[Rosenthal] - Jays still going after Ramirez to play 2B?

[Sammy225]

Would rather give up Groshans and Jansen

 

So would Atkinson but Cleveland would tell you too f*** off

[Slade]

Mitchell noted that they have specifically been video taping Kirks warm ups. I would be ok with Any combination of Kirk, Jansen, McGuire, Groshans, maybe even Biggio.

 

I have a feeling we are overestimating how much it will cost to get him Kirk + Groshans + lower tier guy might be enough.

[glory]

If they can get Ramirez without giving up Moreno and Martinez, then go for it.

[Jonn]

If they can get Ramirez without giving up Moreno and Martinez, then go for it.

 

Seems unlikely. Feel one of them would have to be included. Would feel more comfortable parting with one if Ramirez came with an extension.

[Dr. Dinger]

I would give up Moreno for Ramirez in a heartbeat. Ramirez is an MVP caliber player in his prime with two years remaining and a culturally probable chance of re-signing here (as opposed to American players). There isn't a catcher in baseball likely to out-WAR the next two seasons of Ramirez even over a 6 year projection. Even if Moreno is the next Yadier Molina I would make that trade, considering the Jays position on the win curve. I think some people here are vastly overestimating how soon Moreno can be a contributor; the window is now.

 

That said, I think something like Groshans + Pearson + Biggio is a reasonable trade for both teams. The Guardians probably want Orelvis + Pearson or Moreno + a lesser piece, but I think ultimately they will take less.

[Spanky99]

Wasn't there a tweet on here about the Guardians asking for Manoah, Moreno + ... f*** that, not happening.

[bronson44]

I want to keep all of those guys and see how it goes

 

If 2B is a problem mid seeson then see what the deals look like

 

BTW is Biggio playing soon?

 

Toronto Blue Jays second baseman Cavan Biggio (elbow) suffered a left elbow sprain in the offseason, which is why he hasn't appeared in a spring training game yet, according to manager Charlie Montoyo. Biggio is expected to make his spring debut later this week, possibly as soon as Tuesday. As long as he doesn't have any setbacks when he gets into games, he should be ready for the start of the regular season.

 

Source: Sportsnet.ca - Arden Zwelling

[Stangstag]

I would give up Moreno for Ramirez in a heartbeat. Ramirez is an MVP caliber player in his prime with two years remaining and a culturally probable chance of re-signing here (as opposed to American players). There isn't a catcher in baseball likely to out-WAR the next two seasons of Ramirez even over a 6 year projection. Even if Moreno is the next Yadier Molina I would make that trade, considering the Jays position on the win curve. I think some people here are vastly overestimating how soon Moreno can be a contributor; the window is now.

 

That said, I think something like Groshans + Pearson + Biggio is a reasonable trade for both teams. The Guardians probably want Orelvis + Pearson or Moreno + a lesser piece, but I think ultimately they will take less.

 

You only make it a “window” by constantly trading away guys like Moreno.

[THANOS]

You only make it a “window” by constantly trading away guys like Moreno.

 

This.

[Grant77]

You only make it a “window” by constantly trading away guys like Moreno.

 

Absolutely right. There's no window right now if we are careful with our prospects and maintain a high payroll.

[z3r0s]

getting a 6 WAR player for 2 years at bargain price is getting underrated by a lot of ppl on here.

 

I totally get the sentiment of 'lets make this a dynasty rather than a window', but the upgrade is so huge its hard to understate.

[gruber92]

You only make it a “window” by constantly trading away guys like Moreno.

 

I agree. Re-visit Ramirez at the deadline, he'll be cheaper.

[L54]

Keep the prospects and see what is needed in July.

 

I’d rather be the Astros than the Cubs

[Jays24]

Mitchell noted that they have specifically been video taping Kirks warm ups. I would be ok with Any combination of Kirk, Jansen, McGuire, Groshans, maybe even Biggio.

 

I have a feeling we are overestimating how much it will cost to get him Kirk + Groshans + lower tier guy might be enough.

 

That's exactly where I'm at with our team. I don't want us to deplete our farm to have a 2 year run and then struggle to restock the big league team with adequate pieces. If we can agree to an extension with JRam then I'd toss Biggio into that trade package.

[Dick_Pole]

I am of the STRONG opinion that the Jays should give the Espinal and Biggio platoon a chance at 2B at least for the first 3-4 months to see what they can do and re-visit trade possibilities in July.

 

There are 6 playoff spots and 7, maybe 8 teams in the AL that could reasonably be expected to surpass 83 wins. The Jays can afford the worst case scenario of a 3 WAR difference between a Ramirez acquisition now versus one in late July.

[John_Havok]

getting a 6 WAR player for 2 years at bargain price is getting underrated by a lot of ppl on here.

 

I totally get the sentiment of 'lets make this a dynasty rather than a window', but the upgrade is so huge its hard to understate.

 

True. And if the price tag centres around Kirk, and doesn’t include Moreno, it doesn’t really damage the long term outlook at C. Obviously there would be more to the trade than just Kirk, but even if it’s Kirk + Orelvis + lottery ticket…..Groshans or any of the other IF prospects could very well be ready to take over from Chapman in 2 years, or even Moreno if they feel he’s better suited to 3b than catcher.

 

Would I want to give up both Kirk and Orelvis? Not typically, but if you can get JRam for 2 years at his money to play 2b, which still leaves flexibility to sign other guys (IE pen help) in the upcoming offseason…I’d be hard pressed not to pull that trigger.

[TwistedLogic]

Wasn't there a tweet on here about the Guardians asking for Manoah, Moreno + ... f*** that, not happening.

The entire basis of that rumor was a f***ing Buck Martinez interview on MLB Network, lmfao. He said Cleveland wants Manoah, Moreno and Martinez.

 

I'm gonna guess Buck had two too many day drinks before his TV spot. I put zero stock in anything he thinks he knows.

[Stangstag]

I am of the STRONG opinion that the Jays should give the Espinal and Biggio platoon a chance at 2B at least for the first 3-4 months to see what they can do and re-visit trade possibilities in July.

 

There are 6 playoff spots and 7, maybe 8 teams in the AL that could reasonably be expected to surpass 83 wins. The Jays can afford the worst case scenario of a 3 WAR difference between a Ramirez acquisition now versus one in late July.

 

Agreed. Ramirez is obviously a star player, but im not sure we should empty the farm when we have a perfectly serviceable option at 2nd already. You don’t need an all-star at EVERY position.

 

Bullpen is a much bigger hole and could get way worse if someone like Romano gets injured.

[Key22]

All you have to offer is what is better than anyone else - if Cleveland is really wanting to trade him.

 

I had a quick look at Jays prospects and according to this site https://www.prospects1500.com/al-east/blue-jays/toronto-blue-jays-top-50-prospects-2022/

 

The Jays only have one tier 1 prospect in Moreno

Three Tier 2 prospects: Groshans, Martinez, Pearson.

(4 premium prospects in total)

 

The Red Sox have three tier 1 prospects (Yorke, Mayer, Casas

Five Tier 2 prospects: Duran, Jordan, Bello, Downs, Groome

(8 premium prospects to trade)

 

Tampa has three tier 1 prospects and eight 8 tier 2

(11 premium prospects in total)

 

Yankees

One tier 1 prospect

Four tier 2 prospects

(5 premium prospects in total)

 

All of these teams can afford the Ramirez salary and all four are in the playoff hunt.

 

And that's just our division.

 

Now granted - Cleveland may value one of our tier 2 guys higher than another team's tier 1 prospect but it's still an indicator as to what could be a competing offer. The Yankees do a great job of hyping mediocrities - (Ahem Brandon Drury).

[Deadpool]

Agreed. Ramirez is obviously a star player, but im not sure we should empty the farm when we have a perfectly serviceable option at 2nd already. You don’t need an all-star at EVERY position.

 

Bullpen is a much bigger hole and could get way worse if someone like Romano gets injured.

 

The Jays are widely considered the best team in the AL, and certainly the best offence in the AL. Yeah, Ramirez is a big upgrade, and would be a great addition to the team, but like... we don't need to beat our opponents by 15 runs a game. Particularly not if it sacrifices a significant chunk of the future.

[Key22]

The Jays are widely considered the best team in the AL, and certainly the best offence in the AL. Yeah, Ramirez is a big upgrade, and would be a great addition to the team, but like... we don't need to beat our opponents by 15 runs a game. Particularly not if it sacrifices a significant chunk of the future.

 

And maybe have the prospect capital in July if one of our big three arms go down or Kikuchi or Ryu flounder. Having those prospects to get - say - a Cal Quantrill or some other pitcher on a bad team could come in handy. I get the appeal of a big lefty bat - it would be nice to have.

 

If Cleveland has a terrible contact maybe you can take that contract back to lower the prospect capital - but I don't know that they do.

[Deadpool]

And maybe have the prospect capital in July if one of our big three arms go down or Kikuchi or Ryu flounder. Having those prospects to get - say - a Cal Quantrill or some other pitcher on a bad team could come in handy. I get the appeal of a big lefty bat - it would be nice to have.

 

If Cleveland has a terrible contact maybe you can take that contract back to lower the prospect capital - but I don't know that they do.

 

Exactly. I'm not saying "horde prospects forever" (though I do have a bit of a prospect issue and should probably talk to a therapist about that), I'm saying "this is not currently a needed upgrade". Those prospects can be better used later, either on the Jays, or in a different trade that isn't just overkill.

[Jimcanuck]

Exactly. I'm not saying "horde prospects forever" (though I do have a bit of a prospect issue and should probably talk to a therapist about that), I'm saying "this is not currently a needed upgrade". Those prospects can be better used later, either on the Jays, or in a different trade that isn't just overkill.

 

Or, between now and July, one or more of these prospects destroy the minors and rocket up the prospect list. In other words, there are two aspects, (1) the need for an upgrade, (2) the timing of the transaction. You want to optimize both.

[JFD]

The Jays are widely considered the best team in the AL, and certainly the best offence in the AL. Yeah, Ramirez is a big upgrade, and would be a great addition to the team, but like... we don't need to beat our opponents by 15 runs a game. Particularly not if it sacrifices a significant chunk of the future.

 

Don't forget that the Jays were near the bottom in offensive stats vs RHP relievers in later innings. Maybe that was due to inexperience or maybe just too many righty hitters in the lineup.

[Grant77]

Don't forget that the Jays were near the bottom in offensive stats vs RHP relievers in later innings. Maybe that was due to inexperience or maybe just too many righty hitters in the lineup.

 

There comes a point where splits become too small of a sample size to be useful.We led the league in OPS vs RHP, so I don't think the L/R balance is the primary factor here.

[The Cats Ass]

Don't forget that the Jays were near the bottom in offensive stats vs RHP relievers in later innings. Maybe that was due to inexperience or maybe just too many righty hitters in the lineup.

 

I'm not sure where you got this stat. But I think you're wrong.

 

Jays have the 10th highest OPS in 8-9 innings against RHP. Overall against RHP they had the highest OPS league wide.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr=2&splitArrPitch=&position=B&autoPt=false&splitTeams=false&statType=team&statgroup=2&startDate=2021-03-01&endDate=2021-11-01&players=&filter=&groupBy=season&wxTemperature=&wxPressure=&wxAirDensity=&wxElevation=&wxWindSpeed=&sort=9,1

[Signal]

I agree with many here, that the Jays would do well to keep their young talent and run with a platoon at second. See how it goes and then return to the question at hand as the trade deadline looms.

 

There is a chance that at that time, another dire need for the team moving forward will have developed. You will still have some young talent and assets to use in a trade and most probably the asking price will be much lower.

[Deadpool]

Don't forget that the Jays were near the bottom in offensive stats vs RHP relievers in later innings. Maybe that was due to inexperience or maybe just too many righty hitters in the lineup.

 

Even if this were true (and the posts below suggest it isn't) Ramirez would be replacing the only LH batter in the lineup...

[JFD]

I'm not sure where you got this stat. But I think you're wrong.

 

Jays have the 10th highest OPS in 8-9 innings against RHP. Overall against RHP they had the highest OPS league wide.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr=2&splitArrPitch=&position=B&autoPt=false&splitTeams=false&statType=team&statgroup=2&startDate=2021-03-01&endDate=2021-11-01&players=&filter=&groupBy=season&wxTemperature=&wxPressure=&wxAirDensity=&wxElevation=&wxWindSpeed=&sort=9,1

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr=50,51,52,53,2&splitArrPitch=&position=B&autoPt=false&splitTeams=false&statType=team&statgroup=2&startDate=2021-03-01&endDate=2021-11-01&players=&filter=&groupBy=season&wxTemperature=&wxPressure=&wxAirDensity=&wxElevation=&wxWindSpeed=&sort=15,1

 

That doesn't look insignificant to me but like I said in a previous post, it could be inexperience as much as handedness so there is no reason to panic.. yet. But If this trend continues, something needs to be done.

[Jimcanuck]

Even if this were true (and the posts below suggest it isn't) Ramirez would be replacing the only LH batter in the lineup...

 

No more McGuire. That's reason enough to unload a prospect horde for Ramirez right there.