General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Laika]

There are a half dozen teams who really want a better C and there is basically one team selling that thing.

 

Toronto will trade a catcher before the season, I think. It might take a couple months for someone to capitulate though.

[wilko]

Just to play devil’s advocate here, I think a lot of us maybe underestimate the value of game-calling and starters having rapport with the staff. Maybe Kirk can’t catch more than like twice a week. Maybe the team isn’t comfortable with having a rookie catcher (Moreno) getting the majority of starts in a contending year.

 

On paper, Kirk/Moreno is an excellent duo but maybe there’s an aspect that can’t quantified that we are overlooking. Siddall has more catching experience than all of us combined and he’s with the team daily.

 

I was C/3B for my slowball team for 6 years. Not that stupid slowball where they throw it 20 feet in the air either. I'm talking about you wind up that arm and chuck it in. I think I have some experience...

[Jonn]

"from a depth perspective"

 

I don't think he meant they have a top 5 pen. Just one of the deeper bullpens. It's true, honestly.

 

Sure we lead the world in middle relievers.

[Jonn]

lol, thanks coach

 

My pleasure. Lets hope the Front Office doesn’t decide to trade a Catcher for an Outfielder just because we “need” one.

 

Wait until teams are willing to play ball. They can f*** off until then. Going into Spring with all 3 would be a power move.

[Jimcanuck]

My pleasure. Lets hope the Front Office doesn’t decide to trade a Catcher for an Outfielder just because we “need” one.

 

Wait until teams are willing to play ball. They can f*** off until then. Going into Spring with all 3 would be a power move.

 

We really need you in the Jays FO, to give them your sage advice. Jonn for GM!

[Terminator]

Keeping all 3 Catchers should only be done if we aren't getting 80-90 cents on the dollar for Jansen.

 

1. He's only got 2 years left, so the longer we wait to trade him, the closer we are to losing him in FA, thus losing the catching depth which is spurring the trade to begin with.

 

2. Trading him for a less valuable player isn't that risky. How badly can we get burnt by losing out on 2 years of his production when we've got both Moreno and Kirk (both of whom project better) in the fold? Yeah we could be EXTRA protected in case of injury but this ignores the fact that:

 

3. We are thin in the OF and in the rotation. Both of those are more important than the #3 Catcher. Trading a 2.5 WAR Jansen for a 2 WAR Outfielder or a #5 SP is going to be a net improvement for the team. And it will take advantage of #1 (while we still have that surplus to actually take advantage of) while not likely to burn us (#2).

[Laika]

Sure we lead the world in middle relievers.

 

It's pretty comfy tbh

[Stangstag]

Keeping all 3 Catchers should only be done if we aren't getting 80-90 cents on the dollar for Jansen.

 

1. He's only got 2 years left, so the longer we wait to trade him, the closer we are to losing him in FA, thus losing the catching depth which is spurring the trade to begin with.

 

2. Trading him for a less valuable player isn't that risky. How badly can we get burnt by losing out on 2 years of his production when we've got both Moreno and Kirk (both of whom project better) in the fold? Yeah we could be EXTRA protected in case of injury but this ignores the fact that:

 

3. We are thin in the OF and in the rotation. Both of those are more important than the #3 Catcher. Trading a 2.5 WAR Jansen for a 2 WAR Outfielder or a #5 SP is going to be a net improvement for the team. And it will take advantage of #1 (while we still have that surplus to actually take advantage of) while not likely to burn us (#2).

 

Next year is gonna be a tough offseason. Need to add/replace 2 everyday outfielders and an everyday 3B. Would be nice if we could fill one of those outfield spots before the season begins.

[Terminator]

Just to play devil’s advocate here, I think a lot of us maybe underestimate the value of game-calling and starters having rapport with the staff. Maybe Kirk can’t catch more than like twice a week. Maybe the team isn’t comfortable with having a rookie catcher (Moreno) getting the majority of starts in a contending year.

 

On paper, Kirk/Moreno is an excellent duo but maybe there’s an aspect that can’t quantified that we are overlooking. Siddall has more catching experience than all of us combined and he’s with the team daily.

 

Siddall caught 73 games in the big leagues and was ass. If anything I think that experience is clouding his judgment and he's overestimating those things and assigning more importance to the position than he should.

 

Because he was so terrible he really can't point to anything he did and say he was good, but he can speak to this vague notion that "game calling" is some magical talent and he did have that he was just bad at the other stuff! And no one can disprove it because it isn't real.

[Laika]

Next year is gonna be a tough offseason. Need to add/replace 2 everyday outfielders and an everyday 3B. Would be nice if we could fill one of those outfield spots before the season begins.

 

I dunno, I am pretty bullish on Addison Barger. I think he takes one of those spots.

[G-Snarls]

There are a half dozen teams who really want a better C and there is basically one team selling that thing.

 

Toronto will trade a catcher before the season, I think. It might take a couple months for someone to capitulate though.

 

Interestingly, the team that traded for a highly touted catcher (Murphy/Braves) didn't really need one that badly

 

But yes there several teams who could really benefit from an upgrade at the position.

Edited December 19, 2022 by G-Snarls

[Deadpool]

3. We are thin in the OF and in the rotation. Both of those are more important than the #3 Catcher. Trading a 2.5 WAR Jansen for a 2 WAR Outfielder or a #5 SP is going to be a net improvement for the team. And it will take advantage of #1 (while we still have that surplus to actually take advantage of) while not likely to burn us (#2).

 

Gausman

Manoah

Bassitt

Berrios

Kikuchi

White

Zulueta

Tiedimann

Ryu

 

That's not what I would call "thin" How many teams, even playoff teams, have the luxury of a guy like Berrios as their #4? There are questions about #5, sure, but there are 5 options there who all have the potential to be mid rotation or better, so more than likely one of the four healthy guys wins the job in spring training and we're good. We also have Francis who I still haven't given up on, and while I think most people have given up on Pearson as a starting option (myself, finally, included) he's still technically on that list.

[Stangstag]

I dunno, I am pretty bullish on Addison Barger. I think he takes one of those spots.

 

Im hoping too

[Stangstag]

Gausman

Manoah

Bassitt

Berrios

Kikuchi

White

Zulueta

Tiedimann

Ryu

 

That's not what I would call "thin" How many teams, even playoff teams, have the luxury of a guy like Berrios as their #4? There are questions about #5, sure, but there are 5 options there who all have the potential to be mid rotation or better, so more than likely one of the four healthy guys wins the job in spring training and we're good. We also have Francis who I still haven't given up on, and while I think most people have given up on Pearson as a starting option (myself, finally, included) he's still technically on that list.

 

Yeah of all areas on the team, the rotation is the one where 4 out of 5 spots are locked in with above-average guys for several years.

 

The rotation is pretty set

[Terminator]

Gausman

Manoah

Bassitt

Berrios

Kikuchi

White

Zulueta

Tiedimann

Ryu

 

That's not what I would call "thin" How many teams, even playoff teams, have the luxury of a guy like Berrios as their #4? There are questions about #5, sure, but there are 5 options there who all have the potential to be mid rotation or better, so more than likely one of the four healthy guys wins the job in spring training and we're good. We also have Francis who I still haven't given up on, and while I think most people have given up on Pearson as a starting option (myself, finally, included) he's still technically on that list.

 

The average team can expect to have to use 32 starts from pitchers not already in their starting 5. It's basically it's own rotation slot.

 

Maybe we are better than average but last year we went in to the season with a very similar rotation in Gausman-Manoah-Berrios-Ryu-Kikuchi and we needed 42 additional starts outside our Opening Day rotation. Luckily Stripling soaked up 24 of those but he's no longer here.

 

The group you listed is a collection of iffy talent (Kikuchi, White, Francis), guys who haven't gotten past AA that are probably another year away (Zululeta perhaps but moreso Tiedemann) and guys that I don't think we can rely on at all (Ryu, Pearson).

 

That's not a group of guys that I'd want to bet on to cover the #5 spot (~30 starts) in addition to whatever is needed to cover in case of injury.

[Terminator]

Yeah of all areas on the team, the rotation is the one where 4 out of 5 spots are locked in with above-average guys for several years.

 

The rotation is pretty set

 

Did you at any point last season watch a Kikuchi start? I wouldn't blame you if you blocked it out of your memory due to the PTSD it likely caused but handing him the ball every 5 days right now is the opposite of a "set" rotation spot lol.

[Jimcanuck]

The average team can expect to have to use 32 starts from pitchers not already in their starting 5. It's basically it's own rotation slot.

 

Maybe we are better than average but last year we went in to the season with a very similar rotation in Gausman-Manoah-Berrios-Ryu-Kikuchi and we needed 42 additional starts outside our Opening Day rotation. Luckily Stripling soaked up 24 of those but he's no longer here.

 

The group you listed is a collection of iffy talent (Kikuchi, White, Francis), guys who haven't gotten past AA that are probably another year away (Zululeta perhaps but moreso Tiedemann) and guys that I don't think we can rely on at all (Ryu, Pearson).

 

That's not a group of guys that I'd want to bet on to cover the #5 spot (~30 starts) in addition to whatever is needed to cover in case of injury.

 

Agreed. As I mentioned the other day, Wacha for No. 5, Kikuchi in the bullpen as a swingman, and White in AAA gives the team some breathing room for injuries and suckage etc.

 

Kikuchi and White sharing #5 starter duties is basically taking an L every 5 games.

[Stangstag]

Did you at any point last season watch a Kikuchi start? I wouldn't blame you if you blocked it out of your memory due to the PTSD it likely caused but handing him the ball every 5 days right now is the opposite of a "set" rotation spot lol.

 

I definitely watched. He was jekyll/hyde much like Berrios was, except Kikuchi’s bad starts were more like… walk 3 batters each inning.

He actually had a handful of great starts, including a couple against the Yankees.

 

Anyways my statement still stands that 4 of 5 rotation spots are locked in for the foreseeable future. I don’t expect Berrios to be as bad as he was in 2022

[Stangstag]

Agreed. As I mentioned the other day, Wacha for No. 5, Kikuchi in the bullpen as a swingman, and White in AAA gives the team some breathing room for injuries and suckage etc.

 

Kikuchi and White sharing #5 starter duties is basically taking an L every 5 games.

 

I think Mitch White is going to surprise a lot of people this year. Even his projections are not bad. He’s basically Stripling 2 years ago

[Terminator]

Agreed. As I mentioned the other day, Wacha for No. 5, Kikuchi in the bullpen as a swingman, and White in AAA gives the team some breathing room for injuries and suckage etc.

 

Kikuchi and White sharing #5 starter duties is basically taking an L every 5 games.

 

White is out of options but we could stuff both Kikuchi and him in the bullpen to start. It will cause a logjam but the depth will be important and we can option Pop and trade someone like Richards or Merryweather.

[Eat My Shatkins]

The average team can expect to have to use 32 starts from pitchers not already in their starting 5. It's basically it's own rotation slot.

 

Maybe we are better than average but last year we went in to the season with a very similar rotation in Gausman-Manoah-Berrios-Ryu-Kikuchi and we needed 42 additional starts outside our Opening Day rotation. Luckily Stripling soaked up 24 of those but he's no longer here.

 

The group you listed is a collection of iffy talent (Kikuchi, White, Francis), guys who haven't gotten past AA that are probably another year away (Zululeta perhaps but moreso Tiedemann) and guys that I don't think we can rely on at all (Ryu, Pearson).

 

That's not a group of guys that I'd want to bet on to cover the #5 spot (~30 starts) in addition to whatever is needed to cover in case of injury.

 

This is probably why the Jays were reportedly talking to Cueto. I would love to see Cueto or Kluber brought in on a year deal just to fill out the 5th spot and as a result improve the depth by knocking everyone else down a notch.

[Terminator]

I definitely watched. He was jekyll/hyde much like Berrios was, except Kikuchi’s bad starts were more like… walk 3 batters each inning.

He actually had a handful of great starts, including a couple against the Yankees.

 

Anyways my statement still stands that 4 of 5 rotation spots are locked in for the foreseeable future. I don’t expect Berrios to be as bad as he was in 2022

 

Yeah I think Deadpool made a good point that I don't disagree with. 1-4 is solid and seemingly durable enough that it does cover for a lack of depth at 5-8. It's kind of like having a stacked lineup 1-9 without a great bench or AAA options. If 1 or 2 guys go down you'll still have a formidable offense but injuries will hurt.

[L54]

All aboard the Wade Miley train

[Laika]

The durability track records of the Jays rotation are pretty amazing, save for Bassitt who had his face caved in and almost died once and also had TJS in 2016

[jaysblue]

"from a depth perspective"

 

I don't think he meant they have a top 5 pen. Just one of the deeper bullpens. It's true, honestly.

 

Agreed, from a depth perspective, the Jays have a very deep bullpen with solid arms. Though they do need another elite high K% arm who can act as a bridge to Romano to really solidify the bullpen. They've done a great job building depth with guys like Garcia, Bass, Cimber, Pop, Mayza, though they aren't guys I want pitching in a 1-run game in the 8th inning.

 

Hopefully they could add another arm like Rogers via free agency and hope maybe Pearson/Merryweather can become a special arm down in the pen.

[jaysblue]

This is probably why the Jays were reportedly talking to Cueto. I would love to see Cueto or Kluber brought in on a year deal just to fill out the 5th spot and as a result improve the depth by knocking everyone else down a notch.

 

I don't think it would hurt. You can never have enough pitching. Bringing a vet like Cueto or Kluber as a No. 5 is only going to cost money - likely around $10M. Having Kikuchi and White as your No. 6 and 7 heading into the season is a lot better IMO.

 

You'll feel the ripple effects if an injury happens to a top arm like Gausman or Manoah or Bassitt or if Berrios misses time etc. Always good to have some insurance rather than scrambling over 162 game season.

 

When the Postseason comes around, you really don't care about Cueto or Kluber unless you need them because of an injury. Though the focus should be building the best roster over 162 game season.

[Deadpool]

I don't think it would hurt. You can never have enough pitching. Bringing a vet like Cueto or Kluber as a No. 5 is only going to cost money - likely around $10M. Having Kikuchi and White as your No. 6 and 7 heading into the season is a lot better IMO.

 

You'll feel the ripple effects if an injury happens to a top arm like Gausman or Manoah or Bassitt or if Berrios misses time etc. Always good to have some insurance rather than scrambling over 162 game season.

 

When the Postseason comes around, you really don't care about Cueto or Kluber unless you need them because of an injury. Though the focus should be building the best roster over 162 game season.

 

I don't think they spend another $10M this off season. I think they could have gone over the cap for someone like Verlander, or another impact player, but barring that, it makes sense to stay under the cap.

 

Going JUST over the cap is a bad move for the future, IMO. 'cause you're setting your "have to reset the cap" year a year earlier and your only benefit is a marginal upgrade...

[John_Havok]

I don't think they spend another $10M this off season. I think they could have gone over the cap for someone like Verlander, or another impact player, but barring that, it makes sense to stay under the cap.

 

Going JUST over the cap is a bad move for the future, IMO. 'cause you're setting your "have to reset the cap" year a year earlier and your only benefit is a marginal upgrade...

 

Well, they might be over already depending on how arbitration goes. Projections have them right around 229, threshold being 233.

[Jonn]

Cueto quietly put up 3.5 WAR last season. If you’re projecting that in the 5th slot that’s a pretty special rotation. They seem pretty firm on Kikuchi being the 5th Starter though. Hopefully he pitches well but they need to be prepared to pivot quickly if it doesn’t work.

[Ehjays]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/atkins-blue-jays-shifting-focus-to-offense.html

 

 

Atkins: Blue Jays Shifting Focus To Offense

By Darragh McDonald | December 19, 2022 at 5:16pm CDT

 

The Blue Jays’ offseason has primarily been focused on run prevention to this point, as the club has added Chris Bassitt to their rotation, Erik Swanson to their bullpen and defensive specialist Kevin Kiermaier to their outfield. General manager Ross Atkins spoke with the media today as part of Bassitt’s introduction to the press and said that their focus will now “shift to offensive improvement,” per Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet.

 

The Blue Jays were one of the strongest offensive teams in the league in 2022, as their collective .264/.329/.431 batting line was 18% above league average. The team-wide 118 wRC+ was the second-best mark in the majors, trailing only the 119 of the Dodgers. Most of the club’s lineup projects to be back for 2023, with the most notable departure being Teoscar Hernández, who went to the Mariners in the Swanson trade.

 

The club has since added Kiermaier to their outfield mix, who is a much better defender than Hernandez but inferior on offense. Kiermaier hit .228/.281/.369 in 2022 for a 90 wRC+ and has a career batting line of .248/.308/.407, 97 wRC+. Hernandez hit .267/.316/.491 in 2022, 129 wRC+, and has a career slash line of .262/.319/.499 for a 120 wRC+. Given that gap, it’s unsurprising that the club would look to find some more offense before the offseason is done.

 

The most likely method for the Jays to find that extra pop in the lineup is through a left-handed hitting outfielder. The club has already been connected to players like Brandon Nimmo, Cody Bellinger, Michael Brantley and Masataka Yoshida, though all four of those players have now agreed to terms elsewhere. Michael Conforto in still unsigned, with the Jays having been connected to him in the past. He would be a risky play since he missed all of 2022 due to shoulder surgery and also had a disappointing season in 2021. But in the four-year stretch from 2017 to 2020, he hit .265/.369/.495 for a wRC+ of 133. If he’s capable of getting back to that range, that would go a long way to making up for the departure of Hernandez.

 

Signing Conforto or some other free agent like Jurickson Profar, Matt Carpenter or David Peralta would add to the club’s payroll and luxury tax ledger, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue at the moment. “We’re not limited financially,” Atkins tells Nicholson-Smith. Roster Resource puts the club’s payroll at $207MM at the moment, which is already a franchise high. They are also into luxury tax territory for the first time, with their CBT number just a hair over the $233MM threshold. Based on Atkins’ comments, it seems there’s still more room to continue adding.

 

Another path to the club upgrading would be trade, with the club’s three catchers being frequently mentioned in trade rumors for quite some time. The club has yet to pull the trigger, with Danny Jansen, Alejandro Kirk and Gabriel Moreno all still on the roster. Recent reporting suggested that the club would be comfortable holding onto all three and Atkins backed that up today. He said that the catching market is “exceptionally strong,” per Nicholson-Smith, but that the Jays are “100% comfortable” keeping all three and “remaining in that position of strength.”

 

Though the focus is on offense, it seems a pitching upgrade is still on the table. “We’ll continue to think about ways to improve,” Atkins told the press, per Nicholson-Smith. That lines up with recent reporting that suggested they’ve shown interest in Johnny Cueto, though it seems the lineup will be top of the agenda for now.