut it. We're going after some wily vets. We want guys with stories behind them (no pun intended) we can pitch and sell to the fans.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You're talking about cheering on a sports team (95%+ of the participants of which couldn't give a flying fig about you, except that you let them live very comfortably). Stop trying to make it some kind of class warfare, or some kind of opportunity to make yourself feel superior about ... uh ... cheering. You're rooting for someone else you have no real ties to, to do well at a game. "I'm better at that than you are because I'm more dedicated" is a silly viewpoint. Who gives a poo?

 

Wow, this fascination with casual fans has really grown on you.

 

It's an opportunity to be goofy with folks who have a common interest, whether that's as dedicated as you, or more fleeting.

Have fun with it. Otherwise, it's just sad.

 

Maybe for you and others that feel the need to connect.

[skinny123]

Actually it's a bit different than that. In Toronto it's a very small group of people who follow or understand baseball. They're more inclined to discuss who the 4th line left winger for the Leafs will be than realize Adam Lind can't play 3b. I remember having a discussion with somebody who thought Joe Carter should start at 3b during the world series because it wasn't that hard.

 

It's not just about toronto, it's also about all the small towns around where people will drive up to two hours to go watch a game on the weekend. This will always be a hockey town, nothing will change that, but if anything it's already been proved that baseball can work.

[Ziggyy108]

Sign Drew. Bring up Stroman. Bring up Gose.

 

McGowan to bullpen. Rogers DFA. Sierra DFA.

[G-Snarls]

Sign Drew. Bring up Stroman. Bring up Gose.

 

McGowan to bullpen. Rogers DFA. Sierra DFA.

 

Yes to 5/6

 

I still want to keep Rogers. Or trade him.

[BlueJaysGirl]

Sign Drew. Bring up Stroman. Bring up Gose.

 

McGowan to bullpen. Rogers DFA. Sierra DFA.

 

I agree with everything, but I would DFA Redmond. I think Rogers has a higher ceiling.

 

EDIT: Hah- just read G-Snarls post. Great minds think alike

[Convo]

I agree with everything, but I would DFA Redmond. I think Rogers has a higher ceiling.

 

EDIT: Hah- just read G-Snarls post. Great minds think alike

 

'Higher ceiling'...... unreachable

[skinny123]

Oliver retired, and Janssen on the DL, we're seeing santos true colours.

[z3r0s]

I imagine Rickie Weeks is still available for very little. He hasn't hit much this year, but I would chalk that up to not playing consistently (almost at all).

 

I still think that's the best answer at 2B. I'd have to think it would cost almost nothing and the reward is certainly there if things click.

 

I guess AA doesn't like those low risk-high reward types.

[Angrioter]

I imagine Rickie Weeks is still available for very little. He hasn't hit much this year, but I would chalk that up to not playing consistently (almost at all).

 

I still think that's the best answer at 2B. I'd have to think it would cost almost nothing and the reward is certainly there if things click.

 

I guess AA doesn't like those low risk-high reward types.

 

Weeks can't hit or catch the ball.

[G-Snarls]

I agree with everything, but I would DFA Redmond. I think Rogers has a higher ceiling.

 

EDIT: Hah- just read G-Snarls post. Great minds think alike

 

Medical training and work enhance the powers of observation.

[G-Snarls]

Surely to God some team would want a package including some 2 among Redmond/Rogers/McGowan/Happ + a prospect

 

I'd like to keep them all as depth but none have options and we can't carry them all in the bullpen long term

 

Untenable

[TheHurl]

Serious question, do you really think AA is a smart GM? I think he's done some real bad trades, he traded doc, the jays best all-time pitcher, and as of today, they have nothing to show for it, no return at all. He traded napoli away for francisco after four days, he traded aviles and gomes for esmil rogerscentre(hitter friendly).

 

Sorry I missed this. I don't think so at all. I think he listens to a bunch of dinosaurs and has no clue how to build a system from the top down. or from the bottom up. I'm a value guy, he looked like he was at one time...but it seems like he just doesn't have a clue.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I imagine Rickie Weeks is still available for very little. He hasn't hit much this year, but I would chalk that up to not playing consistently (almost at all).

 

I still think that's the best answer at 2B. I'd have to think it would cost almost nothing and the reward is certainly there if things click.

 

I guess AA doesn't like those low risk-high reward types.

 

Well, Weeks was bad last year. Was maybe a 2nd tier 2B in 2012 and is brutal this year. All at a measly cost of 11m plus whatever we give up.

 

Sounds like a phenomenal deal to me.

[KingKat]

Well, Weeks was bad last year. Was maybe a 2nd tier 2B in 2012 and is brutal this year. All at a measly cost of 11m plus whatever we give up.

 

Sounds like a phenomenal deal to me.

 

The only way you can even entertain a Weeks deal is if Romero is going the other way.

[The_DH]

Romero might make sense for us, not sure how Weeks will be on turf. Beneficio 2.0?

[z3r0s]

Well, Weeks was bad last year. Was maybe a 2nd tier 2B in 2012 and is brutal this year. All at a measly cost of 11m plus whatever we give up.

 

Sounds like a phenomenal deal to me.

 

 

Weeks went from being a consistently ok defender and pretty good batter to a marginal bat and a bad defender between 2011 and 2012. I'm not saying we trade anything useful for him. We could probably get him for virtually free depending on what kind of money we take on (may not even be the full amount)

 

Change of scenery seems to be a thing. If you don't get the results, there is no buyout on the option.