General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

We need to get Masterbather playing some fantasy baseball lol.

[max silver]

I know he wouldn't be eligible now but this is something they really should have thought about and quite frankly done earlier. He could've been lightning in a bottle. Worst case scenario, he's not ready and you send him back. There was no harm in trying. Wasted opportunity IMO.

 

Tiedemann has barely pitched this season and I'd much rather he continue to work on building up his innings base in a lower pressure environment rather than see the team make a panic move and bring him up to pitch in the bullpen. The guy missed most of the season due to injury and I simply don't think it would be in his best interest to immediately thrust him into the middle of a pennant race.

 

I get that you are all Blue Jays suck all the time but the team already has one of MLB's best bullpens as it is already. The team has really struggled to score runs at times and have played themselves into the precipice of a playoff spot based on having a really good pitching staff and defence. There is no need to press such an inexperienced pitcher into major league service so soon.

[Masterbather]

We need to get Masterbather playing some fantasy baseball lol.

 

I've done extremely well on a fantasy baseball, football mostly, but I just don't have the patience anymore.

[Masterbather]

Tiedemann has barely pitched this season and I'd much rather he continue to work on building up his innings base in a lower pressure environment rather than see the team make a panic move and bring him up to pitch in the bullpen. The guy missed most of the season due to injury and I simply don't think it would be in his best interest to immediately thrust him into the middle of a pennant race.

 

I get that you are all Blue Jays suck all the time but the team already has one of MLB's best bullpens as it is already. The team has really struggled to score runs at times and have played themselves into the precipice of a playoff spot based on having a really good pitching staff and defence. There is no need to press such an inexperienced pitcher into major league service so soon.

 

No reason not to take a look at him. No such thing as too much pitching especially when, like I said, you have only one elite guy. I don't care how many pretty good pitchers you have, you always substitute elite for good if you have a chance.

 

You don't take postseason appearances for granted, you take a look at him and you could have had lightning in a bottle. There's no downside, absolutely no downside. He also gets to work with the Major League coaching staff, gets to bend the ear of major league vets.

 

I didn't expect the Blue Jays to ever do something like this because they don't have the balls to be that aggressive. It's just a shame, I wish they had a more aggressive mentality.

[John_Havok]

I know he wouldn't be eligible now but this is something they really should have thought about and quite frankly done earlier. He could've been lightning in a bottle. Worst case scenario, he's not ready and you send him back. There was no harm in trying. Wasted opportunity IMO.

 

Lol, there’s plenty of possible harm in trying. You can’t manage a baseball team long term by just tossing guys on the 40 man roster whenever there’s the latent thought of wanting to get a look at someone. It’s not that simple.

 

In MLB you cant guarantee X number of innings to any pitcher on a game to game basis let alone the kind of regular schedule you need for a developing arm. That’s what the minors is for

[Masterbather]

Lol, there’s plenty of possible harm in trying. You can’t manage a baseball team long term by just tossing guys on the 40 man roster whenever there’s the latent thought of wanting to get a look at someone. It’s not that simple.

 

In MLB you cant guarantee X number of innings to any pitcher on a game to game basis let alone the kind of regular schedule you need for a developing arm. That’s what the minors is for

 

That's all secondary in importance if he could help us now. Secondary by a mile.

If he came up, and he was outstanding, and we had him f***ing people up in the postseason there would be nobody talking about him not getting innings in the minor leagues in September. Nobody. Make up for that later. Nothing is more important than winning. Would also be quite the experience for him, better than anything he'll see in the minors or the AFL. And if it didn't work, then it didn't work, you send him to the fall league and whatever.

 

I maintain the downside was very small compared to what could have been the upside. They should have tried it.

[max silver]

That's all secondary in importance if he could help us now. Secondary by a mile.

If he came up, and he was outstanding, and we had him f***ing people up in the postseason there would be nobody talking about him not getting innings in the minor leagues in September. Nobody. Make up for that later. Nothing is more important than winning. Would also be quite the experience for him, better than anything he'll see in the minors or the AFL. And if it didn't work, then it didn't work, you send him to the fall league and whatever.

 

I maintain the downside was very small compared to what could have been the upside. They should have tried it.

 

I would counter that plotting a proper course of action for the long term success of a potential ace is far more important than the short term potential (far from guaranteed) boost to an already excellent bullpen.

[Masterbather]

I would counter that plotting a proper course of action for the long term success of a potential ace is far more important than the short term potential (far from guaranteed) boost to an already excellent bullpen.

 

When you have a postseason opportunity, no, nothing is more important. Absolutely nothing if he helps you win now. Not for me.

 

Besides, it either works and he gets the most incredible experience and opportunity of his life, or he's not quite ready and you carry on with the plan.

 

There is never going to be such a thing as too much great pitching when you're trying to win a world series. Besides he would be supplanting a guy like Cabrera, or one of the long guys, so what? You can easily blow through six relievers in a single postseason game.

[G-Snarls]

I just noticed that the Mariners and Astros both have a batter run differential than we do

 

Goddamn we need more bats working

[mellowgold]

I just noticed that the Mariners and Astros both have a batter run differential than we do

 

Goddamn we need more bats working

 

Even the Twins have a better run differential than we do.

[Stangstag]

Even the Twins have a better run differential than we do.

 

All that matters is the FUN differential baby

[Jonn]

All that matters is the FUN differential baby

 

Sadly I don't know if we have that either : (

 

We did tonight though! Tonight was fun! : )

[John_Havok]

That's all secondary in importance if he could help us now. Secondary by a mile.

If he came up, and he was outstanding, and we had him f***ing people up in the postseason there would be nobody talking about him not getting innings in the minor leagues in September. Nobody. Make up for that later. Nothing is more important than winning. Would also be quite the experience for him, better than anything he'll see in the minors or the AFL. And if it didn't work, then it didn't work, you send him to the fall league and whatever.

 

I maintain the downside was very small compared to what could have been the upside. They should have tried it.

 

This is flawed logic. Experimenting with Tiedemannwhen you can't guarantee him enough innings would be detrimental at best to his chances of being a meaningful starter down the stretch next season if needed.

 

Short sighted ideas like this are silly. Thinking you'll just deal with the additional innings later is kicking the can down the road when you don't need to

[Masterbather]

This is flawed logic. Experimenting with Tiedemannwhen you can't guarantee him enough innings would be detrimental at best to his chances of being a meaningful starter down the stretch next season if needed.

 

Short sighted ideas like this are silly. Thinking you'll just deal with the additional innings later is kicking the can down the road when you don't need to

 

Don't need to? We're trying to win a world series. That's the need to. It's neither silly nor short-sighted. It's the whole point.

 

I'm not thinking about down the stretch next season, we're in the playoff hunt this season, who knows what next season will bring. Deal with it when you get there. If he's dominating in the playoffs, nobody anywhere would be complaining about AAA innings. Who knows how well it might actually benefit him? Who knows how much it might have benefited us? Nobody knows because they didn't try.

 

We would only keep him here if he was succeeding. Having our major league coaches see him in this environment first hand would also be useful. If they could see he wasn't quite ready, just send him back and carry on with the offseason plan. The kid will be fine. It won't hurt him any. Throw him in the deep end for a minute, maybe he'll swim.

 

He may be the second most talented pitcher we have at our disposal after Gausman and we didn't even take a look at him. 6'4" lefty with serious strikeout stuff? Thank you very much, I'll have another, please!

 

Be aggressive, take a chance on talent. Try to win a championship. Any thought that this would somehow be detrimental to his development I think is way overblown. When you put the upside on the scale versus the downside, the upside breaks the scale.

[Carlos Danger]

This is flawed logic. Experimenting with Tiedemannwhen you can't guarantee him enough innings would be detrimental at best to his chances of being a meaningful starter down the stretch next season if needed.

 

Short sighted ideas like this are silly. Thinking you'll just deal with the additional innings later is kicking the can down the road when you don't need to

 

David Price. That is exactly what the Rays did in 2008. It never screwed up Price and Price was a huge weapon in their WS run.

[max silver]

David Price. That is exactly what the Rays did in 2008. It never screwed up Price and Price was a huge weapon in their WS run.

 

David Price came out of college throwing 133 innings in his final year. He was about as close to major league ready as you can find out of the draft and made his MLB debut at age 22 after throwing 109 innings in the minors that season. Ricky Tiedemann by comparison has only thrown 122 innings in his entire career and would be debuting at age 20. The Jays have been very aggressive with promotions when they deem a player being ready for prime time (Manoah debuting with very little time in the minors, Kirk coming up straight from A ball etc.) but I would still side with being a little more cautious with Tiedemann given his importance to the long term success of the organization. Nearly half of this team's salary obligations are tied up in the starting rotation and they really need to start developing more of their own pitching if long term sustainability is to be realistic.

[Carlos Danger]

David Price came out of college throwing 133 innings in his final year. He was about as close to major league ready as you can find out of the draft and made his MLB debut at age 22 after throwing 109 innings in the minors that season. Ricky Tiedemann by comparison has only thrown 122 innings in his entire career and would be debuting at age 20. The Jays have been very aggressive with promotions when they deem a player being ready for prime time (Manoah debuting with very little time in the minors, Kirk coming up straight from A ball etc.) but I would still side with being a little more cautious with Tiedemann given his importance to the long term success of the organization. Nearly half of this team's salary obligations are tied up in the starting rotation and they really need to start developing more of their own pitching if long term sustainability is to be realistic.

 

Price got into 5 games and pitched 14 innings. However, one of those games was a start. Lets say he pitched 5 innings in the start. That is 9 ip of relief.

 

We couldn’t get 9 ip in doses of 1 or 2 ip from Tideman without f***ing him up long term?

 

The IL actually saved his arm this year a little and be needs some more IP.

 

Not saying we should. I am just saying we could and should if we really needed to for some reason, injuries etc.

[max silver]

Price got into 5 games and pitched 14 innings. However, one of those games was a start. Lets say he pitched 5 innings in the start. That is 9 ip of relief.

 

We couldn’t get 9 ip in doses of 1 or 2 ip from Tideman without f***ing him up long term?

 

The IL actually saved his arm this year a little and be needs some more IP.

 

Not saying we should. I am just saying we could and should if we really needed to for some reason, injuries etc.

 

I'd have no issue with the team calling Tiedemann up to help the team if it was a break glass in case of emergency type of situation with the pitching staff but that was far from the case this season. They had really good health in the starting rotation and the bullpen had enough depth to cover the occasional short term injury as well.

[John_Havok]

Price got into 5 games and pitched 14 innings. However, one of those games was a start. Lets say he pitched 5 innings in the start. That is 9 ip of relief.

 

We couldn’t get 9 ip in doses of 1 or 2 ip from Tideman without f***ing him up long term?

 

The IL actually saved his arm this year a little and be needs some more IP.

 

Not saying we should. I am just saying we could and should if we really needed to for some reason, injuries etc.

 

I agree with you here, I wasnt meaning to suggest that RT should just be held down regardless, just that bringing him up as MB suggests just to get a look because maybe he helps...especially with his injuries this year where he needs to be guaranteed innings and pitches in a place were results matter far less.

[BatFlip]

I agree with you here, I wasnt meaning to suggest that RT should just be held down regardless, just that bringing him up as MB suggests just to get a look because maybe he helps...especially with his injuries this year where he needs to be guaranteed innings and pitches in a place were results matter far less.

 

Totally agree. The kid needs to get innings and continue to develop so he can make a run at the rotation next year. The Jays' bullpen is deep and one of the best in the majors, trailing only the Rays by WHIP in the AL this year. Maybe you do try to catch lightening in a bottle if the team has some gaping holes on the pitching front.... but they don't. The probable juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[Terminator]

[Krylian]

 

Very fortunate with health on the pitching side this season.

[Terminator]

Very fortunate with health on the pitching side this season.

 

Luck plays a role but Atkins seems to target pitchers with crystal clear injury histories. The training staff seems to do a good job keeping them healthy as well. Other than Manoah who somehow mysteriously injured some of the fat in his arm.

[L54]

When would you realistically expect Tiedemann to come into the game during the post season? Like you’re throwing Gausman, Berrios, Bassitt and Kooch. After that you have Romano, Hicks, Swanson, Mayza and Green in front of him so he’s maybe the sixth guy out of the pen. If they’re bounced in two or three games there’s a very real possibility he doesn’t even make his debut.

[L54]

Very fortunate with health on the pitching side this season.

 

Yup. It would be interesting to see when the last time a team had four starters make 31+ starts.

[jaysblue]

Luck plays a role but Atkins seems to target pitchers with crystal clear injury histories. The training staff seems to do a good job keeping them healthy as well. Other than Manoah who somehow mysteriously injured some of the fat in his arm.

 

Didn't Atkins target Ryu to a big contract a couple of years ago? How about other guys like Tanner Roark, Chase Anderson, Clay Buchholz? They couldn't stay healthy and weren't effective.

 

Kudos to Atkins for putting together a strong rotation. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the rotation has been one of the teams main strengths season and Atkins deserves credit. But if it's bad luck for when players under perform or get injured, then we can say the same thing how there is some luck involved when an entire rotation stays healthy.

 

As well, $93M is tied up to all those arms moving forward, which is a big chunk of the payroll. What happens if someone like Berrios or Bassitt or Gausman regress or miss time due to injury?

[jaysblue]

Yup. It would be interesting to see when the last time a team had four starters make 31+ starts.

 

Just off the top of my head: Maybe the Phillies in 2010? One of the Braves or Dodgers teams from the last couple of seasons? Astros? Nats when they won a World Series? Tough to recall.

[BatFlip]

Yup. It would be interesting to see when the last time a team had four starters make 31+ starts.

 

30 is kind of one of those arbitrary round numbers, but they were pretty damn close in 2014 and 2015.

 

In 2016, the rotation had even better health/durability:

 

Stroman - 32

JA Happ - 32

Sanchez - 30 (hard to believe now)

Estrada - 29

Dickey - 29

 

Not as rare as you would think to have a healthy 4 out of 5 starting pitchers, but definitely some good luck this year for the rotation with injuries AND performance (Manoah a big, pardon the pun, exception).

[G-Snarls]

Yup. It would be interesting to see when the last time a team had four starters make 31+ starts.

 

Also only the 4th team in history to have 4 guys with 175+ strikeouts

 

They're the reason we're making the post season. Hopefully the bats produce enough to actually make it somewhere.

[Terminator]

Didn't Atkins target Ryu to a big contract a couple of years ago? How about other guys like Tanner Roark, Chase Anderson, Clay Buchholz? They couldn't stay healthy and weren't effective.

 

Wow, this is like criticizing a supermodel because she's got a gap in her teeth. Atkins has been great with FA pitchers. Yeah Ryu got TJS. Every team will have to deal with it. Roark was a bad contract. Chase Anderson was acquired for Spanberger and Buchholz was signed for 3 mil. On the flipside he signed Robbie Ray for 1 year and got a Cy Young out of him. Signed Gausman in FA and the guy is a Top 10 starter in all of baseball. Bassitt is delivering, Berrios is delivering, Kikuchi, etc.

 

Kudos to Atkins for putting together a strong rotation. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the rotation has been one of the teams main strengths season and Atkins deserves credit. But if it's bad luck for when players under perform or get injured, then we can say the same thing how there is some luck involved when an entire rotation stays healthy.

 

The very first thing I typed was "luck plays a role".

 

As well, $93M is tied up to all those arms moving forward, which is a big chunk of the payroll. What happens if someone like Berrios or Bassitt or Gausman regress or miss time due to injury?

 

It's bound to happen. Hopefully Tiedemann fulfills his promise by that point.