GDT: 1/3 Padres @ Blue Jays (7:07 et)

[hanton]

I question using Jansen to catch Manoah, he needs all the help he can get why chance it, should have started Kirk. but I get wanting both Belt and Jansen in the lineup which would leave Kirk on the bench - man has he fallen off. Kirk has to catch Manoah for his next start

[Spanky99]

I question using Jansen to catch Manoah, he needs all the help he can get why chance it, should have started Kirk. but I get wanting both Belt and Jansen in the lineup which would leave Kirk on the bench - man has he fallen off. Kirk has to catch Manoah for his next start

 

Why... Kirk isn't pitching for the man?

[max silver]

Why... Kirk isn't pitching for the man?

 

Kirk may have been able to get Manoah that low strike in the Soto at bat but he certainly wasn't going to coax Manoah into the strike zone more frequently.

[max silver]

It's not one bad start. It's a half season of bad starts, and most recently one extra bad one.

 

I don't think you are appreciating how horrible it is for a pitcher to throw 92 pitches and strike nobody out, while giving up 5 walks and a homer.

 

Bad starts happen. Aces can give up 10 earned runs. But last night, Manoah was bad in a very specific way that:

 

1) demonstrated in a small sample size that he sucks

2) was on trend with his entire season, which demonstrates the same thing

 

This is completely different than a good pitcher just having a random bad start where lots of hits fall in and they don't miss as many bats as usual.

 

Manoah had consecutive good starts before this clunker. Sure the quality of competition wasn't great but his command was much better and the stuff played up to a lot of strike outs. If it's another week or whatever until Ryu is ready they can give Manoah another start before sending him packing back to the minor league complex. If the alternative to another Manoah start is a bullpen day where the pen is blown up anyway I don't see a lot of risk in throwing Manoah out there again to see how he fares.

[hanton]

Why... Kirk isn't pitching for the man?

 

Kirk has a canon but in this case I'm referring to his catching skills, thought that was obvious

[gruber92]

If only Ross wasn't so f***ing stubborn in continuously trying to save face for "his guys", the team would be a lot better off. There are numerous examples over the years that I'm not going to dig into. Nothing personal against the man, but he's just not fit to be a successful GM. Let's see what he does at the trade deadline.

[Brownie19]

Kirk has a canon but in this case I'm referring to his catching skills, thought that was obvious

 

Manoah needs a hell of a lot more than a good framer to make him a ML pitcher. Jenny Craig would be a good start. Maybe JC can give us a deal if we sign up Manoah, Kirk and Vlad.

[Spanky99]

Kirk has a canon but in this case I'm referring to his catching skills, thought that was obvious

 

Kirk doesn't have a cannon, and his catching skills are excellent, but Jansen is NOT the problem, nor is his defense.

[gruber92]

Manoah had consecutive good starts before this clunker. Sure the quality of competition wasn't great but his command was much better and the stuff played up to a lot of strike outs. If it's another week or whatever until Ryu is ready they can give Manoah another start before sending him packing back to the minor league complex. If the alternative to another Manoah start is a bullpen day where the pen is blown up anyway I don't see a lot of risk in throwing Manoah out there again to see how he fares.

 

In all fairness, Manoah served up a lot of fatties vs the Tigers that normally wouldn't fair well with a competent line up.

[hanton]

Kirk doesn't have a cannon, and his catching skills are excellent, Jansen is NOT the problem.

 

I'm joking on his arm but not on his catching skills, he's a great receiver - very soft hands and very queit behind the plate. Jansen on the other hand with all that arm action constantly jerking his glove up and down is a far worse receiver. This is actually a skill and not all catchers have it.

 

of course Jansen is not THE problem but in this stage in Manoah's comeback I would have liked to see Kirk behind the plate just to give Manoah every oppotunity to succeed.

[gruber92]

Manoah needs a hell of a lot more than a good framer to make him a ML pitcher. Jenny Craig would be a good start. Maybe JC can give us a deal if we sign up Manoah, Kirk and Vlad.

 

Yeah.. I'm sick and tired of these fat f***s that aren't taking their careers seriously. They have every mechanism available at their feet to maintain a healthy lifestyle and act like professionals. The three of them showing up to camp in that condition is inexcusable.

 

If they were in the NFL, there's a good chance they'd be cut.

[Spanky99]

I'm joking on his arm but not on his catching skills, he's a great receiver - very soft hands and very queit behind the plate. Jansen on the other hand with all that arm action constantly jerking his glove up and down is a far worse receiver. This is actually a skill and not all catchers have it.

 

of course Jansen is not THE problem but in this stage in Manoah's comeback I would have liked to see Kirk behind the plate just to give Manoah every oppotunity to succeed.

 

Fair enough.

[Laika]

Manoah had consecutive good starts before this clunker. Sure the quality of competition wasn't great but his command was much better and the stuff played up to a lot of strike outs. If it's another week or whatever until Ryu is ready they can give Manoah another start before sending him packing back to the minor league complex. If the alternative to another Manoah start is a bullpen day where the pen is blown up anyway I don't see a lot of risk in throwing Manoah out there again to see how he fares.

 

How does this make any sense? The risk is that they throw away another game by letting literally the worst SP in baseball take the mound.

 

When the Jays have gone with Richards and/or Francis for bullpen games IIRC the results have been mostly fine. Much more competitive.

[hanton]

Yeah.. I'm sick and tired of these fat f***s that aren't taking their careers seriously. They have every mechanism available at their feet to maintain a healthy lifestyle and act like professionals. The three of them showing up to camp in that condition is inexcusable.

 

If they were in the NFL, there's a good chance they'd be cut.

 

I agree on this, all the resources in the world there's zero excuse to not be in shape coming into the season. I think teams (or at least the Jays in this case) don't want to mess with success. This goes for Kirk as well - silver slugger all star and now a bench bat

[max silver]

How does this make any sense? The risk is that they throw away another game by letting literally the worst SP in baseball take the mound.

 

When the Jays have gone with Richards and/or Francis for bullpen games IIRC the results have been mostly fine. Much more competitive.

 

The results of the bullpen games have generally been fine but the extra strain this placed on the pen wasn't something that could continue forever. If the club trusted Francis to throw more than a few innings at a time some of the extra innings on the rest of the pen could have been mitigated somewhat, but Francis has been giving up a ton of really hard contact so I can understand the hesitance.

[Terminator]

Bringing back Manoah early hasn't really bit us yet. We got one good start and one clunker. But it's obvious that the clunkers are going to continue. He was terrible last night. Yeah he got squeezed a couple of times but that's going to happen when you have zero command. Needs to be getting some K's via whiffs not begging umpires to make the call.

 

If they want to give him one more start to make double sure that he still sucks that's fine but he needs to be replaced by Ryu after that who should be ready and the team should consider a trade on top of it.

[max silver]

Bringing back Manoah early hasn't really bit us yet. We got one good start and one clunker. But it's obvious that the clunkers are going to continue. He was terrible last night. Yeah he got squeezed a couple of times but that's going to happen when you have zero command. Needs to be getting some K's via whiffs not begging umpires to make the call.

 

If they want to give him one more start to make double sure that he still sucks that's fine but he needs to be replaced by Ryu after that who should be ready and the team should consider a trade on top of it.

 

In his first start back Manoah featured really poor stuff but made up for it with very good command of his pitches. Stuff+ was only 82 vs location+ of 112. I'd imagine his stuff metric wasn't any better last night but the location was really bad on top of that. I certainly wouldn't want to bet on him being able to reliably locate his pitches on any given day given what we've seen from him this season.

[Brownie19]

In his first start back Manoah featured really poor stuff but made up for it with very good command of his pitches. Stuff+ was only 82 vs location+ of 112. I'd imagine his stuff metric wasn't any better last night but the location was really bad on top of that. I certainly wouldn't want to bet on him being able to reliably locate his pitches on any given day given what we've seen from him this season.

 

First I'd seen the Stuff+ / Location+ numbers from his start v. Detroit. That Stuff+ should have been a MASSIVE red flag. He's f***ing done boys. What a disappointment.

[max silver]

First I'd seen the Stuff+ / Location+ numbers from his start v. Detroit. That Stuff+ should have been a MASSIVE red flag. He's f***ing done boys. What a disappointment.

 

The only thing I hope for is that Alek was intentionally throwing at something like 85% effort to get his pitches into the strike zone more often.

[Stangstag]

The Jays would rather take a bullet to the chest than start Bowden Francis, and there’s no one else in the minors that they’d spot start in all likelihood. They’d rather lose games with Manoah than try to win with someone else, and I’m not sure why. It’s not like the stuff is there but the results aren’t. He looks like s*** and the numbers back it up.

 

If they miss the playoffs by a game (again) then they can just blame themselves at that point. Manoah is definitely starting Sunday. They are waiting for another Astros type start where he gets destroyed before they even think about a move.

 

Yeah definitely seems that way, and its very puzzling…. If he isn’t out of the rotation by the time Ryu is ready then idk what’s even happening. You can’t justify keeping him in the rotation over Kikuchi

[Stangstag]

It's not one bad start. It's a half season of bad starts, and most recently one extra bad one.

 

I don't think you are appreciating how horrible it is for a pitcher to throw 92 pitches and strike nobody out, while giving up 5 walks and a homer.

 

Bad starts happen. Aces can give up 10 earned runs. But last night, Manoah was bad in a very specific way that:

 

1) demonstrated in a small sample size that he sucks

2) was on trend with his entire season, which demonstrates the same thing

 

This is completely different than a good pitcher just having a random bad start where lots of hits fall in and they don't miss as many bats as usual.

 

You read the first couple sentences and ignored the rest of what I wrote…

[Stangstag]

If only Ross wasn't so f***ing stubborn in continuously trying to save face for "his guys", the team would be a lot better off. There are numerous examples over the years that I'm not going to dig into. Nothing personal against the man, but he's just not fit to be a successful GM. Let's see what he does at the trade deadline.

 

You could say he has too much of a heart maybe?? They were really slow to move Kikuchi out of the rotation last year too. Cavan has been given more opportunities than most FOs would allow too. Keeping Bo at SS instead of finding a top defender when they keep talking about the importance of “run prevention”. Several odd decisions placing too much faith in guys that don’t necessarily deserve it.

[Spanky99]

Everyone DID question the front office decision to bring him back.

 

Detroit is awful.

 

There is bad starts and then there is what Manoah did last night. MLB quality pitchers don't really ever provide an outing with 92 pitches, 3 IP, 5 walks, no strikeouts, and a homer given up.

 

They don't even need a decent replacement because Manoah looks like a sub-replacement level player. I'd feel way better with Bowden Francis on the mound. Throwing Kloffenstein to the sharks is probably better. Heck, Casey f***ing Lawrence might outperform him.

 

I'd just pull the plug now and bullpen game his next turn up. Or spot start Bowden.

 

I just read that he opted out of his contract the day before that outing. Hah!

[John_Havok]

[Spanky99]

ChILDREN OF THE CORN!!!