White Sox (Houser) vs Blue Jays (Bassitt): 6/22/25, 1:37pm

[Doubleplay21]

Hoffman has 4 blown saves. 6 more blown saves would make 10.

That is the number that takes him out of the closer role forever.

[mphenhef]

24 minutes ago, Doubleplay21 said:

Hoffman has 4 blown saves. 6 more blown saves would make 10.

That is the number that takes him out of the closer role forever.

People on this board hated Romano when he was converting saves at a nearly 90% rate for years going on about how he wasn't dominant.  I can't imagine how they feel about Hoffman right now.

[BB17]

1 hour ago, jaysblue said:

Wasn't one of the Raptors strengths in 2019 the depth they had? Their second unit was one of the best in the game. Yes they had a superstar in Kawhi, but a lot of their role players played important roles. As well, defensively the team was much superior to the previous DeRozan/Lowry teams. 

That Finals run Kawhi completely carried them in rounds 2/3. There was stretches in those games against Philly where literally no one could score other than Kawhi. IIRC Nurse was running like an 8 man rotation in some games because guys like Powell weren’t even playable based on how they were performing.

[Brownie19]

2 hours ago, jaysblue said:

Wasn't one of the Raptors strengths in 2019 the depth they had? Their second unit was one of the best in the game. Yes they had a superstar in Kawhi, but a lot of their role players played important roles. As well, defensively the team was much superior to the previous DeRozan/Lowry teams. 

100% their depth made a HUGE difference.  That's why you see all these "super teams" struggling to win - no depth.  That analogy isn't the best.

[Brownie19]

9 hours ago, jaysblue said:

You seem like in a pissy mood today.

A lot could happen from now until these guys are activated. Injuries, setbacks in rehabs etc. You can't just say "oh we're getting Varsho, Santander, Mad Max, and Yimi back, so problem solved!" Roster still needs improvements even with those guys back. 

I obviously understand that.  But I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a healthy Varsho, Santander and Yimi to fill some holes in the current roster and be significant contributors on this team.  Max and Manoah are much less of a sure thing, but it is reassuring to know we're going to have a couple of internal options to help this team.

I certainly don't think the team needs to rush out and trade for another CFer, power corner OFer and setup man right now - do you?

The most glaring need right now is a top of the rotation starter.

[CheeseHead]

1 hour ago, Doubleplay21 said:

Hoffman has 4 blown saves. 6 more blown saves would make 10.

That is the number that takes him out of the closer role forever.

He's been in trouble and looked unconvincing in some of the converted saves as well. I would remove him from the role immediately. Can't afford to be giving these games away.

[Augustsem]

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[Masterbather]

4 hours ago, jaysblue said:

Wasn't one of the Raptors strengths in 2019 the depth they had? Their second unit was one of the best in the game. Yes they had a superstar in Kawhi, but a lot of their role players played important roles. As well, defensively the team was much superior to the previous DeRozan/Lowry teams. 

I never said they didn't have depth, the point was at the end of the day they couldn't win without a superstar. Besides, in the playoffs they were times where their depth didn't come through, but he did.

[G-Snarls]

4 hours ago, jaysblue said:

Wasn't one of the Raptors strengths in 2019 the depth they had? Their second unit was one of the best in the game. Yes they had a superstar in Kawhi, but a lot of their role players played important roles. As well, defensively the team was much superior to the previous DeRozan/Lowry teams. 

And OTOH of course Vince Carter never won a championship

[max silver]

19 hours ago, Jays24 said:

This is all a cover... we all clearly saw Schneider go up to Bassitt to say hes done.  

You have it backwards. It came out after the game that Bassitt told Schneider that he was done for the day.

[Jays24]

51 minutes ago, max silver said:

You have it backwards. It came out after the game that Bassitt told Schneider that he was done for the day.

I know... I was just messing around because on TV it showed Schneider go up to Bassitt where it was assumed he was telling him he was done.  

[jaysblue]

7 hours ago, Brownie19 said:

I obviously understand that.  But I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a healthy Varsho, Santander and Yimi to fill some holes in the current roster and be significant contributors on this team.  Max and Manoah are much less of a sure thing, but it is reassuring to know we're going to have a couple of internal options to help this team.

I certainly don't think the team needs to rush out and trade for another CFer, power corner OFer and setup man right now - do you?

The most glaring need right now is a top of the rotation starter.

Yeah getting those guys back definitely will be welcomed additions. 

The one glaring hole is the top of the rotation. Pretty much Berrios, Gausman and Bassitt are all No. 3 starters right now. Going to be tough however since there aren't really many options available other than Freddy Peralta. Other guys like Alcantara, Kelly, and Gallen come with question marks. 

[Brownie19]

12 minutes ago, jaysblue said:

Yeah getting those guys back definitely will be welcomed additions. 

The one glaring hole is the top of the rotation. Pretty much Berrios, Gausman and Bassitt are all No. 3 starters right now. Going to be tough however since there aren't really many options available other than Freddy Peralta. Other guys like Alcantara, Kelly, and Gallen come with question marks. 

Now that Sale is hurt, I doubt any true ace is moved (even if AA said he wouldn't move him).  I think you still try and add and hope that a chance of scenery and/or a playoff run sparks a hot streak from one of the guys you mentioned.  

Given the Jays current situation, adding someone with some control would be ideal (and costly), but there's really no guarantee they'll be an "upgrade" over Gaus/Berrios/Bassitt.

But we do need to remember the following pitchers started game in the World Series last year: Luis Gil, Carlos Roden, Clarke Schmidt, Walker Buehler, Ben Casparius.  LA also had Flaherty and Yamamoto and of course NY had Cole.  Yamamoto and Cole are aces, but Flaherty isn't.

in 2023: Andrew Heaney, Jordan Montgomery, Max Scherzer, Joe Mantiply, Brandon Pfaadt and Merrill Kelly all started WS games.  Texas had Eovaldi and Arizona had Gallen as their "top pitchers" that year.  Neither were aces.

Aces certainly help.  I'd love one!  But teams are winning the WS without Randy Johnson & Curt Schilling at the top of their rotation.  IMO, adding another solid #2/#3 to Gausman/Bassitt/Berrios/Max/Manoah will give us a shot to go deep in the playoffs.  It's really about getting them firing on all cylinders at the right time.

 

[max silver]

17 minutes ago, Brownie19 said:

Now that Sale is hurt, I doubt any true ace is moved (even if AA said he wouldn't move him).  I think you still try and add and hope that a chance of scenery and/or a playoff run sparks a hot streak from one of the guys you mentioned.  

Given the Jays current situation, adding someone with some control would be ideal (and costly), but there's really no guarantee they'll be an "upgrade" over Gaus/Berrios/Bassitt.

But we do need to remember the following pitchers started game in the World Series last year: Luis Gil, Carlos Roden, Clarke Schmidt, Walker Buehler, Ben Casparius.  LA also had Flaherty and Yamamoto and of course NY had Cole.  Yamamoto and Cole are aces, but Flaherty isn't.

in 2023: Andrew Heaney, Jordan Montgomery, Max Scherzer, Joe Mantiply, Brandon Pfaadt and Merrill Kelly all started WS games.  Texas had Eovaldi and Arizona had Gallen as their "top pitchers" that year.  Neither were aces.

Aces certainly help.  I'd love one!  But teams are winning the WS without Randy Johnson & Curt Schilling at the top of their rotation.  IMO, adding another solid #2/#3 to Gausman/Bassitt/Berrios/Max/Manoah will give us a shot to go deep in the playoffs.  It's really about getting them firing on all cylinders at the right time.

 

Aces aren't quite as important in the playoffs as they used to be given the birth of the super pens that largely started with the mid 2010's era Kansas City Royals. Starters aren't allowed to go deep nearly as often as they used to be even when in cruise control, and with the extra built in days between games this allows the managers to really lean on their relievers to produce outs like never before. 

[Brownie19]

54 minutes ago, max silver said:

Aces aren't quite as important in the playoffs as they used to be given the birth of the super pens that largely started with the mid 2010's era Kansas City Royals. Starters aren't allowed to go deep nearly as often as they used to be even when in cruise control, and with the extra built in days between games this allows the managers to really lean on their relievers to produce outs like never before. 

I think the reality is there are different ways to build a winning team.  The 2019 Nationals leaned on their starters so much that Strasburg and Corbin essentially died winning that championship.

There's no single blue print on how to do this - and that's the beauty of it.

[glory]

5 hours ago, max silver said:

Aces aren't quite as important in the playoffs as they used to be given the birth of the super pens that largely started with the mid 2010's era Kansas City Royals. Starters aren't allowed to go deep nearly as often as they used to be even when in cruise control, and with the extra built in days between games this allows the managers to really lean on their relievers to produce outs like never before. 

Given the way Schneider uses the pen (combined with Hoffman being unreliable recently) you could certainly make the case that adding at least 1 more elite pen arm coupled with a #3-4 SP might be a reasonable backup plan in the likely event that a top of the rotation starter is not acquired. I mean, 2003 Roy Halladay probably would have thrown 180 innings if Schneider was managing him. He just likes using the pen way too much. In the absence of an ace, having a rotation that is good enough to get you through 162 and then hoping an elite pen helps advance you through playoff rounds (or at least win a damn game) is probably more realistic for this team. 

Obviously though an ace is the preferred option. 

[Masterbather]

9 hours ago, Brownie19 said:

I think the reality is there are different ways to build a winning team.  The 2019 Nationals leaned on their starters so much that Strasburg and Corbin essentially died winning that championship.

There's no single blue print on how to do this - and that's the beauty of it.

Yeah, but I'll take my chances with ace pitchers any day of the week.