What the F is Manoah on a major league rotation? Does the org not have any idea? LOL

[Terminator]

But his Stuff+ was 82 in the game v. the Tigers. That data suggests he's not a ML pitcher.

 

What was his location? His Stuff+ has never been great even when he was really good. He got buy with location. I doubt the team thought he was going to return to ace status but if he was showing signs of being a number 4 then the team didn't need to bother with the Michael Lorenzen's of the world.

[L54]

What was his location? His Stuff+ has never been great even when he was really good. He got buy with location. I doubt the team thought he was going to return to ace status but if he was showing signs of being a number 4 then the team didn't need to bother with the Michael Lorenzen's of the world.

 

Okay just for shits and giggles what’s your next step if the Detroit start location+ numbers were bad too?

[Terminator]

The data “probably” looking good and the data looking good are two different things my guy

 

I'm assuming it "probably" looked good based on them progressing him. But maybe you are right, the Jays do the opposite of what the data suggests because Ross Atkins is a cowardly non-confrontational nerd. It's actually not entirely impossible.

 

Regardless, I like your plan above and we are splitting hairs over two Alek Manoah starts instead of using bullpen games. I can't stand watching Manoah pitch this year. He's laboring through everything praying for umps to call strikes because he can't get whiffs. Drenched in sweat in the first inning. The amount of second hand cringe I get from watching him is similar to watching a comedian bomb a stand up set at an open mic night. The trade deadline cannot come fast enough.

[Brownie19]

What was his location? His Stuff+ has never been great even when he was really good. He got buy with location. I doubt the team thought he was going to return to ace status but if he was showing signs of being a number 4 then the team didn't need to bother with the Michael Lorenzen's of the world.

 

Fair - but there aren't many ML pitchers who can be effective with a Stuff+ of 82. Now many this s*** takes time to stabilize - I'm not the expert, but if my memory serves correct, a Stuff+ of 82 is f***ing awful.

[MikeM3]

I'm assuming it "probably" looked good based on them progressing him. But maybe you are right, the Jays do the opposite of what the data suggests because Ross Atkins is a cowardly non-confrontational nerd. It's actually not entirely impossible.

 

Regardless, I like your plan above and we are splitting hairs over two Alek Manoah starts instead of using bullpen games. I can't stand watching Manoah pitch this year. He's laboring through everything praying for umps to call strikes because he can't get whiffs. Drenched in sweat in the first inning. The amount of second hand cringe I get from watching him is similar to watching a comedian bomb a stand up set at an open mic night. The trade deadline cannot come fast enough.

 

It could just be that they thought he was on the right track and he could build on it up here because we have no one else to take the ball. If we had a #6 somewhere they probably would have let him stay down and work a little more.

 

Because we're still trying to win games and a 60% Manoah might actually be better than the alternative.

[Terminator]

Okay just for shits and giggles what’s your next step if the Detroit start location+ numbers were bad too?

 

Why even bother with a hypothetical? What was his actual Location+? Given the results of that Tigers game, it was pretty good right? Bad Stuff and good Location can often result in a good result, particularly against a bad team? Where do you find these numbers, I'll just look them up on my own next time.

 

But if you really want me to answer your hypo here is what I would do.

 

bad Stuff+ and good Location+ (which is what I think happened)= Work some trades for a SP in anticipation of the deadline

 

bad Stuff+ and bad Location+ = Continue to work some trades for a SP in anticipation of the deadline with some added urgency

[Terminator]

It could just be that they thought he was on the right track and he could build on it up here because we have no one else to take the ball. If we had a #6 somewhere they probably would have let him stay down and work a little more.

 

Because we're still trying to win games and a 60% Manoah might actually be better than the alternative.

 

Yeah that's part of my point. It doesn't really kill us to see if a quick reset fixes anything. It's no guarantee we go 2-0 in bullpen games instead the Manoah starts. Manoah also ate some innings that Richards otherwise would have had to have eaten. Though that 2nd start didn't really save the bullpen much.

[glory]

Tiedemann getting hurt was a huge blow because there’s no doubt he’d be starting right now if he were available, and maybe they’d have been more sensible in their approach with Manoah. I still find it crazy that they know he’s gonna get lit up and still start him hoping divine intervention gets him through each start.

[L54]

Why even bother with a hypothetical? What was his actual Location+? Given the results of that Tigers game, it was pretty good right? Bad Stuff and good Location can often result in a good result, particularly against a bad team? Where do you find these numbers, I'll just look them up on my own next time.

 

But if you really want me to answer your hypo here is what I would do.

 

bad Stuff+ and good Location+ (which is what I think happened)= Work some trades for a SP in anticipation of the deadline

 

bad Stuff+ and bad Location+ = Continue to work some trades for a SP in anticipation of the deadline with some added urgency

 

I don’t know. I tried to find Stuff+ one time on Fangraphs and all I could find was the leaderboard which didn’t help me

[L54]

I'm assuming it "probably" looked good based on them progressing him. But maybe you are right, the Jays do the opposite of what the data suggests because Ross Atkins is a cowardly non-confrontational nerd. It's actually not entirely impossible.

 

Regardless, I like your plan above and we are splitting hairs over two Alek Manoah starts instead of using bullpen games. I can't stand watching Manoah pitch this year. He's laboring through everything praying for umps to call strikes because he can't get whiffs. Drenched in sweat in the first inning. The amount of second hand cringe I get from watching him is similar to watching a comedian bomb a stand up set at an open mic night. The trade deadline cannot come fast enough.

 

Agreed. I’m tired of watching him gasp for air on the mound getting shelled. We’re pretty much guaranteed to get a shiny new toy and I can’t wait to see who it is!

[BlueBaller]

I'm so sick of fat bastards. You aren't an animal. You have impulse control!

[L54]

I'm so sick of fat bastards. You aren't an animal. You have impulse control!

 

No more free range of the pre game spread!!

[hanton]

where have you been. Manoah calls the shots here not Atkins and certainly not Schneider

[BigCecil]

Agreed. I’m tired of watching him gasp for air on the mound getting shelled. We’re pretty much guaranteed to get a shiny new toy and I can’t wait to see who it is!

 

I don't know how shiny its going to be hombre. Shiny is gonna cost...a lot. Are they prepared to move more of our higher end prospects to put more chips in?

[jaysblue]

I agree it was too fast to bring him up but he looked okay in AA and then okay again against the Tigers. And they are working with far more data than we are.

 

With the trade deadline coming up they want to know what they've got. You hate to give up anything, even if it's a 40FV, for something you've already got on the roster. With the added WCs it's turned the deadline into a constant seller's market. Look at last year, they traded for Mitch White and it hasn't gone well.

 

Yeah you make a good point about the Jays wanting to see what they have in Manoah before the trade deadline. I mean, they're knew what they've had all season given that he's been awful since Day 1. Not sure 2 minor league starts was going to change anything, but like you said they have more data than us.

 

Regardless, I hope we don't see Manoah throwing another pitch again at the MLB level this season. Let's hope he conditions himself better this offseason and returns in better overall shape for 2024.

[jaysblue]

About time you guys stopped over-rating Dunedin like it’s some voodoo lab

 

Yeah it's absurd how some posters on here were going gaga all over the pitching lab. It's overrated.

[L54]

I don't know how shiny its going to be hombre. Shiny is gonna cost...a lot. Are they prepared to move more of our higher end prospects to put more chips in?

 

Shiny to us as in upgrading the rusty old bike to the Canadian Tire special just in time for summer vacation

[Spanky99]

Yeah it's absurd how some posters on here were going gaga all over the pitching lab. It's overrated.

 

Pulling a jaysblue.

[Brownie19]

Yeah it's absurd how some posters on here were going gaga all over the pitching lab. It's overrated.

 

I'm curious how you form this opinion? Because it didn't help/fix Manoah in a span of 2 weeks?

[hanton]

I'm curious how you form this opinion? Because it didn't help/fix Manoah in a span of 2 weeks?

 

in 7+ years what has the lab produced in terms of major league pitching talent?

[The Cats Ass]

Ryu should be starting this weekend for the Jays instead of Buffalo.

[L54]

I’m sure the “factory” has all the hardware necessary but I do question the people in charge of the R&D side of it. No idea who that is or what their label is, but we should be closer to the top in terms of developing players with the investments made and the focus put on it.

[L54]

Ryu should be starting this weekend for the Jays instead of Buffalo.

 

No kidding

[max silver]

in 7+ years what has the lab produced in terms of major league pitching talent?

 

Try again. The pitching lab just came online something like a year and a half ago when the new player development complex opened up.

[Brownie19]

in 7+ years what has the lab produced in terms of major league pitching talent?

 

Huh? The new training facility opened in February 2021.

 

Did the lab help Berrios rebound this year? How about the new Tim Mayza we have? Did he change the break/speed on his slider in the lab? Did it help Ricky T add several MPH? Did it help the bundle of minor league relivers having a lot of success this year? I don't think any of us know because there's little information about who's in it and how it's being used. That's why I'm not sure how people make any definitive opinion at this point.

[Laika]

The pitching lab might be having immediate results if you are paying attention to some of the relievers coming through AA/AAA this year.

[Spanky99]

They've only had this PDC facility up for less than 2 years? What am I missing here?

[Spanky99]

The pitching lab might be having immediate results if you are paying attention to some of the relievers coming through AA/AAA this year.

 

I recall us going over this already, and we certainly won't know the results in starters for awhile yet, players have signed here specifically for access to the PDC year round, I don't see the problem, this place is freakin' great for the organization.

[max silver]

I recall us going over this already, and we certainly won't know the results in starters for awhile yet, players have signed here specifically for access to the PDC year round, I don't see the problem, this place is freakin' great for the organization.

 

Oh come on man, you should know that if Manoah wasn't fixed by spending a few weeks working out of the pitching lab then it's completely f***ing useless like the really smart posters here are letting on.

[Spanky99]

Oh come on man, you should know that if Manoah wasn't fixed by spending a few weeks working out of the pitching lab then it's completely f***ing useless like the really smart posters here are letting on.

 

lol