2023 Post-Mortem Thread

[Daniel Labude]

I tuned out after the Chapman DP, but what exactly did Bo do wrong on defense? It seems like a ridiculous thing to bring up at this point. His defense was never a serious issue all season.

 

According to Arod he forced a bad throw/error because he did literally everything wrong technique wise turning a double play

[Omar]

I tuned out after the Chapman DP, but what exactly did Bo do wrong on defense? It seems like a ridiculous thing to bring up at this point. His defense was never a serious issue all season.

 

Bo only made eight errors all season. Big reduction from the year before. Marked improvement.

[Steeljays]

According to Arod he forced a bad throw/error because he did literally everything wrong technique wise turning a double play

 

 

Double plays are not guaranteed. He gets a pass there. Bo had a good improved D this season

[Jimcanuck]

Double plays are not guaranteed. He gets a pass there. Bo had a good improved D this season

 

Plus a better 1B than Vladdy catches that ball

[connorp]

Double plays are not guaranteed. He gets a pass there. Bo had a good improved D this season

 

At the cost of pop and sb. Not a disappointment but not a step up either.

[Daniel Labude]

Double plays are not guaranteed. He gets a pass there. Bo had a good improved D this season

 

No its demotion worthy bad. According to many hall or famers, little league kids know more than Bo and can play the position better

[connorp]

No its demotion worthy bad. According to many hall or famers, little league kids know more than Bo and can play the position better

 

There some passive aggressive Vlad stuff going on here?

[Jimcanuck]

No its demotion worthy bad. According to many hall or famers, little league kids know more than Bo and can play the position better

 

wat? lol

[Steeljays]

Plus a better 1B than Vladdy catches that ball

 

Vlad was back stepping on that play. Yes he should have caught but he was backtracking to the base and also had to move right at same time for the throw. He was never in good position

[Steeljays]

No its demotion worthy bad. According to many hall or famers, little league kids know more than Bo and can play the position better

 

 

LOL ok guy

[BatFlip]

I wonder what you could get for Vlad. He might not even be providing surplus value anymore as his final arb years eclipse 20 million.

 

You get very little. You don't sell at the absolute bottom of Vlad's market, you run him out there next year and hope you see improvement. Who knows if he'll take fitness more seriously this off-season, I'm sure this was a massively disappointing season for him.

 

If he doesn't get himself in shape, humble him and sit him when he's slumping or runs into a goddamn stupid out.

[Omar]

I remember reading in Steve Jobs biography that early on in the formative years of Apple he insisted on hiring every manager no matter the position. When asked why he said, "to avoid the bozo explosion.". He explained if you hire a bozo they then proceed to hire a bozo like themselves. And so it proceeds down the line and throughout your organization. Next thing you know you have a whole organization of bozos. The hiring of Montoyo et al. is all part of the bozo explosion that Jobs warned about. It wouldn't surprise me if this org is full of bozos from scouting to operations to coaching.

 

Can't wait for the inevitable great purge.

 

I posted this about a month ago. Today's game is the output of an organization that takes input from bozos.

[jaysblue]

I posted this about a month ago. Today's game is the output of an organization that takes input from bozos.

 

I thought this organization and FO were brilliant minds though and that we shouldn't question them? That's what I was told by a poster on this board.

[DCJaysF]

ItÂ’s alright to be mad at Vlad, he made a very costly error. Also, had a rough year by his standards. But some of these comments are idiotic.

 

Look at the stats, with his bad year this year he was still one of our top 2-3 offensive players. We expect a lot more sure, but people saying that Vlad was the main problem on this team this season are insane. His downgrade this year was an issue but he was far from the “main” problem with only 26 hr, .345 OBP, and .789 OPS. He wasn’t a super star but we had so many other players that were so much worse as well.

 

We shouldnÂ’t give Vlad 10 years 300 million ATM but no one else is goons do that yet either. But his upside is still very large, and he still is the youngest member of the team at 24. IÂ’m not trading a player of his upside at his lowest possible trade value point for peanuts when heÂ’s controllable until 2026. You see what happens next year at the bare minimum. Just downgrade your expectations of him if you want. If you donÂ’t expect him to be our biggest star then you can look at his production of 26 hr, .345 obp etc for 14.5 million as not that bad tbh.

 

HeÂ’s not playing like a 35 million dollar a year player but heÂ’s not being paid like a 35 million a year player either.

 

Trade a 24 year old guy with that much upside for peanuts right now? You know how hard it is to actually even get superstar free agents to come up to Toronto?

 

Look weÂ’re all disappointed in Vlad and that horrible pick off esp, but IÂ’m more disappointed in the construction of the whole team by the front office and some of the coaching tbh.

 

So many reasons we lost this game and this series besides that one very costly mistake.

[DCJaysF]

Vlad is considered uncoachable

He does what he does and will not change

Explore trades. If he stays bat him 5th not 3rd

 

Source?

[glory]

I wonder what you could get for Vlad. He might not even be providing surplus value anymore as his final arb years eclipse 20 million.

 

Hard to say. There might be one or two teams willing to give up something for him that's closer to the Vlad hype rather than the Vlad reality, but who knows. Someone mentioned Vlad for Soto, I think the only GM in the sport that would do that trade is Preller, so maybe there's hope for something like that (probably not), but I don't think the Jays would get any teams top prospects. He's someone they should probably keep and hope he bounces back over the next 2 years. Bichette is far more likely to get something back in a trade.

[Olerud363]

I wonder what you could get for Vlad. He might not even be providing surplus value anymore as his final arb years eclipse 20 million.

 

It depends what you project him for. Is it 10 million per WAR now? Your favourite player, Cody Bellinger was sort of in a similar situation in terms of fWAR. Going from a 6+ fWAR superstar to a 1 WAR dude but having the high arbitration start baked in and there is a rule that they can only decrease so much in Arb.

 

Difference is Bellinger colllapsed completely as a hitter into unknown realms, where Vlad has merely degraded to a slightly above average hitter, but with such terrible defense and baserunning that his fWAR is still at 1 like Bellingers.

 

So on one hand you may want to take a chance on Vlad because his hitting skills are still mostly intact and just some weird 2 degree angle tweak or something from being elite... on the other his arb number might be like 25 million next year (based on Soto's not sure if the arb dudes consider walks and WARs... if it's old school Vlad is getting 25 million).

 

So do you pay 25 million next year? I guess you have to, especially after Bellinger made a similar decision look real bad.

[Olerud363]

Source?

 

I've heard this from multiple other posters. No idea if they have a real source, but claim it is not the coaching that is responsible for Vlad's situation.

[jaysblue]

Nobody gives a f*** about the Leafs.

 

Spanky does.

[Olerud363]

ItÂ’s alright to be mad at Vlad, he made a very costly error. Also, had a rough year by his standards. But some of these comments are idiotic.

 

Look at the stats, with his bad year this year he was still one of our top 2-3 offensive players. We expect a lot more sure, but people saying that Vlad was the main problem on this team this season are insane. His downgrade this year was an issue but he was far from the “main” problem with only 26 hr, .345 OBP, and .789 OPS. He wasn’t a super star but we had so many other players that were so much worse as well.

 

We shouldnÂ’t give Vlad 10 years 300 million ATM but no one else is goons do that yet either. But his upside is still very large, and he still is the youngest member of the team at 24. IÂ’m not trading a player of his upside at his lowest possible trade value point for peanuts when heÂ’s controllable until 2026. You see what happens next year at the bare minimum. Just downgrade your expectations of him if you want. If you donÂ’t expect him to be our biggest star then you can look at his production of 26 hr, .345 obp etc for 14.5 million as not that bad tbh.

 

HeÂ’s not playing like a 35 million dollar a year player but heÂ’s not being paid like a 35 million a year player either.

 

Trade a 24 year old guy with that much upside for peanuts right now? You know how hard it is to actually even get superstar free agents to come up to Toronto?

 

Look weÂ’re all disappointed in Vlad and that horrible pick off esp, but IÂ’m more disappointed in the construction of the whole team by the front office and some of the coaching tbh.

 

So many reasons we lost this game and this series besides that one very costly mistake.

 

Agree. I am more frustrated with him than any player I can remember. At age 18, 19 and 22 he was literally like a top 5 hitter ever for that age. He is now at 24 just like an average guy. Like Ryan Noda, and Boston's first basemen, Tristan Casas, and the Twin's first basemen can all just do what Vlad do at about the same age.

 

Like he went from multiple years top 5 as a hitter out of thousands of players ever, to not even top 20 among 24-26 year olds this year with minor journeyman every where beating him.

 

But the top 5 ever potential may still be there because he did multiple times.

[Carlos Danger]

This team needs a Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff moment. Pat Gillick saw the Jays get destroyed by the A's in the playoffs with the same core that was good, but not good enough. He made the move and it became Joe Carter's and Roberto Alomar's team.

 

This has been Vlad and Bo's team long enough with not sufficient results. Saying Vlad was one of the best hitters on a horrible offensive squad is not saying much. The Blue Jays do not have have a clean up hitter, because it ain't Vlad and Bo should hit 2nd or 3rd.

 

Barker has been saying all year how bad Vlad's footwork is at 1b and that he thought Mattingly was going to fix it... Apparently not for whatever reason

 

Vlad has been regressing. Where is this potential you are saying there is? It is also foolish to chase upside that is never going to come and then get nothing for Vlad. For the exact reason you are saying we should keep him, probably another team would still trade something decent for him.

 

You need to build an all around solid baseball team. Vlad's production is what you maybe want in the 5th spot if you have nothing else. The offense, Vlad's approach at the plate 3/4 of the year coupled with too many bad plays to go with the good at 1b, plus brain dead moves in other areas some times. Vlad is the change we need to make. He is the main course of the restaurant and you can't just keep changing furniture, adding new sides and paint the room a different color.

 

Time for a new main course.

[Nexii]

I posted this about a month ago. Today's game is the output of an organization that takes input from bozos.

 

Jays were third in the league in IBBs. I refuse to believe that's good analytic-based decision making

[Stangstag]

Yup.

 

Lots of singles? Check

Bad results with RISP? Check

No power to be seen from anyone? Check.

Multiple 400 foot outs to CF? Check.

Inexcuseable baserunning errors at key times? Check

 

Bingo!

 

I hate this thanks

[Doubleplay21]

The best thing Jays can do is fire their computer

[Olerud363]

This team needs a Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff moment. Pat Gillick saw the Jays get destroyed by the A's in the playoffs with the same core that was good, but not good enough. He made the move and it became Joe Carter's and Roberto Alomar's team.

 

This has been Vlad and Bo's team long enough with not sufficient results. Saying Vlad was one of the best hitters on a horrible offensive squad is not saying much. The Blue Jays do not have have a clean up hitter, because it ain't Vlad and Bo should hit 2nd or 3rd.

 

Barker has been saying all year how bad Vlad's footwork is at 1b and that he thought Mattingly was going to fix it... Apparently not for whatever reason

 

Vlad has been regressing. Where is this potential you are saying there is? It is also foolish to chase upside that is never going to come and then get nothing for Vlad. For the exact reason you are saying we should keep him, probably another team would still trade something decent for him.

 

You need to build an all around solid baseball team. Vlad's production is what you maybe want in the 5th spot if you have nothing else. The offense, Vlad's approach at the plate 3/4 of the year coupled with too many bad plays to go with the good at 1b, plus brain dead moves in other areas some times. Vlad is the change we need to make. He is the main course of the restaurant and you can't just keep changing furniture, adding new sides and paint the room a different color.

 

Time for a new main course.

 

The hilarious thing about McGriff/Fenandez Alomar/Carter is that it was 11 fWAR for 1.

 

But then Carter/Alomar rebounded to about 8 WAR and beat McGriff Fernandez in 1991.

 

Bo/Vlad are like 5 WAR combined in 2023. Tough to make a big trade with the all the analytics, like what front office is going to give you value for them that is a better bet to be elite in 2024 than a Vlad/Bo rebound is?

[Olerud363]

The best thing Jays can do is fire their computer

 

Analytics as an ingame tool is ... I don't know. Over-rated? Useless maybe? You replace guy a, with guy b in the 4th and decide not to bunt in the 5th inning and get a .04% better chance of winning but a 92.5% chance of pissing everyone off if you don't?

 

Analytics should be used as like a long term thing. Like if we get these guys, who look good with the analytics and get them the best hitting mechanics coach, and get a nerd to use the AI to find tells, then we can score 850 runs and give up only 650 and hit 254 homers.. that's how analytics should be used. Like a long term thing to choose the right hitting approach and amphetamine doses.

[Carlos Danger]

The hilarious thing about McGriff/Fenandez Alomar/Carter is that it was 11 fWAR for 1.

 

But then Carter/Alomar rebounded to about 8 WAR and beat McGriff Fernandez in 1991.

 

Bo/Vlad are like 5 WAR combined in 2023. Tough to make a big trade with the all the analytics, like what front office is going to give you value for them that is a better bet to be elite in 2024 than a Vlad/Bo rebound is?

 

I suspect you are old enough to remember that was a move to shake up the chemistry/culture of the team. Gillick brought in exactly the right guys for that. It was a move to counter sustained failure in the playoffs to that point.

 

McGriff as nice as a guy he was, wasn't what the team needed as a leader.

[TheHurl]

So you're saying taking out a pitcher who is pitching the game of his lifetime in a win or go home game, with a 0-0 score, after only 47 pitches thrown with a runner on first base and none outs; and then putting in a starter unfamiliar with the role of reliever (and who struggled down the stretch), who then proceeds to load the bases with none out eventually allowing two runs to score is a good outcome? That was Schneiders plan that worked? That was the plan? "It worked" !!??

 

again. All of you are assuming that Berrios doesn't give up a run. People keep saying that Berrios had the best stuff he's had. It was also said in the Yankees game a week ago. He had no hit them and struck out 5. Throwing nothing but strikes. He walked the first batter and then 3 more hits. If Berrios gives up the runs. We are behind and set up poorly on our bullpen matchups. If we keep Berrios in and he gives up none through 5. The bullpen still has to face all those lefties, that we didn't want our pen to face. Maybe they give up the runs. Keeping Berrios in is hoping for a 1-0 win in the fans mind. That's not good game planning either.

 

I can buy it being a different lefty, I can buy it not being Berrios starting. But the jays game plan gave up 2 cheap runs. That is a success. The issue is optics and made up stuff about how it energized the Twins (who would have been energized if they got a s***** single off Berrios too)

[Grant77]

The hate for Bo is really perplexing to me.

[jaysblue]

The hate for Bo is really perplexing to me.

 

Aside from Bo's defense, he's been really the only bat who has performed offensively at a high level when healthy. Springer, Vladdy, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho were all disappointments this season.