General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Stangstag]

Trading KK to a contender, moving Varsho to CF, and acquiring a LF is the best option, IMO. If you want to maximize 2023 wins then keeping KK and replacing Varsho probably makes more sense but that’s not happening due to Varsho having more years of control and more upside overall. I think 2024 Varsho as a full time CF will be better, but that doesn’t help in 2023. I can’t see Atkins trading KK, though. Most likely they will trade for a RHB OF who can hit lefties well and see if they can make that work.

 

Another thing that needs to be done at this point is Jansen needs to start more than Kirk. Maybe Kirk gets to live off his first half in 2022 a bit longer but a singles hitting fatty who is slower than the people posting on this forum is not an asset offensively. Let him backup Jansen more often.

 

I feel like this could be solved somewhat by having Varsho start at C in favor of Kirk with certain matchups. But that’s a whole other issue, FO seems to not want Varsho catching and I don’t think you can mess with the catcher/pitcher relationships right now

[jaysblue]

Absolutely 0 chance that happens. Thats the type of clubhouse crushing trade that can tank a season.

 

Yeah wouldn't make any sense trading KK unless the Jays were selling. He's still a valuable piece and asset on a winning team.

 

Varsho just needs to start hitting plain and simple. He doesn't have to be elite offensively. Just post a 100 wRC+ at least. He needs to improve on his .214/.277/.368 line, which is awful. If Varsho can just be a similar hitter like Max Muncy, I would take that in a heartbeat!

[Carlos Danger]

Duval would be the best fit IMO for a RHB. Reason being you are not sacrificing D like some of the other names out there.

 

A few others who would work, Renfroe, Joc, Profar (not as much power) Do not bring back Grichuck.. High K low contact Colorado mirage and his D sucked for his position.

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah wouldn't make any sense trading KK unless the Jays were selling. He's still a valuable piece and asset on a winning team.

 

Varsho just needs to start hitting plain and simple. He doesn't have to be elite offensively. Just post a 100 wRC+ at least. He needs to improve on his .214/.277/.368 line, which is awful. If Varsho can just be a similar hitter like Max Muncy, I would take that in a heartbeat!

 

I really think it had to do with the coaches and organizational approach. That is the only thing I can think of to explain the dramatic difference. I think he got to the Jays, they said this is what we would like you to try to do, and now he is in some messed up purgatory of trying to go back to what worked but using the team approach and he has lost the edge as they said in Top Gun.

 

I truly think he needs a full boot reset back to basics and what worked in AZ and the minors.

[Spanky99]

Varsho's having a lower than normal batted ball luck and the power is gone, I expect him to rebound soon, I hope.

[Olerud363]

I'm more concerned about the process than the results. He just looks kind of hopeless against a diversity of pitchers. High fastballs = kryptonite.

 

He honestly just swings too much. You could probably make him a 100 wRC+ hitter by just toning down the Swing%.

 

Having Don Mattingly around is probably bad... I know he's not a hitting coach, but he's there and hard to believe he doesn't talk hitting with the guys... in 2023 no one can have success with his approach. Even Bo Bichette would be well served by taking a few more pitches.

 

Should have hired Jason Giambi instead for bench coach 'hey boys take pitches' advice giver.

[jaysblue]

Varsho's having a lower than normal batted ball luck and the power is gone, I expect him to rebound soon, I hope.

 

We all hope for the Jays sake. But geez hasn't looked good at all thus far.

[connorp]

 

I never saw the gdt until well after the game. Also, the mlb draft thread was disappearing for me. Weird

[jaysblue]

If you can get Varsho to have a career offensively like Max Muncy, that should be the goal! Maybe minus the high .OBP a bit but power wise and everything else, that would be sweet!

[BigCecil]

Absolutely 0 chance that happens. Thats the type of clubhouse crushing trade that can tank a season.

 

The ol' "clubhouse crushing" narrative is way way too over used. Are you kidding me?

 

Depends on what comes back in the trade to help the club win now. Not proposing he is sold off for parts. I don't mean a useful piece coming back that isn't a useful piece now. Has to add net value. KK is gone next year more anyway.

[BigCecil]

Yeah wouldn't make any sense trading KK unless the Jays were selling. He's still a valuable piece and asset on a winning team.

 

Varsho just needs to start hitting plain and simple. He doesn't have to be elite offensively. Just post a 100 wRC+ at least. He needs to improve on his .214/.277/.368 line, which is awful. If Varsho can just be a similar hitter like Max Muncy, I would take that in a heartbeat!

 

I don't mean trading KK and whatever for someone that wont help them win this year....point being we don't have KK next year. He has value now and we can't have both Varsho and KK in CF.....if Varsho and/or others actually started hitting this could change. I think its a realistic moving target before deadline.

[Stangstag]

I don't mean trading KK and whatever for someone that wont help them win this year....point being we don't have KK next year. He has value now and we can't have both Varsho and KK in CF.....if Varsho and/or others actually started hitting this could change. I think its a realistic moving target before deadline.

 

Not realistic. You don’t move good players when you’re trying to win, period.

[BigCecil]

I really think it had to do with the coaches and organizational approach. That is the only thing I can think of to explain the dramatic difference. I think he got to the Jays, they said this is what we would like you to try to do, and now he is in some messed up purgatory of trying to go back to what worked but using the team approach and he has lost the edge as they said in Top Gun.

 

I truly think he needs a full boot reset back to basics and what worked in AZ and the minors.

 

Varsho is a 27 year old career 95 wRC+ bat who has never hit LHP in 1400 PAs. Can he get back to that? Well he is already there vs LHP. He has never been a really good hitter. Can he have upside we don't see yet? Sure. How likely is that? Guys like Edwin and Jose were unicorns taking off like they did later careers.

 

It doesn't change the fact its a luxury we can't currently afford having him in LF the way he is hitting right now.

 

To start the year Schneids had him in the order as our clean up hitter. I just don't get the rose colored glasses of optimism.

[BigCecil]

Not realistic. You don’t move good players when you’re trying to win, period.

 

No. Good players are traded every year at the deadline. Depends on the needs of each team and the deal. He is a good player having a resurgent season so it would have to compelling.

[max silver]

I don't mean trading KK and whatever for someone that wont help them win this year....point being we don't have KK next year. He has value now and we can't have both Varsho and KK in CF.....if Varsho and/or others actually started hitting this could change. I think its a realistic moving target before deadline.

 

It seems like it would be awfully hard to ship Kiermaier out and receive a return that makes the team better in the short term. I agree that it's suboptimal having both Kiermaier and Varsho as two of the three primary outfield options, but I think that's an issue that's best addressed in the offseason by simply not re-signing Kiermaier.

[BigCecil]

It seems like it would be awfully hard to ship Kiermaier out and receive a return that makes the team better in the short term. I agree that it's suboptimal having both Kiermaier and Varsho as two of the three primary outfield options, but I think that's an issue that's best addressed in the offseason by simply not re-signing Kiermaier.

 

Thats fair. I agree it would be hard to get a net gain for this season but I'm sure they will be taking calls. I would not move him for a sack of s*** thats for sure.

[max silver]

Varsho is a 27 year old career 95 wRC+ bat who has never hit LHP in 1400 PAs. Can he get back to that? Well he is already there vs LHP. He has never been a really good hitter. Can he have upside we don't see yet? Sure. How likely is that? Guys like Edwin and Jose were unicorns taking off like they did later careers.

 

It doesn't change the fact its a luxury we can't currently afford having him in LF the way he is hitting right now.

 

To start the year Schneids had him in the order as our clean up hitter. I just don't get the rose colored glasses of optimism.

 

Varsho has historically been a much stronger second half performer with a 118 WRC+ vs the first half 78 WRC+. The team absolutely needs to obtain another right handed bat so that it's possible to shelter both Kiermaier and Varsho against tough left handed starters when necessary, but it seems unlikely we've seen the best of Varsho offensively up to this point of the season as he's had success in the past.

[Jays333]

I have to agree that Varshos defense in LF is not making up for his pool noodle bat. For his A+ defense to play he needs to be an everyday CFer. Making KK fully dispensable. Were commited to Varsho full time not KK. Get something for him now while his value is up.

[Stangstag]

No. Good players are traded every year at the deadline. Depends on the needs of each team and the deal. He is a good player having a resurgent season so it would have to compelling.

 

It really doesn’t happen with teams not named the Rays

[BigCecil]

Varsho has historically been a much stronger second half performer with a 118 WRC+ vs the first half 78 WRC+. The team absolutely needs to obtain another right handed bat so that it's possible to shelter both Kiermaier and Varsho against tough left handed starters when necessary, but it seems unlikely we've seen the best of Varsho offensively up to this point of the season as he's had success in the past.

 

Two comments: Agree and lets hope so!

[Jimcanuck]

Jays should have no hesitation in moving KK for the right return

 

Or any other player, for that matter

[Jonn]

Trading Kiermaier unless your selling is a no. But they absolutely should platoon Varsho if they get a suitable right-handed bat. He should ideally never get an at-bat against a left-handed pitcher.

 

He’s been one of the worst hitters in Baseball against lefties with atleast 50 at-bats the last 2 years. And that is with the bunt hits.

[Jimcanuck]

Trading Kiermaier unless your selling is a no. But they absolutely should platoon Varsho if they get a suitable right-handed bat. He should ideally never get an at-bat against a left-handed pitcher.

 

He’s been one of the worst hitters in Baseball against lefties with atleast 50 at-bats the last 2 years. And that is with the bunt hits.

 

No one should be untouchable. Dumb to operate any other way.

[Grant77]

Jays should have no hesitation in moving KK for the right return

 

Or any other player, for that matter

 

Why would we consider trading a vet when we're in a playoff spot?

[Daniel Labude]

This Vladimir Guerrero Jr. guy is kind of special.........

 

MVP runner up

Lead baseball in HR, in a season

Gold Glove

Most HRs in a HR derby

Most HRs in a HR derby final

Home Run Derby Runner up

Home Run Derby Champion

 

.........and you are telling me he is only 24 years old. Insane crazy

[John_Havok]

This Vladimir Guerrero Jr. guy is kind of special.........

 

MVP runner up

Lead baseball in HR, in a season

Gold Glove

Most HRs in a HR derby

Most HRs in a HR derby final

Home Run Derby Runner up

Home Run Derby Champion

 

.........and you are telling me he is only 24 years old. Insane crazy

 

Sure. All those accolades and on pace for a 1 WAR season. Doesn’t really add up does it…

[Daniel Labude]

Sure. All those accolades and on pace for a 1 WAR season. Doesn’t really add up does it…

 

Makes perfect sense when you realize how flawed WAR can be

[Olerud363]

Makes perfect sense when you realize how flawed WAR can be

 

Not sure you understand how WAR works. Wins over replacement.

 

When Vlad hit .310 .400 .600 he was much better than replacement so he added about 6 wins to the team as compared to a random guy from triple a.

 

Random first basemen from triple a might hit .250 .310 .420 or something. Like Ryan Noda, but Ryan Noda is doing a bit better than that.

 

If Vlad hits .275 .340 .440 he is much closer to a random guy from triple a thus doesn't accumulate much WAR.

 

.275 .340 .440 is close to .250 .310 .420... .310 .400 .600 is way better than .250 .310 .420.

 

WAR makes perfect sense with some wiggle room for im-perfect defensive metrics.

[Olerud363]

Sure. All those accolades and on pace for a 1 WAR season. DoesnÂ’t really add up does itÂ…

 

And that's why 99% of fans are so mystified and disapointed that a guy with Vlad's historic minor league numbers, historic 2021 numbers, and raw power show at the homerun contest can somehow put up a .270 .340 .440 line that is only a bit better than replacement. Massively disappointing line considering his raw gifts. Hopefully better numbers in the second half.

[Spanky99]

Not sure you understand how WAR works. Wins over replacement.

 

When Vlad hit .310 .400 .600 he was much better than replacement so he added about 6 wins to the team as compared to a random guy from triple a.

 

Random first basemen from triple a might hit .250 .310 .420 or something. Like Ryan Noda, but Ryan Noda is doing a bit better than that.

 

If Vlad hits .275 .340 .440 he is much closer to a random guy from triple a thus doesn't accumulate much WAR.

 

.275 .340 .440 is close to .250 .310 .420... .310 .400 .600 is way better than .250 .310 .420.

 

WAR makes perfect sense with some wiggle room for im-perfect defensive metrics.

 

He has his own theorem, the LtbfWAR