General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2021)

[bronson44]

Clearly they failed miserably in addressing the teams biggest need, which was bullpen help.

Whoever was pounding the table for Hand should be fired. He's costing them games for like 5M.

[TwistedLogic]

Snead optioned.

 

Luciano released.

 

Palacios called up.

 

Excited about Palacios being on the main roster. Good baserunner and was solid in limited time.

[Grant77]

Elvis has left the building.

[glory]

Why should the Blue Jays, who have money, act like the Rays, who are poor and will always be poor?

 

Toronto can just buy guys like Ryu and Springer on the open market. They don't need to hoard prospects and collect years of control forever and ever.

 

The Jays could have traded Semien and Ray, got back some good pieces, then tried to sign them back in the winter if they wanted to. Trading Semien and Ray wouldn't have been to save money, but to make the 2022 team as good as possible. In that sense the Berrios trade was at least defensible regardless of whether they bought or sold because of the extra year of control. The issue was whether they could have used Martin + SWR for something better (guess it's debatable what Martin's value to the industry actually was by the time he was moved). I mean, the freakin Mariners turned an impending FA into a potentially good player at 3B with many years of control left (Toro) and still created the illusion of trying to contend by making subsequent moves to help the team short term. The Jays could have done something like that too.

[glory]

I can think of no better way for the front office to have given a massive middle finger to the fans in Toronto attending the games than to have thrown in the towel at the trade deadline on a team that was well within striking distance . The team had been playing on the road for basically 2 years with a tremendous amount of excitement surrounding the team. This is ultimately an entertainment industry, and with some smart additions the team was poised to go on a run. Unfortunately that run seems to have ended with the Springer injury, but that was a circumstance that you wouldn't have necessarily expected unless you had a crystal ball available.

 

The issue is, if that was the team's rationale for doing what they did (and it most certainly was), then is that a good thing? The Jays were 2-3 wins away from the World Series in 2015 and 2016, yet by 2018 the fans couldn't have cared any less about the team as the stadium was routinely half empty. A bigger middle finger to the fans was what Shatkins did in 2017-18 by not pulling the trigger on a rebuild sooner (and I blame Rogers more than Shatkins for that). This deadline wasn't near as bad as that, but if the team had moved Semien/Ray and then were leading the division in June 2022, would anyone have looked back and cared that they "flipped the fans/players the bird" 12 months earlier?

 

Unfortunately the team is owned by a publicly traded company so every decision they make is for entertainment, ticket sales, and public perception. While the teams that don't give a s*** are usually the ones who can pivot easily based on circumstances (the cheap ass Rays).

[max silver]

The issue is, if that was the team's rationale for doing what they did (and it most certainly was), then is that a good thing? The Jays were 2-3 wins away from the World Series in 2015 and 2016, yet by 2018 the fans couldn't have cared any less about the team as the stadium was routinely half empty. A bigger middle finger to the fans was what Shatkins did in 2017-18 by not pulling the trigger on a rebuild sooner (and I blame Rogers more than Shatkins for that). This deadline wasn't near as bad as that, but if the team had moved Semien/Ray and then were leading the division in June 2022, would anyone have looked back and cared that they "flipped the fans/players the bird" 12 months earlier?

 

Unfortunately the team is owned by a publicly traded company so every decision they make is for entertainment, ticket sales, and public perception. While the teams that don't give a s*** are usually the ones who can pivot easily based on circumstances (the cheap ass Rays).

 

This criticism is all with the benefit of hindsight. Let's say Springer doesn't injure his knee and the team still continues rolling, and at this point is only a game out of a wildcard spot. That scenario isn't any less likely to have occurred. I think actually giving Ray and Semien and chance to play as Blue Jays in Toronto and appreciate the energy of the home crowd and proper facilities would help to retain each player. The trade deadline moves show that the club is serious about competing and not hoarding prospects any more and pinching pennies. Signalling to your own players and prospective off season free agent signings that you are serious about competing has to count for something. The Tampa Bay Rays are a very successful team but I sure as hell don't want the team I watch operating in the same kind of fashion the the Rays do.

[Blazeit420]

Would Preller go for Vlad + Bo for Tatis? Would be nice to have a young star who is actually good.

[Angrioter]

Instagram

WWW.INSTAGRAM.COM

 

 

Soto to Vladdy "You must finish strong for you to take that award to your home. Only one month of play left"

 

Vladdy "I will have a party at my house. Tatis already told me that he will go"

 

Vladdy "You only have 3 SB over me . You have 6 and I have 3. You are a truck just like me

[max silver]

Would Preller go for Vlad + Bo for Tatis? Would be nice to have a young star who is actually good.

 

Hell no. Trading two inexpensive franchise players for one extremely high paid player with a massive contract and chronic shoulder issues is a terrible idea.

[Blazeit420]

Hell no. Trading two inexpensive franchise players for one extremely high paid player with a massive contract and chronic shoulder issues is a terrible idea.

 

Vlad and Bo will get paid soon. Vlad will be elite for only 90-100 games a year because of his obesity. Bo has no plate discipline and his violent swings will cause injury soon or later.

[gruber92]

Would Preller go for Vlad + Bo for Tatis? Would be nice to have a young star who is actually good.

 

Lol

[gruber92]

Would Preller go for Vlad + Bo for Tatis? Would be nice to have a young star who is actually good.

 

Lol

[glory]

This criticism is all with the benefit of hindsight. Let's say Springer doesn't injure his knee and the team still continues rolling, and at this point is only a game out of a wildcard spot. That scenario isn't any less likely to have occurred. I think actually giving Ray and Semien and chance to play as Blue Jays in Toronto and appreciate the energy of the home crowd and proper facilities would help to retain each player. The trade deadline moves show that the club is serious about competing and not hoarding prospects any more and pinching pennies. Signalling to your own players and prospective off season free agent signings that you are serious about competing has to count for something. The Tampa Bay Rays are a very successful team but I sure as hell don't want the team I watch operating in the same kind of fashion the the Rays do.

 

I don't want to be the Rays either, but I do want to beat the Rays. That becomes a lot less likely in 2022 minus Semien and Ray, only getting comp picks to show for it, expecting the rotation to stay healthy most of the year again, expecting great individual performances again, etc. There is a point where hedging your bets a little bit does make sense, and the Jays didn't do that. The Yankees did it in 2016, and the following year they were one game away from a World Series only getting beat by a team that cheated to beat them. Good teams realize they have a better chance of living to fight another day rather than dying for a hail mary. Maybe the Jays getting a 2nd WC spot was a reasonable expectation at the deadline and not outlandish, and I would agree with that, but some times when you make decisions, you better be right or have to face criticism, and I think this is one of those times for Shatkins.

 

Again, I realize there was no chance in hell the Jays were going to sell any good players off just before coming home for the first time in 2 years, but I think it's fair to say it was a missed opportunity to not take advantage of a seller's market that baseball hasn't seen in at least 5 years, and may not see again with expanded playoffs on the horizon (teams won't sell good young players if getting to the playoffs is easier, but maybe I'm wrong on that).

[Jonn]

Snead optioned.

 

Luciano released.

 

Palacios called up.

 

Excited about Palacios being on the main roster. Good baserunner and was solid in limited time.

 

I wonder why they released Luciano. Isn’t he still like 21 and his numbers weren’t amazing but they looked fairly decent. He must have did something off the field to be outright released.

[Laika]

The Jays could have traded Semien and Ray, got back some good pieces, then tried to sign them back in the winter if they wanted to. Trading Semien and Ray wouldn't have been to save money, but to make the 2022 team as good as possible. In that sense the Berrios trade was at least defensible regardless of whether they bought or sold because of the extra year of control. The issue was whether they could have used Martin + SWR for something better (guess it's debatable what Martin's value to the industry actually was by the time he was moved). I mean, the freakin Mariners turned an impending FA into a potentially good player at 3B with many years of control left (Toro) and still created the illusion of trying to contend by making subsequent moves to help the team short term. The Jays could have done something like that too.

 

This isn't OOTP Baseball. Good luck signing Semien and Ray if you trade them away while only a few games back of a playoff spot.

 

The Mariners for absolutely crucified by their fans for that Toro trade. I like the trade for them but it's because the Mariners suck and their reasonable playoff chances are pretty abysmal.

[Laika]

SP wasn’t the glaring need. They save maybe what, .5 runs per start from production they were getting from Matz and Strip for like 12 starts? (So 6 runs?)… semi-elite RP or bat would’ve been better

 

Bad math because Stripling is hurt anyway so it's Berrios over like, f***ing Anthony Kay? And in theory Berrios is also a pen upgrade because you stick a healthy Stripling there.

 

SP who can really compete are a but 2022 need though.

[Eat My Shatkins]

On paper it sounds great, especially now in hindsight, to have sold at the deadline.

 

I think it was the right move though to show the team and the league that if they are in the fight the FO won't pull the rug out from under them.

 

Tough to do that to the players and then have them want to stick around long term.

 

Really sucks that our best all around SP and best (or 2nd best) all around position player are set to be FA's though.

[connorp]

Bad math because Stripling is hurt anyway so it's Berrios over like, f***ing Anthony Kay? And in theory Berrios is also a pen upgrade because you stick a healthy Stripling there.

 

SP who can really compete are a but 2022 need though.

 

Strip wasn’t hurt if I remember correctly, so that’s like saying Berrios deal was bad bc Springer got hurt

[Laika]

Strip wasn’t hurt if I remember correctly, so that’s like saying Berrios deal was bad bc Springer got hurt

 

No, because pitching injuries are predictable and expected. No team should ever think "well let's just hope our 5 decent SP stay healthy for the last 60 games" especially when options 6 and 7 are s***

[Eat My Shatkins]

 

Holy f***. That's awful.

[Stangstag]

On paper it sounds great, especially now in hindsight, to have sold at the deadline.

 

I think it was the right move though to show the team and the league that if they are in the fight the FO won't pull the rug out from under them.

 

Tough to do that to the players and then have them want to stick around long term.

 

Really sucks that our best all around SP and best (or 2nd best) all around position player are set to be FA's though.

 

The fact that we didn’t trade Semien and Ray and we can offer them the QO means we have a massive leg up on re-signing either of them. If we had traded them its more like a 0% chance they re-sign.

 

I’d say there’s a very good chance we sign Ray to a new deal. Semien maybe

[Eat My Shatkins]

The fact that we didn’t trade Semien and Ray and we can offer them the QO means we have a massive leg up on re-signing either of them. If we had traded them its more like a 0% chance they re-sign.

 

I’d say there’s a very good chance we sign Ray to a new deal. Semien maybe

 

Yeah, I think Ray will re-sign as well. Guys career was in the crapper, and he rejuvenated with the Jays, and he could have left last off season too but chose to stay.

[glory]

This isn't OOTP Baseball. Good luck signing Semien and Ray if you trade them away while only a few games back of a playoff spot.

 

The Mariners for absolutely crucified by their fans for that Toro trade. I like the trade for them but it's because the Mariners suck and their reasonable playoff chances are pretty abysmal.

 

2016: Yankees are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded Chapman to the Cubs.

2021: Blue Jays are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded two of their top prospects for Berrios.

 

On the day the Yankees traded Chapman, they were in the same situation the Jays were in when they traded for Berrios. The most popular franchise in baseball and the 2nd most valuable franchise in sports by far has more to lose from an optics standpoint by selling than the Blue Jays do. Yet, they were still able to re-sign Chapman a few months later. If Ray liked his time in Toronto, likes working with Walker, and gets the best offer from the Jays, then why wouldn't he come back even if he were traded? Also, Semien signed a one year deal precisely to cash out the following season. He didn't sign with Toronto for preference, it was financial. It would be the same if they traded him and tried to sign him back. He's not turning down the best offer because of a trade, nor is he taking a discount for a non-trade. I really don't think much would have changed.

 

True, these guys are human, and maybe they take a trade personally. I'm not saying that's not possible. I just don't think that's the mindset most FA's have, especially two guys who intentionally took pillow contracts to increase their value for the following season.

[Laika]

2016: Yankees are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded Chapman to the Cubs.

2021: Blue Jays are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded two of their top prospects for Berrios.

 

On the day the Yankees traded Chapman, they were in the same situation the Jays were in when they traded for Berrios. The most popular franchise in baseball and the 2nd most valuable franchise in sports by far has more to lose from an optics standpoint by selling than the Blue Jays do. Yet, they were still able to re-sign Chapman a few months later. If Ray liked his time in Toronto, likes working with Walker, and gets the best offer from the Jays, then why wouldn't he come back even if he were traded? Also, Semien signed a one year deal precisely to cash out the following season. He didn't sign with Toronto for preference, it was financial. It would be the same if they traded him and tried to sign him back. He's not turning down the best offer because of a trade, nor is he taking a discount for a non-trade. I really don't think much would have changed.

 

True, these guys are human, and maybe they take a trade personally. I'm not saying that's not possible. I just don't think that's the mindset most FA's have, especially two guys who intentionally took pillow contracts to increase their value for the following season.

 

The Yankees gave Chapman a mega contract. It's not comparable to Toronto trying to bring back Ray or Semien after dealing them.

 

Nobody should want Toronto to have to pay Robbie Ray the absolute highest amount of money to sign him. You'd like to think that after his career turnaround there will be other factors that are at least a bit important to him.

 

The Yankees had to rebuild. The situations aren't comparable other than playoff proximity. They traded a 39 year old DH and two relievers that deadline. The Yankees also had a negative run differential that year - deadline decisions are as much about projected performance as they are about current standings.

[The Iceman]

 

Holy f***. That's awful.

 

For me it isn't even the 0-fer

You can still be 0-fer and score a run from 3rd with a ground ball, or make an out but have a good AB.

Not only is he 0-fer he makes the least productive outs as any batter I have ever seen, and has the worst ABs. Take a strike, swing at a ball, 0-2 is what I expect.

GIDP, pop-up, K are the norms.

 

Dickerson had an AB last week where he had a runner at 3rd less than 2 outs with 2 strikes and he was almost choked up to the top of his bat handle. He was going to make a productive out to cash and he did.

[Stangstag]

The Yankees gave Chapman a mega contract. It's not comparable to Toronto trying to bring back Ray or Semien after dealing them.

 

Nobody should want Toronto to have to pay Robbie Ray the absolute highest amount of money to sign him. You'd like to think that after his career turnaround there will be other factors that are at least a bit important to him.

 

The Yankees had to rebuild. The situations aren't comparable other than playoff proximity. They traded a 39 year old DH and two relievers that deadline. The Yankees also had a negative run differential that year - deadline decisions are as much about projected performance as they are about current standings.

 

We’re also not the Yankees where every little kid always dreams of playing there. Its just not the same at all.

[Stangstag]

2016: Yankees are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded Chapman to the Cubs.

2021: Blue Jays are 4.5 games out of a WC2 spot with 3 teams to catch. They traded two of their top prospects for Berrios.

 

On the day the Yankees traded Chapman, they were in the same situation the Jays were in when they traded for Berrios. The most popular franchise in baseball and the 2nd most valuable franchise in sports by far has more to lose from an optics standpoint by selling than the Blue Jays do. Yet, they were still able to re-sign Chapman a few months later. If Ray liked his time in Toronto, likes working with Walker, and gets the best offer from the Jays, then why wouldn't he come back even if he were traded? Also, Semien signed a one year deal precisely to cash out the following season. He didn't sign with Toronto for preference, it was financial. It would be the same if they traded him and tried to sign him back. He's not turning down the best offer because of a trade, nor is he taking a discount for a non-trade. I really don't think much would have changed.

 

True, these guys are human, and maybe they take a trade personally. I'm not saying that's not possible. I just don't think that's the mindset most FA's have, especially two guys who intentionally took pillow contracts to increase their value for the following season.

 

You’re also missing the fact that we can give them both the QO and that gives us major leverage to re-sign them.

 

Also you said “if Ray liked his time in Toronto”... bro by that point Ray had never even played (or lived) in Toronto. Same with Semien.

[Key22]

My issue here is this - Ray has been the team's best starting pitcher and Semien is the second-best player.

 

They're a 4th place AL East team WITH those two. If in the offseason you lose one or both then you need an equal calibre pair of players just to make this team, once again, a 4th place team.

 

You need those two AND you have to add. Preferably a third baseman and two lights-out bullpen arms to support Romano. I like some of the middle inning options they have but you ideally want two more Romano types - guys who come in and can K the side.

 

A new manager - Paul Molitor won manager of the year in 2017 and then was fired the following year. I don't know if he was actually a good manager but if he is - he would provide good optics if they fire Monty.

 

Maybe he can be a player-manager - he could probably at least get a bloody bunt down even at 65.

[Spanky__99]

lol

[saskjayfan]

My issue here is this - Ray has been the team's best starting pitcher and Semien is the second-best player.

 

They're a 4th place AL East team WITH those two. If in the offseason you lose one or both then you need an equal calibre pair of players just to make this team, once again, a 4th place team.

 

You need those two AND you have to add. Preferably a third baseman and two lights-out bullpen arms to support Romano. I like some of the middle inning options they have but you ideally want two more Romano types - guys who come in and can K the side.

 

A new manager - Paul Molitor won manager of the year in 2017 and then was fired the following year. I don't know if he was actually a good manager but if he is - he would provide good optics if they fire Monty.

 

Maybe he can be a player-manager - he could probably at least get a bloody bunt down even at 65.

 

If we had a lights out bullpen all year we might have won 12 to 15 games more. If we just had the bullpen we have right now earlier in the season, we might have won 5 or 6 more games. We have to do everything we can to sign Ray. Semien will go to San Francisco if they want him. If they don't I think we'd have a good shot if we want him. The money is there next year, it is the last couple years. It would be great if Rogers made a shift and put their big boy pants on and were prepared to spend to the luxury tax even beyond for short periods of time.