2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Grant77]

Grant - would you have said the same thing about eliminating the takeout slide too? I think that was one of the best improvements made in my lifetime.

 

I'd be interested to know why the players just hate long extra inning games. I can't imagine they find them boring. Higher risk of injury? Throws off their schedules (planes, buses, rest time, etc.)? Is it because they don't get paid more to play more (which sounds like something a union would complain about)?

 

I supported the takeout slide rule, although the implementation of the rule was a huge mess, as we saw on the following opening day.

 

It didn't come off as gimmicky to me. These players get whole lot of money and there were insurance issues at play. I don't think fans looked at stuff like the Hal McRae slide as an essential part of the game either.

 

This rule is more akin to adding an extra runner to third base or something if there is a takeout slide. It's altering the most basic rules of the game. It's not a minor tweak like making bigger bases or moving the mound back.

 

The impetus for this extra innings nonsense is animosity between the players and owners. The players want to do less work at the expense of the fan experience at a time when baseball desperately needs more fans.

[John_Havok]

"The players want to do less work at the expense of the fan experience at a time when baseball desperately needs more fans."

 

I don't think that has anything to do with it, nor is it "animosity" between owners and players. They agreed to do it in the COVID shortened season in order to minimize added problems, and it turns out the player's really liked that it ends games faster.

 

I doubt it's any more complicated than that.

[InsideThePark]

Runner on 1st starting in the 12 inning I could stomach. It's still difficult to score a runner from 1st but it would end games sooner. Plus it gives 2 extra innings of normal baseball before we bring the partial farce into play.

 

anything different in the 10th and any inning with a runner starting on 2nd is a no.

[wamco]

Agreed

[King]

Have it in the regular season but not in the postseason.

[Grant77]

"The players want to do less work at the expense of the fan experience at a time when baseball desperately needs more fans."

 

I don't think that has anything to do with it, nor is it "animosity" between owners and players. They agreed to do it in the COVID shortened season in order to minimize added problems, and it turns out the player's really liked that it ends games faster.

 

I doubt it's any more complicated than that.

 

Why do they like it? It's surely exactly what I said.

[John_Havok]

Why do they like it? It's surely exactly what I said.

 

Yes, I’m sure all the players just gathered up and decided to like something purely to spite the fans and their experience.

[Grant77]

Yes, I’m sure all the players just gathered up and decided to like something purely to spite the fans and their experience.

 

I'm not interested in engaging in hyperbole. If you want to have a real discussion then say something constructive.

[Dick_Pole]

The players are showing an absolutely shameful level of disrespect for the game that they play and the guys that came before them. There's really no other way to spin it.

 

I'm not going at this from a purist point of view either. I support things like the universal DH and automated umpires. This, however, is akin to changing how many balls or strikes it takes to get a batter out. It fundamentally alters how the game is played.

 

Agreed. If they are THIS dead set against marathon games, just invoke a f***ing tie after completion of the 12th inning. Not that damn hard.

[Deadpool]

Agreed. If they are THIS dead set against marathon games, just invoke a f***ing tie after completion of the 12th inning. Not that damn hard.

 

Yeah, I MUCH prefer the idea of a tie than the ghostrunner. It DOES mean someone will have to do math though...

[Olerud363]

Yeah, I MUCH prefer the idea of a tie than the ghostrunner. It DOES mean someone will have to do math though...

 

I can't believe people would rather have a tie than a ghost runner. I don't care too much either way about the ghost runner but the tie would ruin the historical meaning of wins and losses.

 

Everything works out great. Peak Blue Jays 2022-28, rivalling the historic 85-93 run. Will they finally crack the 100 win barrier? (No Jays team has ever done that)

 

Peak team

 

89-59-14 What a year!

 

I can't believe anybody would rather see great teams go 89-59-14 than see a ghost runner.

 

Jays were 3-9 in ghost runner games last year... have to think that drove people crazy seeing the ghost runner losses... it was frustrating. I bet if Jays go 10-6 in ghost runner games this year, everybody will forget they hate it.

[Olerud363]

Yeah, I MUCH prefer the idea of a tie than the ghostrunner. It DOES mean someone will have to do math though...

 

The playoff race is heating up. It's down to the Jays and the hated Red Sox for the last spot. And Verdugo drives one the other way! Over the monster. That ties the game 2-2 and this is the tie that the Red Sox need to make the playoffs

 

Sox 86-58-16

Jays 88-62-12

 

But Buck! Jays had 2 more wins? How can Red Sox beat them? Well Pat, it's very complicated but Red sox had 4 more ties and hold the tie breakers. So they make the playoffs on Verdugo's tieing homerun that chinches the tie that clinches the tie breaker that gets the Red Sox into the playoffs.

[Stangstag]

The playoff race is heating up. It's down to the Jays and the hated Red Sox for the last spot. And Verdugo drives one the other way! Over the monster. That ties the game 2-2 and this is the tie that the Red Sox need to make the playoffs

 

Sox 86-58-16

Jays 88-62-12

 

But Buck! Jays had 2 more wins? How can Red Sox beat them? Well Pat, it's very complicated but Red sox had 4 more ties and hold the tie breakers. So they make the playoffs on Verdugo's tieing homerun that chinches the tie that clinches the tie breaker that gets the Red Sox into the playoffs.

 

Win = 3 points

Tie = 1 point

 

Solved

[Deadpool]

I can't believe people would rather have a tie than a ghost runner. I don't care too much either way about the ghost runner but the tie would ruin the historical meaning of wins and losses.

 

Everything works out great. Peak Blue Jays 2022-28, rivalling the historic 85-93 run. Will they finally crack the 100 win barrier? (No Jays team has ever done that)

 

Peak team

 

89-59-14 What a year!

 

I can't believe anybody would rather see great teams go 89-59-14 than see a ghost runner.

 

Jays were 3-9 in ghost runner games last year... have to think that drove people crazy seeing the ghost runner losses... it was frustrating. I bet if Jays go 10-6 in ghost runner games this year, everybody will forget they hate it.

 

If a team can lose a game by giving up nothing but a bloop single, does the "win" still have any actual value?

 

Would it be better if they settled it via coin flip? Or they just set up a Foxy Boxing ring over the pitchers mound and decided the winner that way? (I like that last idea more than I like the ghostrunner, actually...)

 

While I'd prefer that nothing changes and we just accept that a small percentage of games go over 9 innings (according to this: http://https://www.quora.com/What-percent-of-baseball-games-reach-each-inning?share=1 which I admit I haven't checked for accuracy, we're talking < 4% of games even reaching extra innings), my second choice would be the foxy boxing thing (sadly, that doesn't appear to be on the table), but my third choice would be to just call it a tie after 12 innings or something.

 

I will amend my opinion if the ghostrunner is forced to dress as a circus clown to reflect the absolute clownshow of a rule.

[Grant77]

If a team can lose a game by giving up nothing but a bloop single, does the "win" still have any actual value?

 

Would it be better if they settled it via coin flip? Or they just set up a Foxy Boxing ring over the pitchers mound and decided the winner that way? (I like that last idea more than I like the ghostrunner, actually...)

 

While I'd prefer that nothing changes and we just accept that a small percentage of games go over 9 innings (according to this: http://https://www.quora.com/What-percent-of-baseball-games-reach-each-inning?share=1 which I admit I haven't checked for accuracy, we're talking < 4% of games even reaching extra innings), my second choice would be the foxy boxing thing (sadly, that doesn't appear to be on the table), but my third choice would be to just call it a tie after 12 innings or something.

 

I will amend my opinion if the ghostrunner is forced to dress as a circus clown to reflect the absolute clownshow of a rule.

 

Better yet, a player could essentially throw a perfect game and lose. I'd much prefer a tie or a coin flip to having a Manfred Man on second each inning. Extra innings play such an integral role in baseball's best moments and historical achievements. It literally disgusts me that they want to alter the game in such a profound manner.

[L54]

I find it really weird that you would prefer to determine a winner via coin flip vs actually playing the game and then go on to talk about how much it disgusts you that the league and players don’t want 18 inning marathons

[Olerud363]

If a team can lose a game by giving up nothing but a bloop single, does the "win" still have any actual value?

 

Would it be better if they settled it via coin flip? Or they just set up a Foxy Boxing ring over the pitchers mound and decided the winner that way? (I like that last idea more than I like the ghostrunner, actually...)

 

While I'd prefer that nothing changes and we just accept that a small percentage of games go over 9 innings (according to this: http://https://www.quora.com/What-percent-of-baseball-games-reach-each-inning?share=1 which I admit I haven't checked for accuracy, we're talking < 4% of games even reaching extra innings), my second choice would be the foxy boxing thing (sadly, that doesn't appear to be on the table), but my third choice would be to just call it a tie after 12 innings or something.

 

I will amend my opinion if the ghostrunner is forced to dress as a circus clown to reflect the absolute clownshow of a rule.

 

Each team is playing under the same conditions. You can only win the game with a bloop single, if your reliever stops the other team from scoring with 0-out and a runner on second. So yes. The win with a bloop single is deserved, because it's not just the bloop single that won it.

[Olerud363]

Win = 3 points

Tie = 1 point

 

Solved

 

 

That doesn't solve it because then you have a worse problem

 

Red Sox 91-71-0 Points 273

Jays 90-70-2 Points 272

 

In this case the Red Sox beat the Jays, who had no opportunity to resolve the tied games. And do people really want baseball teams having 270 points?

 

A history of baseballs best teams...

 

The 1998 Yankees with 342 points are second only to the 2001 Mariners with 348 points. Modern teams rarely get more than 325 points, because the tie is only worth 1 point.

 

I'm not even strongly for the ghost rule, just amazed at the other hokey rules people would be willing to have instead.

[Deadpool]

That doesn't solve it because then you have a worse problem

 

Red Sox 91-71-0 Points 273

Jays 90-70-2 Points 272

 

In this case the Red Sox beat the Jays, who had no opportunity to resolve the tied games. And do people really want baseball teams having 270 points?

 

A history of baseballs best teams...

 

The 1998 Yankees with 342 points are second only to the 2001 Mariners with 348 points. Modern teams rarely get more than 325 points, because the tie is only worth 1 point.

 

I'm not even strongly for the ghost rule, just amazed at the other hokey rules people would be willing to have instead.

 

My preference (and it's not close) is to leave it as is. VERY FEW GAMES go past 9 innings, and that number drops for each additional inning. If there were like 50 18 inning games a season there's a problem that needs to be addressed, but there might be one 18 inning game every few seasons. It's like passing a specific law banning dogs from driving, I'm sure some (probably drunk/high) people have put their dogs behind the wheel before, but it's not a big enough problem to worry about.

[John_Havok]

I'm not interested in engaging in hyperbole. If you want to have a real discussion then say something constructive.

 

Its impossible to have a constructive converstaion with you in many cases. When your mind is made up, literally nothing can be said to change your mind. Im not even disputing the ghost runner being a dumb idea, just your assertion that the players are doing it out of some malice to the game and the fans.

 

They just want to get on the plane and get to bed sooner without it screwing them over for the next 3 days. It's a perfectly normal human reaction to avoid stressors that can be avoided.

[Laika]

I just cannot wrap my head around how:

 

1. runner starting on 2nd is an abomination that is disrespectful to the ghost of Cap Anson

 

but

 

2. letting games end in a tie is fine

 

You can only hold opinion 1. if your other opinions are basically "they should never change anything about how the games are played, judged, or decided"

 

like, even having the pitchers not hit is a fundamental chance to game mechanics...

[Dick_Pole]

Olerud's asinine example notwithstanding, realistically it'll be like 1-2 ties a team per year. The NFL occasionally has ties and it does fine. Baseball has had plenty of ties in the past. The integrity of the game won't be ruined because they aren't going to start giving away participation points like in the NHL then have a home run derby afterwards.

[Terminator]

Ties are garbage and anyone supporting them is outing themselves as a hockey above baseball fan.

[glory]

People will get used to the ghost runner and within 3-5 years it will be considered common place. Change usually sucks, especially as we get older, but often times it is necessary. This is just the beginning. The game is going to change, and it has to. This is just one way to help baseball's time issue.

[L54]

I would rather start with the bases loaded than have a coin flip or a tie

[Dick_Pole]

And baseball is still skirting around the real issue that is causing all of these problems that Manfred is trying to band-aid over with dumb ideas. Stop having each team employ 30+ pitchers on its roster throughout the course of the year. The Jays had 38 pitchers last year. In the 1991 season, same 91-71 record, they had 20.

 

Limit teams to 20 pitchers in a year. Your #20 guy needs surgery? Too bad, you're throwing your shortstop on the damn mound. You should have used your roster spots more wisely. Games won't go 18 innings because teams won't have an army of generic arms that can throw 98 at max effort for 15 pitches then ship them out the next day for the next set of generic arms the next game. The three batter rule won't be needed because roster limitations will force teams to develop more Rich Gossages and less Randy Choates, just naturally.

[Deadpool]

Ties are garbage and anyone supporting them is outing themselves as a hockey above baseball fan.

 

Yeah, ties suck. They just happen to suck less than giving a win to the first team who can manage to hit a single.

[Brownie19]

And baseball is still skirting around the real issue that is causing all of these problems that Manfred is trying to band-aid over with dumb ideas. Stop having each team employ 30+ pitchers on its roster throughout the course of the year. The Jays had 38 pitchers last year. In the 1991 season, same 91-71 record, they had 20.

 

Limit teams to 20 pitchers in a year. Your #20 guy needs surgery? Too bad, you're throwing your shortstop on the damn mound. You should have used your roster spots more wisely. Games won't go 18 innings because teams won't have an army of generic arms that can throw 98 at max effort for 15 pitches then ship them out the next day for the next set of generic arms the next game. The three batter rule won't be needed because roster limitations will force teams to develop more Rich Gossages and less Randy Choates, just naturally.

 

Rich Gossage is a f***ing **** - let's not develop more people like him please. Thanks.

 

And man would we see the offense go through the roof if we went with your suggestion. It would be the steriod era all over again (and maybe that's good!)

[Dick_Pole]

And teams like Tampa couldn't develop a bullpen on a shoestring budget. Win win. Instead of releasing relievers before they head to arbitration, teams would actually have to pay for the quality ones.

[Krylian]

I just cannot wrap my head around how:

 

1. runner starting on 2nd is an abomination that is disrespectful to the ghost of Cap Anson

 

but

 

2. letting games end in a tie is fine

 

You can only hold opinion 1. if your other opinions are basically "they should never change anything about how the games are played, judged, or decided"

 

like, even having the pitchers not hit is a fundamental chance to game mechanics...

 

I'd rather see a tie than the ridiculous ghost runner