General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Masterbather]

We are an 89 win team that has privided disappointing results, what is a successful playoffs for you? I have never been a it is win the whole thing or tear it up type. My expectations are set at making the world series, but would get over it if they lose to Houston or in the CS. Losing in the Wild Card is a failure but not a complete disaster.

 

Where does everyone else stand with this...partially preparing myself as a mod for the uproar level

It's not exactly how I look at it. I look at it as where we are versus where we should be. When we made the playoffs in the COVID year, I didn't expect much, any positive results would have been a huge win.

 

This team was supposed to be a championship contender, I can't look at them as an 89 win team looking to overachieve because it was supposedly built to win a championship this year and so anything but a real competitive run at the title is a disappointment for this team given where it's supposed to be.

 

Granted, I don't think it's a championship caliber team so in my mind that's already a failure, but we'll see.

[max silver]

To the first point, I understand the developmental argument, the point is it's secondary if he could help us win a championship now, any development can be put on hold if it helps you win a championship. Slightly delaying his development as a starter is not the end of the world. There's also the experience argument that you already made, to pitch in the postseason against the best teams and hitters in the world is incredible. Also it allows our major league coaches to see him first hand.

 

To the bullpen depth argument, you already made this one as well, there is no such thing, and there never will be such a thing, as too much great pitching. Especially with the way bullpens get used in the postseason. You run through five or six guys a game. You need as much elite talent as you can get and unless you have a bullpen full of closers there's always room for improvement. Every little bit counts. Especially for a team that is going to rely heavily on pitching.

 

You're right that he may not be ready, command wise, but you've got to take a look at an arm like that at this level. Just try it. Maybe Pete Walker spots something in his delivery and helps him. You never know unless you try. Either it works and we have a stud in our bullpen or it doesn't and you carry out the plan you had. Outside of Kikuchi if he's in the pen, we really don't have a power strikeout guy in our bullpen from the left side. Would definitely come in handy.

 

Anyhow, it doesn't matter now, it is what it is I just wish the front office was a little more aggressive, especially for a team that's trying to win.

 

Still beating this dead horse I see. I just can't see how it's worth throwing away several months of development of Tiedemann as a starter on the off chance that he can retire MLB batters out of the bullpen. He would have needed to be called up in August to test this out, and then he would have likely been limited to low leverage spots at first with limited opportunities to actually get into games based on how many close games the team plays. Then he would have eventually needed to work his way into more trusted leverage innings over time with sustained success in lower pressure spots. This could very well remove Tiedemann as a legitimate depth starter option for next season as he would receive far fewer innings and not have a chance to build his innings base for the future, and this could even stretch a further season into 2025 with a further limited available workload.

 

Bringing him up would have necessitated sending down a deserving reliever to AAA or even cutting bait completely and losing an asset from the team as well. All of this would also entail starting his service clock early as previously mentioned as well. This could lead to situations such as Tiedemann becoming a super 2 player and reaching salary arbitration sooner, costing the team a very large extra amount of money for a single season potential bullpen bump.

[Stangstag]

WC round loss = total failure

competitive ALDS loss = disappointing

uncompetitive ALDS loss = big flop

ALCS loss = golf claps

WS loss = crying golf claps, proud of the effort boys

WS win = I'll drive to Spanky's house and hug him

 

Agree with this

[Delgalladay]

WC round loss = total failure

competitive ALDS loss = disappointing

uncompetitive ALDS loss = big flop

ALCS loss = golf claps

WS loss = crying golf claps, proud of the effort boys

WS win = I'll drive to Spanky's house and hug him

 

Another wild card sweep is a fire worthy failure.

[Governator]

WC round loss = total failure

competitive ALDS loss = disappointing

uncompetitive ALDS loss = big flop

ALCS loss = golf claps

WS loss = crying golf claps, proud of the effort boys

WS win = I'll drive to Spanky's house and hug him

 

Agreed. Also, Twins have lost 18 postseason games in a row... if we can't make it 20, we've failed.

[Laika]

Agreed. Also, Twins have lost 18 postseason games in a row... if we can't make it 20, we've failed.

 

Two truly miserable fan bases squaring off, lmao

[Omar]

We are an 89 win team that has privided disappointing results, what is a successful playoffs for you? I have never been a it is win the whole thing or tear it up type. My expectations are set at making the world series, but would get over it if they lose to Houston or in the CS. Losing in the Wild Card is a failure but not a complete disaster.

 

Where does everyone else stand with this...partially preparing myself as a mod for the uproar level

 

Getting to playoffs= below expectation

Winning wildcard series= at expectation

Getting to ALCS = Successful season

Winning ALCS = exceeded expectations

Winning World Series= read the posts of the doomers/gloomers saying it was pure luck and Atkins has not built a sustainable pipeline of young players.

[Krylian]

Agreed. Also, Twins have lost 18 postseason games in a row... if we can't make it 20, we've failed.

 

You've just doomed us by putting that 18 game streak out there. It's a foregone conclusion now.

[Governator]

You've just doomed us by putting that 18 game streak out there. It's a foregone conclusion now.

 

knock on wood

[L54]

If they win the WC and don’t get embarrassed in the divisional series I’ll be satisfied. Keeping expectations low this year which should make for easier viewing

[glory]

Yeah get past the Twins and lose to Houston would be fine with me. Anything better than that would be gravy. After last year I’m not getting my hopes up for anything.

[jaysblue]

We are an 89 win team that has privided disappointing results, what is a successful playoffs for you? I have never been a it is win the whole thing or tear it up type. My expectations are set at making the world series, but would get over it if they lose to Houston or in the CS. Losing in the Wild Card is a failure but not a complete disaster.

 

Where does everyone else stand with this...partially preparing myself as a mod for the uproar level

 

For me winning the Wildcard matchup and playing a competitive DS is a must with this group. I'll be satisfied with those results given the way this team has played this season. If they make the ALCS, would definitely be excited and would consider it a huge success!

 

We're already in Year 3 of their 5 year window. I hope they make some noise in this Postseason so at least it's something to build off of for the 2024 season. An exit in the WC round would be a huge disappointment.

[Masterbather]

Still beating this dead horse I see. I just can't see how it's worth throwing away several months of development of Tiedemann as a starter on the off chance that he can retire MLB batters out of the bullpen. He would have needed to be called up in August to test this out, and then he would have likely been limited to low leverage spots at first with limited opportunities to actually get into games based on how many close games the team plays. Then he would have eventually needed to work his way into more trusted leverage innings over time with sustained success in lower pressure spots. This could very well remove Tiedemann as a legitimate depth starter option for next season as he would receive far fewer innings and not have a chance to build his innings base for the future, and this could even stretch a further season into 2025 with a further limited available workload.

 

Bringing him up would have necessitated sending down a deserving reliever to AAA or even cutting bait completely and losing an asset from the team as well. All of this would also entail starting his service clock early as previously mentioned as well. This could lead to situations such as Tiedemann becoming a super 2 player and reaching salary arbitration sooner, costing the team a very large extra amount of money for a single season potential bullpen bump.

 

To your first point, I don't think it removes several months I think that's an exaggeration, especially the 2025 part. He's pitching limited innings per start anyway. It might have cost him seven or eight additional innings. They would only keep him here if he was legit, and if he's legit and you're trying to win a world series, end of story. He stays and helps you try to win. That takes precedence. You can continue to work his arm up in the off-season and carry forward with whatever plan you want. It wouldn't have been detrimental. The experience is also more valuable than facing minor leagues schmoes in minor league parks.

 

To your second point, I don't care about sending down some schmuck for a stud. Also don't care about paying him sooner if he helps you win. Championships are the point. It's the only thing that matters. A chance to add a stud pitcher to your team needs to be done if it's available.

[jaysblue]

The window for this Jays group is closing more as every season goes by without a World Series. Jays should have been a team that has the best or second best record in the AL and a serious contender to make the ALCS/World Series by now. Instead they've just been a borderline WC team. Anything can happen in the Postseason at least so happy the Jays are in. Even as underdogs, hope they have less pressure on them and play loose and good baseball.

[RobinThicc]

Im not sleeping on the twins. 2 good starters, some pop in their lineup.

[Jonn]

Im not sleeping on the twins. 2 good starters, some pop in their lineup.

 

Its less about the Twins and more about not playing at the Trop.

[jaysthebest]

There's a slight chance the Jays' offense will score any run off Sonny Gray. I still remember that 4 games against the Yankees.

[DonJays]

Getting to playoffs= below expectation

Winning wildcard series= at expectation

Getting to ALCS = Successful season

Winning ALCS = exceeded expectations

Winning World Series= read the posts of the doomers/gloomers saying it was pure luck and Atkins has not built a sustainable pipeline of young players.

 

Agreed with this. If they win the wildcard and lose the next series in competitive fashion it’s a successful season. People’s expectations aren’t realistic

[Jays24]

Its less about the Twins and more about not playing at the Trop.

 

Exactly... how cocky are you allowed to be when you only finished 2 games ahead of them. This is all about not playing at the Trop, which doesn't mean you cant still get your ass kicked if we don't bring it.

[connorp]

So a one game sample in a fake simulated game means we should be ultra concerned about Lewis, yet you get your panties in a knot when I use samples of several months in my posts. Totally checks out.

 

He’s like a .900 OPS so far with #1 overall pedigree. Don’t compare Biggio to him

[John_Havok]

Agreed with this. If they win the wildcard and lose the next series in competitive fashion it’s a successful season. People’s expectations aren’t realistic

 

I don't think expectations are unrealistic. Any team that makes the playoffs has a shot at a deep run, regardless of how flawed they may be. Baseball is a weird game where long seasons and hundreds of PAs, and tens of thousands of pitches are thrown before you can really start to make somewhat accurate predictions of long term performance of players individually and teams as a whole. A playoff series is such a tiny sample size of overall data that wild swings one way or the other are pretty common.

 

Atlanta squeaks into the playoffs two years ago by the skin of their teeth and wins it all.

 

Next season they come back with a much better team overall, bounced in the DS by the Phillies who snuck into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth. Phillies lose the WS to Houston.

 

Every series has a favorite and an underdog, but the gaps between the two are so much smaller than most people truly realize.

 

Speaking of which, Jays have 89 wins, Twins have 87. Twins won their division, Jays are the 3rd wildcard. Twins are at home, Jays on the road. Who's the favorite?

[Omar]

I don't think expectations are unrealistic. Any team that makes the playoffs has a shot at a deep run, regardless of how flawed they may be. Baseball is a weird game where long seasons and hundreds of PAs, and tens of thousands of pitches are thrown before you can really start to make somewhat accurate predictions of long term performance of players individually and teams as a whole. A playoff series is such a tiny sample size of overall data that wild swings one way or the other are pretty common.

 

Atlanta squeaks into the playoffs two years ago by the skin of their teeth and wins it all.

 

Next season they come back with a much better team overall, bounced in the DS by the Phillies who snuck into the playoffs by the skin of their teeth. Phillies lose the WS to Houston.

 

Every series has a favorite and an underdog, but the gaps between the two are so much smaller than most people truly realize.

 

Speaking of which, Jays have 89 wins, Twins have 87. Twins won their division, Jays are the 3rd wildcard. Twins are at home, Jays on the road. Who's the favorite?

 

Every team has a chance to run the table and win the WS. If you "expect" the Jays to win the whole thing, your "expectations" are unrealistic.

[WryNGinger]

Unless the Jays win every game, the playoff daily GDTs are going to be filled with most bi-polar, pessimistic yet jolly *******s this side of the nuthouse.

 

I imagine this will be true. I have most of those f***-nuts on ignore...

 

happy happy...joy joy. R&S ftw

[Spanky99]

You didn't make a single meaningful point.

 

He has a fresh arm because he didn't pitch much, that's a bonus.

 

Who cares if he's 20 years old? He wouldn't be the first.

 

No one's stopping him from being a future starter.

 

It should have been on the table.

 

No reason not to take a look at him. None.

 

I don't know what's hard to understand, here? He was injured twice this year, they likely had him as a pen option if his playing time wasn't interrupted, it is what it is.

[Spanky99]

So a one game sample in a fake simulated game means we should be ultra concerned about Lewis, yet you get your panties in a knot when I use samples of several months in my posts. Totally checks out.

 

lol... mint!

[Spanky99]

WC round loss = total failure

competitive ALDS loss = disappointing

uncompetitive ALDS loss = big flop

ALCS loss = golf claps

WS loss = crying golf claps, proud of the effort boys

WS win = I'll drive to Spanky's house and hug him

 

It's not far at least...

[John_Havok]

Every team has a chance to run the table and win the WS. If you "expect" the Jays to win the whole thing, your "expectations" are unrealistic.

 

I find most fans’ expectations are completely unrealistic at the best of times. The expect their team to go 162-0 but all losses are all the manager and front offices fault. They expect to never lose a game once their team is ahead by one in the 1st inning. They expect that players can randomly summon additional skills during “clutch” whenever it’s important but never seem to understand why the player can’t summon that same skill any other time.

 

The list of idiotic fan expectations is long and distinguished, just like my ignore list.

[Omar]

I find most fans’ expectations are completely unrealistic at the best of times. The expect their team to go 162-0 but all losses are all the manager and front offices fault. They expect to never lose a game once their team is ahead by one in the 1st inning. They expect that players can randomly summon additional skills during “clutch” whenever it’s important but never seem to understand why the player can’t summon that same skill any other time.

 

The list of idiotic fan expectations is long and distinguished, just like my ignore list.

 

Yep. The one thing that seperates this Jays team from others is that during the course of the season the other AL playoff teams had a run where they played their best baseball. Baltimore, maybe the whole season was one big run, Seattle came on in August, the Twins had their time, and Texas had a definite hot streak and then a down turn and then back. Houston is houston.

 

But the Jays never seemed to play their best baseball hitting on all cylinders. It seems they played just below expectations and never had that big streak. My hope is that they rise to the level of their capabilities. If they do that, then they can be beat almost anybody (Braves being the exception). Should be interesting.

[Spanky99]

The power ranking write up on the Jays from Yahoo was funny...

 

8. Toronto Blue Jays

 

This is a law of averages bet. Almost none of the Blue Jays’ hitters has played up to their career standards, even as the starting rotation asserted itself as one of baseball’s best behind Kevin Gausman, Chris Bassitt and a rejuvenated Jose Berrios. If Vladimir Guerrero Jr. or Bo Bichette or George Springer — or, hold on to your hats, all three — kicks into a higher gear in the coming week or so, this team could easily transform into a poutine-powered facsimile of the 2022 Phillies.

[Stangstag]

Tickets are down to like $15 on stubhub for tomorrow’s game lol.

 

Anyone within driving distance??