Jays Acquiring Andres Gimenez

[Terminator]

I assume all you Joc (Pederson) Sniffers (see what I did there?) will love this move as it frees up the DH spot to add a DH with some power instead of Horwitz.

[Abomination]

Steamer600

 

Horwitz - 2.2 fWAR

Gimenez - 3.0 fWAR

 

I know Gimenez has that one monster season, and Toronto is probably projecting Gimenez to be a bit better than that, but a) I don't trust Toronto's evaluation of hitters, and We're talking about a $93M commitment for Gimenez while Horwitz will make the minimum for two more years.

 

I really don't like this deal.

 

We could have had:

 

Horwitz

Josh Rojas (~4M)

Kirby Yates/David Robertson (12M)

$77M

 

but instead we have Andres Gimenez

 

That Steamer comp also projects the defense at very significantly below where it has been the last 3 years. If he actually hits the projected offensive numbers, he probably puts up 4+ WAR. I like Horwitz, but he's also 27 and has played a little over half a season. It's entirely possible the league adjusts and he struggles like Schneider did last year.

[BTS]

I assume all you Joc (Pederson) Sniffers (see what I did there?) will love this move as it frees up the DH spot to add a DH with some power instead of Horwitz.

 

Seems like that ship has probably sailed. If they sign Burnes or Pivetta they're up over 251M in luxury tax hit. Would they go into the 260s?

[Jays24]

Seems like that ship has probably sailed. If they sign Burnes or Pivetta they're up over 251M in luxury tax hit. Would they go into the 260s?

 

Problem is that they need Joc AND another bat in the top of the order (Teo/Santander).

[Brownie19]

I will reserve judgment on this trade assuming we will still get 2 impactful bats in addition to keeping Bo/Vlad... anything less then Atkins can go f*** off.

 

In all likelihood, we may need to replace the offense Bo and Horwitz were projected to provide, plus add more offense. No sense in waiting - you know Atkins will f*** this up.

[tazsub3]

What’s worst is the thought we let go a local Canadian who loved the team and is one of the best in baseball ,,,, all for mediocrity

[Terminator]

Seems like that ship has probably sailed. If they sign Burnes or Pivetta they're up over 251M in luxury tax hit. Would they go into the 260s?

 

Yeah I could definitely see them doing that. The next apron is 261. I could see them going over it a little bit.

[Brownie19]

Or you could sign Edman for 5/70

 

Edman is 4 years older.

 

The reality is we're back to the point where nobody wants to sign in Toronto, so we can't just "go sign Edman for 5/70".

[Barrelsandbombs]

We also gave up another player so youre underselling the trade lol

 

Nick Mitchell isn't in their system yet so I think he counts as a 0 here.

 

[Brownie19]

Problem is that they need Joc AND another bat in the top of the order (Teo/Santander).

 

It's hilarious that people question the addition of someone projected for 3.1 WAR season, but actually want us to sign Santander (probably for 4-5 years $100-$120M) to add his projected 2.5 WAR (119 wRC+ bat).

[Brownie19]

I assume all you Joc (Pederson) Sniffers (see what I did there?) will love this move as it frees up the DH spot to add a DH with some power instead of Horwitz.

 

Justin Turner's available still isn't he?

[BTS]

It's hilarious that people question the addition of someone projected for 3.1 WAR season, but actually want us to sign Santander (probably for 4-5 years $100-$120M) to add his projected 2.5 WAR (119 wRC+ bat).

 

I don't want Santander, but teams don't usually pay sticker price for 2B defense WAR. I could see preferring Santander + Horwitz to Gimenez.

[Brownie19]

The funny thing is Otto Lopez last year wasn't that different from Giminez and the Jays let him go for nothing.

 

Yeah - those f***ing morons couldn't see thru the 65 wRC+ production he was providing in AAA to see he was actually a 2.5 WAR player.

[MikeM3]

Edman is 4 years older.

 

The reality is we're back to the point where nobody wants to sign in Toronto, so we can't just "go sign Edman for 5/70".

 

Welcome to AA's entire tenure here

[Jays24]

It's hilarious that people question the addition of someone projected for 3.1 WAR season, but actually want us to sign Santander (probably for 4-5 years $100-$120M) to add his projected 2.5 WAR (119 wRC+ bat).

 

It's about balance and no, I didn't say sign these guys to any contract. Just giving an example of the type of offensive player we need in addition to Joc. 2 bats in the top 4 of the lineup is what I've been saying all along.

[PhillyBlueJay]

The problem is do we expect Ross Atkins to get value for these guys at the deadline??? No way!!!

 

The sooner Rogers fires these guys for letting Vladdy walk the better this organization will be in the short and long term.

[Terminator]

Nick Mitchell isn't in their system yet so I think he counts as a 0 here.

 

 

 

 

 

That's a garbage take.

 

They want you to believe that Gimenez's WAR is all fugazi because he's a defensive-minded 2B and teams don't pay for that. Yet Horwitz's WAR is real, because teams pay for platoon 1B?

 

Not buying it.

[AMS528]

I think this was a pretty good trade for a different team than this one.

 

This trade is going to need (several) corresponding moves in order to make sense cause you've really added some long term salary for a no bat 2B.

 

If you've committed the money for this you've now gotta commit the money for some bats or otherwise what the hell are we doing.

 

Horwitz was legitimately the second best hitter on the team last year by a decent gap. Whether he could keep it up or not he made up a component of the teams offensive success. We've subtracted that now and from that perspective it means we don't just need one more bat, we need two more bats. A DH type and an OF. I can't tell if the resources are there for that.

[Brownie19]

It's about balance and no, I didn't say sign these guys to any contract. Just giving an example of the type of offensive player we need in addition to Joc. 2 bats in the top 4 of the lineup is what I've been saying all along.

 

Make up your mind. The cost for talent is astronomical. Do you want them to pay up for Santander or not? We're not getting him for 3 years $60M. You either want him for $100M+ or you think that's insane and they should stay clear of that time bomb. The Jays aren't adding 2 bats to this lineup. They don't have the money to spend and nobody wants to sign here anyway.

 

If you ask me, we're preparing to sell. Gimenez is overpaid, but it won't matter when we are rebuilding. He can take over SS from Bo and hopefully help protect our new young pitchers (post sell-off) with good defense and if he ever figures out how to hit (he is just entering his prime), then he has 4-5 WAR upside and could become a tradable asset.

 

We're not signing Burnes, we're not signing Teo, we're not signing Santander, we're not signing Joc. We're hopefully signing bounce back candidates and guys on short term deals that have value at the deadline. The only thing we have to offer to a FA is a starting position. Players wil come here on 1 year, prove it deals, but nothing more. We may also see more trades like this - just to shake things up and I do suspect we'll add a closer - simply because we offer opportunity to close, as that door is wide open. They'll hope the guys they add start out hot so people fill the dome early in the year to drive revenue, but let's be very clear - we're not contending in 2025 - we simply aren't.

[The_DH]

I'm going to hold off on any further criticism until I know the rest of the moves. Maybe Bo gets traded for a stopper and Burnes gets signed. Could be a few different moves.

[DonJays]

Never liked that guy anyway

 

Horwitz stinks. Not sure I understand the teams direction but we lost nothing other than salary room

[burlingtonbandit]

Problem is that they need Joc AND another bat in the top of the order (Teo/Santander).

 

No way Joc is coming to Toronto. Maybe for an astronomical overpay of like 10M more than the next offer but at that point he would cost too much. He's been on the West coast his entire career.

[AMS528]

 

If you ask me, we're preparing to sell. Gimenez is overpaid, but it won't matter when we are rebuilding. He can take over SS from Bo and hopefully help protect our new young pitchers (post sell-off) with good defense and if he ever figures out how to hit (he is just entering his prime), then he has 4-5 WAR upside and could become a tradable asset.

 

We're not signing Burnes, we're not signing Teo, we're not signing Santander, we're not signing Joc. We're hopefully signing bounce back candidates and guys on short term deals that have value at the deadline. The only thing we have to offer to a FA is a starting position. Players wil come here on 1 year, prove it deals, but nothing more. We may also see more trades like this - just to shake things up and I do suspect we'll add a closer - simply because we offer opportunity to close, as that door is wide open. They'll hope the guys they add start out hot so people fill the dome early in the year to drive revenue, but let's be very clear - we're not contending in 2025 - we simply aren't.

 

It's too early to say this is the case but I don't think it's an unreasonable take here.

 

If it's true it's painful though. Full failure on the front office for that.

[Jays24]

Make up your mind. The cost for talent is astronomical. Do you want them to pay up for Santander or not? We're not getting him for 3 years $60M. You either want him for $100M+ or you think that's insane and they should stay clear of that time bomb. The Jays aren't adding 2 bats to this lineup. They don't have the money to spend and nobody wants to sign here anyway.

 

If you ask me, we're preparing to sell. Gimenez is overpaid, but it won't matter when we are rebuilding. He can take over SS from Bo and hopefully help protect our new young pitchers (post sell-off) with good defense and if he ever figures out how to hit (he is just entering his prime), then he has 4-5 WAR upside and could become a tradable asset.

 

We're not signing Burnes, we're not signing Teo, we're not signing Santander, we're not signing Joc. We're hopefully signing bounce back candidates and guys on short term deals that have value at the deadline. We may also see more trades like this - just to shake things up and I do suspect we'll add a closer - simply because we offer opportunity to close, as that door is wide open. They'll hope the guys they add start out hot so people fill the dome early in the year to drive revenue, but let's be very clear - we're not contending in 2025 - we simply aren't.

 

Dear God, you've lost it. Take a break for a bit and comeback when refreshed. It's not even that I disagree with you but just doesn't seem right coming from you lol

 

I would have taken the money used in this trade towards Teo/Joc/Burnes... basically any combination of 2 batters we can put in our top 4 and a starting pitcher depending on the price tag. Free agency almost always requires overpayment unless you're smart enough to find the buy low gems like we did with Semien/Ray for 2021.

[glory]

Trading Horwitz is a nothing burger. At best he’s a platoon 1B with moderate/average power. If he’s a 2 WAR type that’s fine but nothing worth losing sleep over. The issue is getting Gimenez, and more specifically his contract, in return. I’m sure they view his bat as being closer to league average, but that’s not worth nearly $100m. Only positive I can think of is Gimenez is far more likely to put up a 4 WAR next season than Horwitz is (or any of the internal 2B options), even if it will be driven by defense and base running, so wins added are wins added. On another team this deal might have made more sense but not on a team that has way too many offensive holes. Now if they blow their loads on Burnes then it makes the payroll situation a bit more tricky to navigate through. Maybe they move Bassitt in that scenario, or as mentioned maybe they have a Bo trade in the works. I guess I’ll wait for the end result but so far a Jimi + this trade off season wasn’t worth the 6 weeks of radio silence we experienced after the World Series ended.

[max silver]

Make up your mind. The cost for talent is astronomical. Do you want them to pay up for Santander or not? We're not getting him for 3 years $60M. You either want him for $100M+ or you think that's insane and they should stay clear of that time bomb. The Jays aren't adding 2 bats to this lineup. They don't have the money to spend and nobody wants to sign here anyway.

 

If you ask me, we're preparing to sell. Gimenez is overpaid, but it won't matter when we are rebuilding. He can take over SS from Bo and hopefully help protect our new young pitchers (post sell-off) with good defense and if he ever figures out how to hit (he is just entering his prime), then he has 4-5 WAR upside and could become a tradable asset.

 

We're not signing Burnes, we're not signing Teo, we're not signing Santander, we're not signing Joc. We're hopefully signing bounce back candidates and guys on short term deals that have value at the deadline. The only thing we have to offer to a FA is a starting position. Players wil come here on 1 year, prove it deals, but nothing more. We may also see more trades like this - just to shake things up and I do suspect we'll add a closer - simply because we offer opportunity to close, as that door is wide open. They'll hope the guys they add start out hot so people fill the dome early in the year to drive revenue, but let's be very clear - we're not contending in 2025 - we simply aren't.

 

How on earth does it make a lick of sense for a team that's about to sell to take on the full contract for a glove first second baseman that's in the midst of a 7 year $100+ million contract? A team that's selling would have just kept Horwitz or traded him for younger players/minor league assets.

[Grant77]

In a world where Nathan Eovaldi is getting 75 million, Gimenez at 5/94 is a f***ing steal. I wouldn't have said that before the offseason, but prices are absolutely insane.

[The Cats Ass]

Gimenez made it onto Fangraphs top 50 trade values as an HM. So that’s something.

[burlingtonbandit]

Trading Horwitz is a nothing burger. At best he’s a platoon 1B with moderate/average power. If he’s a 2 WAR type that’s fine but nothing worth losing sleep over. The issue is getting Gimenez, and more specifically his contract, in return. I’m sure they view his bat as being closer to league average, but that’s not worth nearly $100m. Only positive I can think of is Gimenez is far more likely to put up a 4 WAR next season than Horwitz is (or any of the internal 2B options), even if it will be driven by defense and base running, so wins added are wins added. On another team this deal might have made more sense but not on a team that has way too many offensive holes. Now if they blow their loads on Burnes then it makes the payroll situation a bit more tricky to navigate through. Maybe they move Bassitt in that scenario, or as mentioned maybe they have a Bo trade in the works. I guess I’ll wait for the end result but so far a Jimi + this trade off season wasn’t worth the 6 weeks of radio silence we experienced after the World Series ended.

 

If you trade Bo the offence takes another hit though unless you are getting a good hitting outfielder in that scenario. I agree all we can do is wait to see what the team looks like in March because there has to be other moves made for it to all make sense.

[max silver]

Gimenez made it onto Fangraphs top 50 trade values as an HM. So that’s something.

 

But then Baseball trade values rates sending out Horwitz alone as a massive overpay.