General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Terminator]

Best line-up the Jay's can wield atm imo:

 

Schneider LF

Kiner-Falefa SS

Guerrero 3B

Jansen C

Varsho CF

Bichette 2B

Vogelbach DH

Springer RF

Turner 1B

 

 

Schneider LF

Kiner-Falefa SS

Guerrero 3B

Jansen DH

Varsho CF

Bichette 2B

Kirk C

Springer RF

Turner 1B

 

I like putting Kirk in at C if they are going to go with Vlad at 3B like you suggested. The team defense is a strength and they can't just sacrifice all of it for small gains in offense. Kirk stealing some strikes with his framing can help make up for Vlad at 3B and Schneider in the OF over KK, etc.

 

I think the main thing I'd do right now is put Turner and Vogelbach in a platoon which they kind of are. Turner hasn't been as bad as it seems. His xwOBA is .322 but he is in this first percentile for bat speed. He has a good swing and a good eye so he can still hit but I wouldn't want him in their against high velo righties. Plus, Vogelbach is hitting the s*** out of the ball this year.

[IrishCanuck]

Fair points, though I don't see any defensive sacrifices with that line-up... Bichette would be better at 2B, Kiner-Falefa has the arm for SS, Vlad is fine at 3B,..could lose a bit of weight? hehe ..and Turner is highly experienced and would be a fine first baseman.

[Olerud363]

 

Bring back the Cito Gaston management style! ... Scheinder had NEVER had a stablised line-up...

players can't get on a roll if they have no stability, keep changing their line-up spot, get benched

when they are hot, get bench because of stats people, lefty - righty match ups etc.... all

non-sense imo ....

 

Cito management style was not stability. It was full of prejudice and favoritism and the perception of stability was only because he refused to move his favorites from their deserved line up spot.

 

So with Cito you had Devon White hitting leadoff even carrying a .300 on base percentage in 92, Joe Carter hitting 3rd or 4th even as an old -2 WAR player in 1997.

 

However other players had no stability. John Olerud could have himself benched for old Pat Tabler or Jacob Brumfield. Green hit all over the place and was sat for Ruben Sierra. Travis Snider same thing

 

So Cito Gaston lineup for 2024 Jays would be

 

Kiermaier

Kiner-Falefa

Springer

Guerrero

Turner

Bichette

Jansen 148 games Kirk 14

Varsho/Scheider platoon

Biggio/Clemente platoon

 

 

Kiermair leadoff because no way you put power hitters lead off, the RBI guys need to drive in runs. Kiner-Falefa second because he looks like a #2 hitter and can handle the bat. The vet George Springer 3rd to get some RBIs and Guerrero 4th.

 

Turner is another vet and needs a good line up spot, so 5th every day, Bichette 6th every day,

 

Jansen for 148 games because no way you put a base clogger in the game unless you have to.

 

Young guys need to earn their way so they can platoon for the first 7 or 8 years

[IrishCanuck]

I see what yer getting at .. haha .. but how can you know how Cito would 'feel' about certain players in today's team?

Devo had wheels and stole the right base when needed ... Robbie also could steal ....Blue Jays this year have speed btw,

and the new stealing rules..they should run more ... speed and a decent OBP at the top of the order is better than a power hitter imho..

Olerud needed the odd day of rest ... I LOVE Jansen at 148 games! 40 homers! and come on man.... 1992 and 1993 line-ups were perfect ... and so were the results.

The main point being we can't have a different line-up everyday, get the best one and run it. It will get the good players rolling. And you sound like a Cito hater.

Glad you weren't advising him haha ...and anyway your line-up wouldn't be that bad .. haha

[Stangstag]

Still can't believe they landed him for a back of the rotation starter and a bunch of mediocre-bad pitching prospects

 

Tbf King looked solid last year, but yeah Yanks never seem to get the bad end of a trade.

[Stangstag]

Fair points, though I don't see any defensive sacrifices with that line-up... Bichette would be better at 2B, Kiner-Falefa has the arm for SS, Vlad is fine at 3B,..could lose a bit of weight? hehe ..and Turner is highly experienced and would be a fine first baseman.

 

This is not a given, he has little to no experience there so he’d be having to learn a new position basically. Probably better off just keeping him at SS and playing IKF at 2nd

[Brownie19]

I see what yer getting at .. haha .. but how can you know how Cito would 'feel' about certain players in today's team?

Devo had wheels and stole the right base when needed ... Robbie also could steal ....Blue Jays this year have speed btw,

and the new stealing rules..they should run more ... speed and a decent OBP at the top of the order is better than a power hitter imho..

Olerud needed the odd day of rest ... I LOVE Jansen at 148 games! 40 homers! and come on man.... 1992 and 1993 line-ups were perfect ... and so were the results.

The main point being we can't have a different line-up everyday, get the best one and run it. It will get the good players rolling. And you sound like a Cito hater.

Glad you weren't advising him haha ...and anyway your line-up wouldn't be that bad .. haha

 

This is 100% false. Good news is teams can still win, even with imperfect managers (because managers don't actually have a huge impact on results).

 

Your claim is a consistent lineup will produce better than one that is constantly changing to suit matchups and to provide certain players with rest. It's interesting you use Cito as an example, give he did implement platoon situations (back when they were a lot less common). Nevertheless, what are you basing this claim on? Is there an article you read that analyzed this? or is this just a gut feeling, based off how managers/teams used to play baseball 25 years ago? I'm not sure I've seen any analysis done on this, but I do believe most MLB teams have moved away from strict/set lineups - which tells me it's not true in most cases. My gut says some players do prefer to consistently hit in the same spot/role on a daily basis and for other players, it doesn't matter one bit to them (and then there's the debate whether how they feel about it actually impacts their results). It's probably up to each manager to understand his players and develop strategies accordingly. I highly doubt a one size fits all approach is the way to go.

[Barrelsandbombs]

Passan is saying Jays will decide their direction over the all star break

 

[BatFlip]

This is 100% false. Good news is teams can still win, even with imperfect managers (because managers don't actually have a huge impact on results).

 

Your claim is a consistent lineup will produce better than one that is constantly changing to suit matchups and to provide certain players with rest. It's interesting you use Cito as an example, give he did implement platoon situations (back when they were a lot less common). Nevertheless, what are you basing this claim on? Is there an article you read that analyzed this? or is this just a gut feeling, based off how managers/teams used to play baseball 25 years ago? I'm not sure I've seen any analysis done on this, but I do believe most MLB teams have moved away from strict/set lineups - which tells me it's not true in most cases. My gut says some players do prefer to consistently hit in the same spot/role on a daily basis and for other players, it doesn't matter one bit to them (and then there's the debate whether how they feel about it actually impacts their results). It's probably up to each manager to understand his players and develop strategies accordingly. I highly doubt a one size fits all approach is the way to go.

 

Something tells me you're going to be disappointed with his quantitative analysis (who needs to do analysis when they have championships bro!)

[Olerud363]

I see what yer getting at .. haha .. but how can you know how Cito would 'feel' about certain players in today's team?

Devo had wheels and stole the right base when needed ... Robbie also could steal ....Blue Jays this year have speed btw,

and the new stealing rules..they should run more ... speed and a decent OBP at the top of the order is better than a power hitter imho..

Olerud needed the odd day of rest ... I LOVE Jansen at 148 games! 40 homers! and come on man.... 1992 and 1993 line-ups were perfect ... and so were the results.

The main point being we can't have a different line-up everyday, get the best one and run it. It will get the good players rolling. And you sound like a Cito hater.

Glad you weren't advising him haha ...and anyway your line-up wouldn't be that bad .. haha

 

If you wanted an everyday lineup here it is

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 3b

Barger dh

Bichette ss

Springer rf

Horwitz 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal 2b

 

 

Good left right balance. Find out what you have in Horwitz and Barger. Play that lineup every single day until Oct 1 2025. I'd watch it.

[Olerud363]

This is 100% false. Good news is teams can still win, even with imperfect managers (because managers don't actually have a huge impact on results).

 

Your claim is a consistent lineup will produce better than one that is constantly changing to suit matchups and to provide certain players with rest. It's interesting you use Cito as an example, give he did implement platoon situations (back when they were a lot less common). Nevertheless, what are you basing this claim on? Is there an article you read that analyzed this? or is this just a gut feeling, based off how managers/teams used to play baseball 25 years ago? I'm not sure I've seen any analysis done on this, but I do believe most MLB teams have moved away from strict/set lineups - which tells me it's not true in most cases. My gut says some players do prefer to consistently hit in the same spot/role on a daily basis and for other players, it doesn't matter one bit to them (and then there's the debate whether how they feel about it actually impacts their results). It's probably up to each manager to understand his players and develop strategies accordingly. I highly doubt a one size fits all approach is the way to go.

 

The 1993 lineup using analytics would be

 

Henderson

Alomar

Molitor

Olerud

Carter

Fernandez

While

Sprague

Borders

 

Using respect it was

 

Henderson

White

Alomar

Carter

Olerud

Molitor

Fernandez

Sprague

Borders

 

Probably didn't make much of a difference really. And a second inning of Olerud, Molitor, Fernandez was on on base party. Sprague should have driven in 150.

[Brownie19]

Passan is saying Jays will decide their direction over the all star break

 

 

That seems about right to me.

[Olerud363]

This is 100% false. Good news is teams can still win, even with imperfect managers (because managers don't actually have a huge impact on results).

 

Your claim is a consistent lineup will produce better than one that is constantly changing to suit matchups and to provide certain players with rest. It's interesting you use Cito as an example, give he did implement platoon situations (back when they were a lot less common). Nevertheless, what are you basing this claim on? Is there an article you read that analyzed this? or is this just a gut feeling, based off how managers/teams used to play baseball 25 years ago? I'm not sure I've seen any analysis done on this, but I do believe most MLB teams have moved away from strict/set lineups - which tells me it's not true in most cases. My gut says some players do prefer to consistently hit in the same spot/role on a daily basis and for other players, it doesn't matter one bit to them (and then there's the debate whether how they feel about it actually impacts their results). It's probably up to each manager to understand his players and develop strategies accordingly. I highly doubt a one size fits all approach is the way to go.

 

I think for some players it could help. I think Pillar was another guy that got banged up, hurt his hand, and that knocked his numbers down after 2015, but would have loved to see him hit leadoff.

 

It sounds crazy, and I'm not saying that given Pillar as a .250 .300 .400 hitter hitting him leadoff would have made any sense

 

More that, what if, given the Devon White treatment (White was awful before Cito told him he was a leadoff hitter) Pillar was 5% better ? And that led to more runs scored. That is exactly what happened with Devon White.

 

Like maybe someone else should have been lead off, but maybe without 'respect' White would have hit worse, leading to a worse team.

[max silver]

That seems about right to me.

 

It's not hard to envision a sell off starting earlier if the team completely craters during the tough schedule in June.

[BatFlip]

I think for some players it could help. I think Pillar was another guy that got banged up, hurt his hand, and that knocked his numbers down after 2015, but would have loved to see him hit leadoff.

 

It sounds crazy, and I'm not saying that given Pillar as a .250 .300 .400 hitter hitting him leadoff would have made any sense

 

More that, what if, given the Devon White treatment (White was awful before Cito told him he was a leadoff hitter) Pillar was 5% better ? And that led to more runs scored. That is exactly what happened with Devon White.

 

Like maybe someone else should have been lead off, but maybe without 'respect' White would have hit worse, leading to a worse team.

 

 

You're right about one thing. It does sound crazy.

[IrishCanuck]

This is not a given, he has little to no experience there so he’d be having to learn a new position basically. Probably better off just keeping him at SS and playing IKF at 2nd

 

I meant better for the team if he were at 2B, he'd probably play at the same level as now, and I think Kiner has better hands and would dive for a ball, even if he dirtied his hair

[IrishCanuck]

This is 100% false. Good news is teams can still win, even with imperfect managers (because managers don't actually have a huge impact on results).

 

Your claim is a consistent lineup will produce better than one that is constantly changing to suit matchups and to provide certain players with rest. It's interesting you use Cito as an example, give he did implement platoon situations (back when they were a lot less common). Nevertheless, what are you basing this claim on? Is there an article you read that analyzed this? or is this just a gut feeling, based off how managers/teams used to play baseball 25 years ago? I'm not sure I've seen any analysis done on this, but I do believe most MLB teams have moved away from strict/set lineups - which tells me it's not true in most cases. My gut says some players do prefer to consistently hit in the same spot/role on a daily basis and for other players, it doesn't matter one bit to them (and then there's the debate whether how they feel about it actually impacts their results). It's probably up to each manager to understand his players and develop strategies accordingly. I highly doubt a one size fits all approach is the way to go.

 

Yes.. a gut feeeling ..it's my own analysis ... baseball may have been better 25 years, as was the world .. they could try a stable line-up ... it couldn't hurt at this point

[IrishCanuck]

If you wanted an everyday lineup here it is

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 3b

Barger dh

Bichette ss

Springer rf

Horwitz 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal 2b

 

 

Good left right balance. Find out what you have in Horwitz and Barger. Play that lineup every single day until Oct 1 2025. I'd watch it.

 

That's not bad at all Schneider should try your line-up or mine ...and leave it to settle

[Brownie19]

Yes.. a gut feeeling ..it's my own analysis ... baseball may have been better 25 years, as was the world .. they could try a stable line-up ... it couldn't hurt at this point

 

Change is difficult for most as they age. I'm really starting to feel that myself. I'm not sure baseball or the world were actually better 25 years ago, nor am I interested in debating that with you. However, a stable lineup actually could hurt the team further. If it actually provided all kinds of advantages, then everyone would do it. That's the easiest way to look at it.

[Omar]

If you wanted an everyday lineup here it is

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 3b

Barger dh

Bichette ss

Springer rf

Horwitz 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal 2b

 

 

Good left right balance. Find out what you have in Horwitz and Barger. Play that lineup every single day until Oct 1 2025. I'd watch it.

 

Well if there any justice in this world and you wanted to win games, the lineup would be:

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 1b

Martinez dh

Bichette 2b

Lukes rf

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal SS

Barger 3b

Edited June 4, 2024 by Omar

[IrishCanuck]

Change is difficult for most as they age. I'm really starting to feel that myself. I'm not sure baseball or the world were actually better 25 years ago, nor am I interested in debating that with you. However, a stable lineup actually could hurt the team further. If it actually provided all kinds of advantages, then everyone would do it. That's the easiest way to look at it.

 

Wisdom comes with age Throw away the targeting computer Luke... use the gut and listen to the baseball spirits,... take your top 9 guys and make your best line-up and go!

I hope they find a stable one and they start to win, because it hurts me after being a fan since the early 80s as a child to see the Jays losing so badly!

[Olerud363]

You're right about one thing. It does sound crazy.

 

If you believe that there is a psychological boost if you hit in the right spot it isn't crazy.

 

Devon White pre-91 was far worse than Pillar.

[Olerud363]

Well if there any justice in this world and you wanted to win games, the lineup would be:

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 1b

Martinez dh

Bichette 2b

Lukes rf

Vladdy 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal SS

Barger 3b

 

That's not bad either.

 

I actually think Vlad has the same WAR whether he plays 1st or 3rd because of his arm. If he's a negative 20 defense guy he wouldn't take a hit at third because he can make the throws.

 

At this point Howritz projects better and makes more sense than Martinez.

 

As a moral issue I do not believe in allowing humans to waste one or more of their prime years in Buffalo. Martinez is not in his prime.

[Brownie19]

Well if there any justice in this world and you wanted to win games, the lineup would be:

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 1b

Martinez dh

Bichette 2b

Lukes rf

Vladdy 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal SS

Barger 3b

 

That would be a new approach. Bat Vlad twice. I wonder if they'd notice?

[Eat My Shatkins]

Well if there any justice in this world and you wanted to win games, the lineup would be:

 

Varsho cf

Schneider lf

Guerrero 1b

Martinez dh

Bichette 2b

Lukes rf

Vladdy 1b

Jansen/Kirk c

Falefal SS

Barger 3b

 

 

I dunno if I could handle watching Vladdy pound the ball into the dirt twice as often

[Brownie19]

Wisdom comes with age Throw away the targeting computer Luke... use the gut and listen to the baseball spirits,... take your top 9 guys and make your best line-up and go!

I hope they find a stable one and they start to win, because it hurts me after being a fan since the early 80s as a child to see the Jays losing so badly!

 

With age comes memory loss If you've been a Jays fan that long, you've seen and been through teams that were SIGNIFICANTLY worse. This team has done lots of winning over the past 4 1/2 years. This stretch is one of their best since the 1993 season.

[Omar]

That would be a new approach. Bat Vlad twice. I wonder if they'd notice?

 

You get an extra ab for every 60lbs over weight.

[Omar]

That's not bad either.

 

I actually think Vlad has the same WAR whether he plays 1st or 3rd because of his arm. If he's a negative 20 defense guy he wouldn't take a hit at third because he can make the throws.

 

At this point Howritz projects better and makes more sense than Martinez.

 

As a moral issue I do not believe in allowing humans to waste one or more of their prime years in Buffalo. Martinez is not in his prime.

 

We need to hit some bombs so I thought to take a chance on Orelvis while keeping his glove out of the lineup.

[Omar]

With age comes memory loss If you've been a Jays fan that long, you've seen and been through teams that were SIGNIFICANTLY worse. This team has done lots of winning over the past 4 1/2 years. This stretch is one of their best since the 1993 season.

 

Not when it counted.

[Jays333]

With age comes memory loss If you've been a Jays fan that long, you've seen and been through teams that were SIGNIFICANTLY worse. This team has done lots of winning over the past 4 1/2 years. This stretch is one of their best since the 1993 season.

 

This team has done lots of regular season winning but hasn't actually won anything. At least when you suck you look forward to the prospects and the idea of building into something, but this team is built, has peaked, the farm system is barren and were on the way down, with a stubborn GM who I have feeling isn't going to do the right thing and blow it up because it probably means his job.