Jays sign Yimi Garcia

[Virgil_Hiltz]

Having a deep, quality pen may help attract some pitchers who are "betting on themselves" next season.

The Jays didn't make the playoffs by dying a death of a 1000 cuts from the bullpen. This signing just helps by not having to roll out the cuts administered by the Chatwoods and Dolis's of this world.

[Grant77]

He was a closer in Miami and had success at the end of 2020, 2021 to the point the Astros a playoff bound team went out to acquire him and mixed him into the late innings roles.

 

He is not a middle reliever.

 

Additionally, he has playoff experience in high leverage situations which is good for our team.

 

I think that most of us would agree that paying several million extra for 'closer experience' is not a smart thing to do. It's a virtual guarantee that similarly talented relievers will be available for far less in the coming months.

[Carlos Danger]

I think that most of us would agree that paying several million extra for 'closer experience' is not a smart thing to do. It's a virtual guarantee that similarly talented relievers will be available for far less in the coming months.

 

It has been proven time and time again that not every RP has the mental make up for the high leverage role. Even if they have the, "stuff", they can't handle the pressure, block out the night before or or are outside their comfort zone. Guys who thrive in the 7th don't necessarily thrive in the 9th.

 

To me it is important to have depth behind Romero or if he pitched the days prior etc.. Just filling the BP with RPs does not give us the options I want. The pen was a glaring weakness and I am in favor of this move and hope it is one of many more to come with reference to the pen.

[Jays24]

I'm not a fan of a multi year commitment to a middle reliever. He hasn't even been worth 11 million over an entire 7 year career (1.2 fWAR).

 

Surely we could have found someone comparable on the non tender market or on a cheaper deal like we have several times in the past.

 

Clippard, Axford, Oh, Hudson, Font, Phelps, Bass, Dolis, Cole. I was happy with all of those moves. Atkins has a knack for finding good arms on the cheap.

 

Going the cheap arm route is exactly what led us to having one of the worst bullpens in baseball. We needed to improve the bottom end of our bullpen desperately and this might help do it.

 

Now we need to add at least 1 elite bullpen arm this offseason to finish that area off and hope for good health.

[Grant77]

It has been proven time and time again that not every RP has the mental make up for the high leverage role. Even if they have the, "stuff", they can't handle the pressure, block out the night before or or are outside their comfort zone. Guys who thrive in the 7th don't necessarily thrive in the 9th.

 

To me it is important to have depth behind Romero or if he pitched the days prior etc.. Just filling the BP with RPs does not give us the options I want. The pen was a glaring weakness and I am in favor of this move and hope it is one of many more to come with reference to the pen.

 

I don't subscribe to this notion that simply pitching late in games makes a player better at it. Garcia is a barely above replacement level reliever and unless that suddenly changes in 2022, then we overpaid by quite a bit.

 

If you want a slightly more accurate, but still flawed, representation of Garcia's superior mental makeup and performance under pressure then try WPA.

 

Career: -3.12 wins

2021: -0.48 wins

Postseason: -0.73 wins

 

Fangraphs 'Clutch' stat, which I don't know a ton about, but is defined as how well a player pitches in high leverage situations, has him at -4.71 wins.

 

A high leverage reliever indeed.

[Jimcanuck]

Please stop trying to make arm barn happen

 

But think of the poor animals.

 

 

 

It's being done as a joke. A friend of mine that is all about saving pigs from slaughter has 3 full grown pigs with full residence access. Nutty.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Jimcanuck

[Carlos Danger]

I don't subscribe to this notion that simply pitching late in games makes a player better at it. Garcia is a barely above replacement level reliever and unless that suddenly changes in 2022, then we overpaid by quite a bit.

 

If you want a slightly more accurate, but still flawed, representation of Garcia's superior mental makeup and performance under pressure then try WPA.

 

Career: -3.12 wins

2021: -0.48 wins

Postseason: -0.73 wins

 

Fangraphs 'Clutch' stat, which I don't know a ton about, but is defined as how well a player pitches in high leverage situations, has him at -4.71 wins.

 

A high leverage reliever indeed.

 

If I interpret your posts correctly, you feel that a pen can be built on the cheap and RPs are very interchangeable etc. In theory maybe. However, hasn’t worked for the Jays and they don’t need to be doing the same thing with the pen every year and expect different results.

 

Garcia had 15 saves as a closer at the trade deadline on a mediocre team. Then with the Astros, his FIP deceased and his K/BB rate went up. This was after the spin rate/substance enforcement.

 

To me, doesn’t matter what he did with the Dodgers. I am looking at what he brings to our overall pen based on his work with Miami and the Astros. Both teams who excel at identifying good pitching.

 

In the big picture IMO, dumb not to do the deal just to save a few dollars relatively.

[L54]

Relievers are such a crapshoot that I’ll trust the FO with all the info we don’t have access to. There is no need to overpay for a middle reliever in November so it’s safe to assume they view Garcia as a guy who can make an impact in the pen.

[Skinny Wolf]

There are hundreds of players like Garcia available. Why the rush and overpay. With that amount of money, we can sign 2-3 similar guys in Feb.

[max silver]

There are hundreds of players like Garcia available. Why the rush and overpay. With that amount of money, we can sign 2-3 similar guys in Feb.

 

There are not hundreds of relievers with major league experience and available in free agency. The rush to sign a guy like this is due to the limited supply and the obvious need in the bullpen. There is zero guarantee there isn't a lockout in February, and if all of the preferred players are gone by the time the ability to sign players returns then all that's left is scraps. There will be cheap relievers brought in as depth later on, this signing does nothing to prevent that.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Hundreds?

 

Lol

[Dick_Pole]

What the hell are you guys yammering on about closer experience? The guy had half a season of closer experience for a basement team and judging by the numbers wasn't great at it. He's basically Cliff Politte, put in the role by default.

 

That being said, this was a rather aggressive signing both in terms of timing and dollars so I subscribe to the Terminator and L54 view of things that the team thinks they can get something more out of the guy rather than the Grant view that they overpaid for a shitbag. So I remain cautiously optimistic. Not all buy low candidates are necessarily found in the discount bin. Something you have to pay for quality and act fast.

[Jonn]

Decent signing but this bullpen needs substantially more swing and miss

[L54]

I’d love to add Corey Knebel next

[Key22]

What the hell are you guys yammering on about closer experience? The guy had half a season of closer experience for a basement team and judging by the numbers wasn't great at it. He's basically Cliff Politte, put in the role by default.

 

That being said, this was a rather aggressive signing both in terms of timing and dollars so I subscribe to the Terminator and L54 view of things that the team thinks they can get something more out of the guy rather than the Grant view that they overpaid for a shitbag. So I remain cautiously optimistic. Not all buy low candidates are necessarily found in the discount bin. Something you have to pay for quality and act fast.

 

Ray and Matz were total s*** until they came here - so let's give Walker and crew some benefit of the doubt. Garcia has terrific stuff and some good peripherals - ugly numbers maybe but not as ugly as Ray or Matz at the time they came aboard.

 

Our pen was already much improved when they acquired Richards and Cimber. Had these two guys been in our pen all year we would have won 93 games for sure. So with those two and Romero and Mayza and now Garcia - it's not a total trainwreck anymore. We have 5 good arms out of the pen. Merryweather, Hatch and Borucki, I'd include but they all seem made out of glass. Still, they make for respectable depth options when healthy.

 

Given the free-agent market, it appears like everyone is paying 1 more year than projections. Ray is likely getting 7 years at $25m per - the Jays lost 7 WAR in Semien can they lose another 6.5 WAR in Ray? 91 wins - 13 wins. Where are the 13 wins coming from? And we need 14-15.

[Grant77]

If I interpret your posts correctly, you feel that a pen can be built on the cheap and RPs are very interchangeable etc. In theory maybe. However, hasn’t worked for the Jays and they don’t need to be doing the same thing with the pen every year and expect different results.

 

Garcia had 15 saves as a closer at the trade deadline on a mediocre team. Then with the Astros, his FIP deceased and his K/BB rate went up. This was after the spin rate/substance enforcement.

 

To me, doesn’t matter what he did with the Dodgers. I am looking at what he brings to our overall pen based on his work with Miami and the Astros. Both teams who excel at identifying good pitching.

 

In the big picture IMO, dumb not to do the deal just to save a few dollars relatively.

 

You are not interpreting my posts correctly.

 

Yimi Garcia, unless he sees a significant change from his career norms, is not better than the cheap guys we have been adding under this regime. Guys like Tyler Clippard, Daniel Hudson, Anthony Bass, etc.

 

Why are we paying 11 million for a guy like that when we know we can get better guys for cheaper? I wasn't against signing Liam Hendriks or a guy like Kendall Graveman. Spending significant dollars on a mediocre middle reliever is foolish in my view.

[Jimcanuck]

Shatkins >>>>>> Grant

[Grant77]

Shatkins >>>>>> Grant

 

Certainly true, but this forum doesn't exist if we don't discuss the players.

 

I hope that Pete Walker has something in his back pocket and makes Garcia a valuable reliever.

[max silver]

Certainly true, but this forum doesn't exist if we don't discuss the players.

 

I hope that Pete Walker has something in his back pocket and makes Garcia a valuable reliever.

 

If he can replicate what he did with the Astros he will provide plenty of value, over a full season that would make him around a 1 win reliever.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Still hoping they grab Iglesias. He seems durable and he's also been very consistent.

 

If not, then Mchugh.

 

If they can do that, plus bring in a couple depth guys or cheaper gamble type guys the bullpen would be in great shape on paper.

 

Iglesias/Mchugh

Romano

Mayza

Cimber

Richards

Garcia

Merryweather

Yates/Rosenthal/Phelps (gamble)

 

I'd be pretty happy with that I think

[Grant77]

If he can replicate what he did with the Astros he will provide plenty of value, over a full season that would make him around a 1 win reliever.

 

Forgive me if I put more stock into a 7 year career where he has never reached that total than a 21 inning sample. I'm just not seeing what makes a pitcher like this worth 11 million at this juncture of the offseason where a lot of better relievers are still available.

[max silver]

Forgive me if I put more stock into a 7 year career where he has never reached that total than a 21 inning sample. I'm just not seeing what makes a pitcher like this worth 11 million at this juncture of the offseason where a lot of better relievers are still available.

 

It appears as though the Astros helped him to make some tweaks which directly led to improved results. I heard that he picked up a two seamer with the Astros which was a difference maker for him. He dropped his walk rate and increased his k rate a bunch during his time in Houston, so if those improvements carry forward he could be a real asset out of the pen. It's a bit of a gamble obviously but his salary isn't nearly large enough to really have any concerns in my view, and there with the premium stuff that he features there is potential for more.

[Grant77]

It appears as though the Astros helped him to make some tweaks which directly led to improved results. I heard that he picked up a two seamer with the Astros which was a difference maker for him. He dropped his walk rate and increased his k rate a bunch during his time in Houston, so if those improvements carry forward he could be a real asset out of the pen. It's a bit of a gamble obviously but his salary isn't nearly large enough to really have any concerns in my view, and there with the premium stuff that he features there is potential for more.

 

I'm still pretty dubious. His walk rate with Houston was exactly his career average and he had 2 extra strikeouts more than you would expect from his career average.

 

We're using those two strikeouts to determine that he is a new pitcher? The new pitch is interesting, but there's really nothing there in the stats. I think you're grasping at straws with all due respect.

 

I'd be more inclined to pay the extra for a truly elite reliever and trust the FO to fill the rest with cheaper guys that they have had a lot of success finding.

[max silver]

I'm still pretty dubious. His walk rate with Houston was exactly his career average and he had 2 extra strikeouts more than you would expect from his career average.

 

We're using those two strikeouts to determine that he is a new pitcher? The new pitch is interesting, but there's really nothing there in the stats. I think you're grasping at straws with all due respect.

 

I'd be more inclined to pay the extra for a truly elite reliever and trust the FO to fill the rest with cheaper guys that they have had a lot of success finding.

 

I see a pitcher with an elite combination of velocity and spin rate who has potential to be a massive contributor with the right tweaks. Even if he continues as a more or less average reliever that's a worthwhile gamble to take. It's really a low risk high reward signing similar to the Yates deal last offseason, except Garcia is less likely to miss the entire season than was the case with Yates.

[Grant77]

I see a pitcher with an elite combination of velocity and spin rate who has potential to be a massive contributor with the right tweaks. Even if he continues as a more or less average reliever that's a worthwhile gamble to take. It's really a low risk high reward signing similar to the Yates deal last offseason, except Garcia is less likely to miss the entire season than was the case with Yates.

 

I hope he turns into the reliever that you are envisioning, but it's a real pie in the sky scenario. We'll have to see what happens.

[Carlos Danger]

I hope he turns into the reliever that you are envisioning, but it's a real pie in the sky scenario. We'll have to see what happens.

 

He only needs to be the pitcher he was in Miami end of 2020 and 2021 and it will be an improvement in our pen. I don’t think Dollis, Bass and Loup that you mentioned earlier just off the top of my head are apples and apples. I think Garcia is better then all three.

[Grant77]

He only needs to be the pitcher he was in Miami end of 2020 and 2021 and it will be an improvement in our pen. I don’t think Dollis, Bass and Loup that you mentioned earlier just off the top of my head are apples and apples. I think Garcia is better then all three.

 

I didn't mention Loup, but he isn't and has never been better than any of those pitchers. You are incorrect.

 

We'll see if Pete Walker can change his career trajectory. I sure hope so.

[John_Havok]

I'm still pretty dubious. His walk rate with Houston was exactly his career average and he had 2 extra strikeouts more than you would expect from his career average.

 

We're using those two strikeouts to determine that he is a new pitcher? The new pitch is interesting, but there's really nothing there in the stats. I think you're grasping at straws with all due respect.

 

I'd be more inclined to pay the extra for a truly elite reliever and trust the FO to fill the rest with cheaper guys that they have had a lot of success finding.

 

Yeah but you don’t get elite relievers for 2 years 11 million. That’s the going rate for a guy with Garcia’s numbers. Realistically his only problem last year was a ridiculously impossible strand rate in Houston of like 40%.

[Carlos Danger]

I didn't mention Loup, but he isn't and has never been better than any of those pitchers. You are incorrect.

 

We'll see if Pete Walker can change his career trajectory. I sure hope so.

 

How can you say he is not better than any of those three? Bass was on the same team as him and was the set up guy, not the closer, and Garcia did not lose his job to him at any point. Dolis is a soft tossing dude who got DFAd and ain't getting a 11 million dollar deal. Loup had an awesome year last year but is really only a lefty specialist. Not sure if that same Loup will emerge next year based on my memories of him in TO. Regardless, $11 million over two years is not a lot to be worried about.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Jays gave $5.5 million to Kirby f***ing Yates last off season.

 

They will pay Garcia the same this year, what is the big deal?