The Blue Jays sever all ties with Roberto Alomar after sexual misconduct review

[Terminator]

Very cool that the team's only HoFer is now a disgraced (alleged) sexual predator who has no ties to the team anymore.

 

That’s not great! Shapiro is doing a fine job but if he’s got any blind spots it’s that he gives absolutely zero shits about franchise history.

[TwistedLogic]

That’s not great! Shapiro is doing a fine job but if he’s got any blind spots it’s that he gives absolutely zero shits about franchise history.

 

Uhh, what? What does Shapiro have to do with the franchise's only hall of famer disgracing himself and the team by being an (allegedly) garbage person?

[Grant77]

You have this exactly backwards, actually.

 

Reductio ad absurdum is a way if destroying bad positions by showing the extreme example.

 

If you say "no player should be removed from the level of excellence for something that happens after their playing career" your position is quite flimsy and easily reduced through an extreme example.

 

Maybe you should go back to school? You seem to be getting stupid as you age.

 

Right now nobody can judge if removing Alomar was appropriate because we don't know what he did, but you have already taken a position on this. So you get squashed like a bug. Have a nice weekend.

 

I am fully aware of what the term means without your copy paste explanation. That should be rather obvious after I correctly identified how both you and King were trying to frame your argument.

 

It's entirely ineffective and inappropriate in this case. We have a pretty good idea of the range of things that Alomar could have done to receive this punishment. Being a mass murderer or serial child rapist clearly doesn't fit within that range.

 

People who think guys like Pete Rose and presumably Roberto Alomar with non criminal transgressions can remain a part of baseball history to some extent would clearly be capable of reevuating their stance should an Aaron Hernandez situation arise.

[Oh Canada]

So if he shot up a preschool and murdered a bunch of innocent kids he should still be on the level of excellence because it was after his playing career?

 

The level represents what kind of a team mate and ballplayer you were, not what you did outside the game !! He was a guy who when made mad would spit into the face of an umpire which was the most disrespectful thing I ever saw on the field of play but he was still awarded the honor. I think it should not be taken down. I would love to hear the details on the woman and what he did was so bad and why it took all these years to report it ??

[Jimcanuck]

The level represents what kind of a team mate and ballplayer you were, not what you did outside the game !! He was a guy who when made mad would spit into the face of an umpire which was the most disrespectful thing I ever saw on the field of play but he was still awarded the honor. I think it should not be taken down. I would love to hear the details on the woman and what he did was so bad and why it took all these years to report it ??

 

It's quite possible, as it often when these things occurred in the past, is she reported it and nothing was done, or the wrong things were done.

[Laika]

I am fully aware of what the term means without your copy paste explanation. That should be rather obvious after I correctly identified how both you and King were trying to frame your argument.

 

It's entirely ineffective and inappropriate in this case. We have a pretty good idea of the range of things that Alomar could have done to receive this punishment. Being a mass murderer or serial child rapist clearly doesn't fit within that range.

 

People who think guys like Pete Rose and presumably Roberto Alomar with non criminal transgressions can remain a part of baseball history to some extent would clearly be capable of reevuating their stance should an Aaron Hernandez situation arise.

 

1) you literally said something was a "logical fallacy" when it is not. Everyone can see your initial post and your first response to King.

2) your initial position was that the man should not be removed from the LOE for something that happened after his playing career. You said this while having no idea what he actually did. Nobody cares about this thing between you and King/I but if someone did it would be obvious to them how you've moved the goal posts and changed your position now.

3) MLB has a solid history of covering up or suppressing some massive s***. I'm not going to assume that Alomar just committed some routine workplace sexual misconduct, like asking her out on a date too many times or brushing her arm suggestively. For all we know he squirted his AIDS filled jizz into some woman's morning coffee every morning for an entire year.

[Terminator]

Can we leave Alomar on the Level of Excellence but just put an asterisk next to his name?

[Terminator]

 

Rosie DiManno not holding back lol

[Grant77]

1) you literally said something was a "logical fallacy" when it is not. Everyone can see your initial post and your first response to King.

2) your initial position was that the man should not be removed from the LOE for something that happened after his playing career. You said this while having no idea what he actually did. Nobody cares about this thing between you and King/I but if someone did it would be obvious to them how you've moved the goal posts and changed your position now.

3) MLB has a solid history of covering up or suppressing some massive s***. I'm not going to assume that Alomar just committed some routine workplace sexual misconduct, like asking her out on a date too many times or brushing her arm suggestively. For all we know he squirted his AIDS filled jizz into some woman's morning coffee every morning for an entire year.

 

Except that you rehashed the exact same argument as King and called it a logical fallacy. You made a stupid statement and got called out on it using a term that you don't understand and you are upset. We've been through this song and dance countless times. Continue trying to backpedal if you wish. Your incorrect statements are there for everyone to see, as you said.

 

I'm not going to assume that Alomar committed some outrageous criminal act just because you say so. You show tremendous disrespect and stupidity when you throw out these ridiculous scenarios like they are fact.

 

There's no information out there, so really the only thing to do is look at other cases like this and make an educated guess until there is actual information. Most recently, we have the Jared Porter incident to go from so we know a threshold for MLB to take things kind of action.

[Terminator]

Imagine employing a known scumbag with numerous on and off field scandals. Then imagine employing him for 6+ years and then he does another scumbag thing and you feign shock and outrage and cancel him from franchise history. I can't believe you delicate flowers are actually sticking up for the Jays brass here.

[Grant77]

Imagine employing a known scumbag with numerous on and off field scandals. Then imagine employing him for 6+ years and then he does another scumbag thing and you feign shock and outrage and cancel him from franchise history. I can't believe you delicate flowers are actually sticking up for the Jays brass here.

 

I see far more criticism of our front office than I do people defending them. It also seems that his main employment was with MLB and not so much the Blue Jays.

[Laika]

Except that you rehashed the exact same argument as King and called it a logical fallacy. You made a stupid statement and got called out on it using a term that you don't understand and you are upset.

 

There is not an ounce of truth here. Lie again and I will f***ing ban you permanently.

[Jimcanuck]

There is not an ounce of truth here. Lie again and I will f***ing ban you permanently.

 

That would be inappropriate. It's a disagreement, not a bannable offence.

[Laika]

That would be inappropriate. It's a disagreement, not a bannable offence.

 

Years long pattern of disingenuous lying, s*** disturbing, and purely negative board contributions. I'd stand by the permaban even if others disagreed.

 

Do us a third party favour and weigh in on the merits of the petty logical fallacy s*** here Jim. You'll agree that this guy is a f***ing loser and completely wrong. He always is. At some point you have to squash the bug.

[Terminator]

So the 30 year reunion of the back to back WS championships is coming up soon. Should we cancel the team reunion and celebrations because one of the key players is a pig?

[Laika]

So the 30 year reunion of the back to back WS championships is coming up soon. Should we cancel the team reunion and celebrations because one of the key players is a pig?

 

What point are you trying to make with this post? Be as specific as possible.

[Terminator]

What point are you trying to make with this post? Be as specific as possible.

 

What crawled up your butt and died tonight?

[Laika]

What crawled up your butt and died tonight?

 

Mexican food

 

Here's my point, Rosie DiManno. Taking someone's name off the 500 level facade and not engaging with them anymore does NOT equal "erasing them from history". Robbie Alomar still existed. Everything still happened. The 92 and 93 teams can still have a reunion sanctioned by the organization without Alomar being invited.

[TheHurl]

Shouldn't we as fans be more pissed at the Chapman's of the world than the Alomars for violating HR policies of a corporation that can be extremely sensitive to wanting to be progressive?

 

Somehow they get to keep playing but Alomar who is retired is being treated like dirt. Just weird and inconsistent approaches in society.

 

You do realize that Alomar was accused of pulling a knife on his wife...cause he was angry that he didn't get voted into the hall

[Jimcanuck]

Years long pattern of disingenuous lying, s*** disturbing, and purely negative board contributions. I'd stand by the permaban even if others disagreed.

 

Do us a third party favour and weigh in on the merits of the petty logical fallacy s*** here Jim. You'll agree that this guy is a f***ing loser and completely wrong. He always is. At some point you have to squash the bug.

 

Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical fallacy, but an indirect proof.

 

We don't know the details. Alomar may have caused the complainant grievous, permanent harm through reckless disregard / negligence.

 

A proposition that no one should be removed from the Level of Excellence for things that happen after their playing career is over, can be refuted by an absurdity argument. A rapist, a murderer even?

 

Neither is an unreasonableness argument possible. Because again, we don't know the details.

 

Third party determination, Grant is wrong.

 

The matter does not rise to the level of a permaban, but a healthy dose of BJMB humiliation is appropriate.

[BTS]

How does Grant so consistently find himself in these kinds of interactions? It must be exhausting.

[Jimcanuck]

How does Grant so consistently find himself in these kinds of interactions? It must be exhausting.

 

A perpetual habit of adopting an entrenched position.

[Terminator]

Mexican food

 

Here's my point, Rosie DiManno. Taking someone's name off the 500 level facade and not engaging with them anymore does NOT equal "erasing them from history". Robbie Alomar still existed. Everything still happened. The 92 and 93 teams can still have a reunion sanctioned by the organization without Alomar being invited.

 

I've basically agreed with everything you've said so far. We don't really know what he did so it's hard to judge one way or the other. I don't know that I'm willing to give the team or MLB the benefit of the doubt though. Especially after the All Star game ********. I also think it's really rich for the team and MLB to pull this now when everyone knows who Alomar is. Dude has had scandals and a poor reputation chasing him for years but this current regime employed him for 5+ years anyway. I'm actually amazed it took this long for something to happen.

 

Without knowing what happened exactly (without any criminal charges my guess is it isn't anything worse than the other things he's done or been accused of doing before) the best move, IMO, would have been to just let him go but keep his name on the Level of Excellence. Yes, they can have the reunion but he's the only HoFer we have and he had some huge hits, perhaps the biggest in franchise history. It's sort of like having a Rolling Stones concert without Mick Jagger. You could do it but it'd be stupid.

 

And yeah, they can't literally erase him from history because it's impossible. But if they had a time machine I wouldn't put it past them.

[Grant77]

Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical fallacy, but an indirect proof.

 

We don't know the details. Alomar may have caused the complainant grievous, permanent harm through reckless disregard / negligence.

 

A proposition that no one should be removed from the Level of Excellence for things that happen after their playing career is over, can be refuted by an absurdity argument. A rapist, a murderer even?

 

Neither is an unreasonableness argument possible. Because again, we don't know the details.

 

Third party determination, Grant is wrong.

 

The matter does not rise to the level of a permaban, but a healthy dose of BJMB humiliation is appropriate.

 

It's pretty safe to say that Roberto Alomar is not a murderer. Saying that he is as a hypothetical does nothing to further the argument that he should be removed from the Level of Excellence.

 

This isn't something that can be proven absolutely correct or incorrect, but I will stand by that statement. Either way, NJH doesn't understand what he is talking about and it is hilarious how angry he got over being confused.

[Dick_Pole]

Imagine employing a known scumbag with numerous on and off field scandals. Then imagine employing him for 6+ years and then he does another scumbag thing and you feign shock and outrage and cancel him from franchise history. I can't believe you delicate flowers are actually sticking up for the Jays brass here.

 

Yes. Though I'm sure somewhere someone currently in the organization is drafting something to make Beeston the easy scapegoat. Just in case it comes up.

[Jimcanuck]

You are a lawyer, Terminator? You are aware that prosecutors will generally not pursue a criminal case, particularly of the sexual assault kind, if the victim does not want to be subjected to court proceedings and attacks on reputation, shaming / blaming the victim, etc.

 

The fact that there are no criminal charges, to date, says nothing about the seriousness of the matter.

[Terminator]

This is a pretty slippery slope! Just off the top of my head Kelly Gruber has had quite the colorful past. He's disinvited. Ricky Henderson has been accused of violence against females. He's out too. Paul Molitor did a bunch of coke during his career and cheated on his wife and had a couple of love children. Not sure if he should get the invite. If one went through all of the players I bet you could find dirt on almost half of them.

 

Heck, why stop at baseball. Kyle Lowry was arrested and charged with battery against a female referee in a charity basketball game. That's pretty f***ed up lol. The Raptors knowingly employ him to this day. Should they cut him? At the minimum they should disinvite him in 2 years when they have the championship reunion right?

[connorp]

You are a lawyer, Terminator? You are aware that prosecutors will generally not pursue a criminal case, particularly of the sexual assault kind, if the victim does not want to be subjected to court proceedings and attacks on reputation, shaming / blaming the victim, etc.

 

The fact that there are no criminal charges, to date, says nothing about the seriousness of the matter.

 

Who needs law school for that when you can watch some episodes of SVU

[Terminator]

You are a lawyer, Terminator? You are aware that prosecutors will generally not pursue a criminal case, particularly of the sexual assault kind, if the victim does not want to be subjected to court proceedings and attacks on reputation, shaming / blaming the victim, etc.

 

The fact that there are no criminal charges, to date, says nothing about the seriousness of the matter.

 

Yeah that's fair that's why I'm leaving room for something like that actually occurring and if that's the case then I can see where the Jays are coming from. But as I said before, I'm skeptical.

 

Also, I've witnessed you committing "sexual misconduct" on this board multiple times before so I'm not sure you should be pointing the finger bud.

[Jimcanuck]

Yeah that's fair that's why I'm leaving room for something like that actually occurring and if that's the case then I can see where the Jays are coming from. But as I said before, I'm skeptical.

 

Also, I've witnessed you committing "sexual misconduct" on this board multiple times before so I'm not sure you should be pointing the finger bud.

 

Oh really, tell me more about what I have committed. It was all between consenting adults, mate.