Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[John_Havok]

Bump for leaving players off the lineup card... smh

 

He’s not required to have potential substitutes on the lineup card.

 

Fire yourself.

[glory]

He benched the best hitter on the team so far (whose statcast numbers back up his performance) in favor of Joe Panik, and apparently "splits" were the reason why, despite Hernandez being above average against righties in his career (killing them so far this year) and Panik is Ryan Goins against them the last few years.

 

This is going to be a long 60 games.

[Terminator]

He benched the best hitter on the team so far (whose statcast numbers back up his performance) in favor of Joe Panik, and apparently "splits" were the reason why, despite Hernandez being above average against righties in his career (killing them so far this year) and Panik is Ryan Goins against them the last few years.

 

This is going to be a long 60 games.

 

Did he really say splits were the reason why? Lmao

[Boxcar]

He’s not required to have potential substitutes on the lineup card.

 

Fire yourself.

 

Hooray for the defender of Montoyo

[Boxcar]

Did he really say splits were the reason why? Lmao

 

The real reason is because he just desperately needs to find a way to get ABs for Joe Panik

[Deadpool]

Did he really say splits were the reason why? Lmao

 

That's what they relayed on the broadcast, yeah. It was astonishingly dumb.

[Laika]

I have thought about the Teoscar - Panik thing and have decided that it is not egregious in a nutshell but it is utterly confusing based on what else has happened this year.

 

The central question is - is the team trying to win in 2020 or treating it as one last developmental year?

 

When the team signed Joe Panik I thought it was a nice little pickup. He had been bad for two years but was quite good before that and is only 29. Panik and Teoscar actually have the same projected wOBA by Steamer. Let's just agree that 2020 statistics are not meaningful yet. People tend to under-appreciate how important the platoon advantage can be and casual observers are just not capable of mentally processing how to properly regress platoon splits. I am confident that, on paper, Panik over Teoscar improves the team's projected performance against a right handed pitcher. A team like the Rays would almost certainly play Panik over Teoscar if it was a binary choice in that context.

 

However, we have already seen 11 PAs go to Santiago Espinal this year, and 7 PAs go to Anthony Alford. I believe they have both started multiple games when there were other options and it was not necessary. There is no projected scenario where either should be on the field if the team is trying to win, unless they are coming in as pinch runners or defensive replacements. This is a signal that the team is trying to give playing time to young players and prioritizing development over 2020 winning.

 

Clearly if development is the goal Teoscar should play every day.

 

I'm just not sure what the plan is and what is going on.

[EastCoaster]

Charlie Montoyo is undoubtedly a real nice guy and very likable by all people but he's far from a stellar major league manager. Hernadez is the Blue Jays hottest hitter right now that's the guy who should be penciled first in the lineup card regardless of the splits you've always got to go with the hot bat. Another thing that irks me is these players moving around you've got your starters at each position play them there. Vlad Guerrero Jr is suppose to be the regular first baseman evolving at a new position leave him there to learn and gain confidence never mind having him DH every 3rd game. Really how dumb can you look inserting a player not on a lineup card especially in a MLB game. Heck every minor league baseball coaches in Canada knows that for a fact you got your regular 9 players then your substitutes anybody not on that list cannot play in the game it's that simple.

[Boxcar]

I have thought about the Teoscar - Panik thing and have decided that it is not egregious in a nutshell but it is utterly confusing based on what else has happened this year.

 

The central question is - is the team trying to win in 2020 or treating it as one last developmental year?

 

When the team signed Joe Panik I thought it was a nice little pickup. He had been bad for two years but was quite good before that and is only 29. Panik and Teoscar actually have the same projected wOBA by Steamer. Let's just agree that 2020 statistics are not meaningful yet. People tend to under-appreciate how important the platoon advantage can be and casual observers are just not capable of mentally processing how to properly regress platoon splits. I am confident that, on paper, Panik over Teoscar improves the team's projected performance against a right handed pitcher. A team like the Rays would almost certainly play Panik over Teoscar if it was a binary choice in that context.

 

However, we have already seen 11 PAs go to Santiago Espinal this year, and 7 PAs go to Anthony Alford. I believe they have both started multiple games when there were other options and it was not necessary. There is no projected scenario where either should be on the field if the team is trying to win, unless they are coming in as pinch runners or defensive replacements. This is a signal that the team is trying to give playing time to young players and prioritizing development over 2020 winning.

 

Clearly if development is the goal Teoscar should play every day.

 

I'm just not sure what the plan is and what is going on.

 

I feel like the difference between Panik and Hernandez in a platoon is so small that, in the best case scenario, the increase in team WAR would be negligible at the cost of finding out over a longer period of Hernandez is actually for real.

 

And I've been very outspoken about Hernandez being a bench player, so it's not like he's my Alejandro Kirk or Jake Marisnick. I desperately want to be proven wrong.

 

Things that need to happen, immediately, imo:

 

Get rid of Tellez

Get rid of Alford

I don't really want to get rid of Panik but he is so egregiously being misused that it's hard to make me want him to stay but whatever, idk.

 

Either sign a DH/1B or bring up Kirk to see what he's got, I don't see the harm. Catchers don't play every day so service time wouldn't be an issue in the long run. Or, just sign Puig. Tellez sucks. He is completely reliant on his bat to be even an average player, and that would probably need to be a 125 wRC+ minimum, but probably more and he's not going to sniff that.

 

Fisher fills Alford's role and seems like the better bet going forward. The guy just sucks. It's unfortunate, but he can't even hit cookies down the middle.

 

I think using the season to develop vs. trying to compete with the current roster will not yield dissimilar results in the long run.

[Laika]

I feel like the difference between Panik and Hernandez in a platoon is so small that, in the best case scenario, the increase in team WAR would be negligible at the cost of finding out over a longer period of Hernandez is actually for real.

 

This is a math question. You might be completely correct. I'm just not confident the team is even doing to math. It seems like there is no plan and this was just a random decision by Charles.

[John_Havok]

Hooray for the defender of Montoyo

 

Not so much defending Montoyo as pointing out rage at something nobody should be raging about.

 

The fact he didn’t put him on the lineup card isn’t bad, not knowing that he didn’t have to and then lying down like a chump when the ump wouldn’t let him bring him in and not playing the game under protest as a result is the problem. Dude obviously doesn’t have the managerial chops to the the front line guy. He should stick to whatever position he was in the Rays org

[John_Havok]

Really how dumb can you look inserting a player not on a lineup card especially in a MLB game. Heck every minor league baseball coaches in Canada knows that for a fact you got your regular 9 players then your substitutes anybody not on that list cannot play in the game it's that simple.

 

Christ...be mad for the s*** ton of things he’s done wrong, but the lineup card faux pas isn’t a thing. If every coach in Canada thinks you need to have subs on the lineup card, THEYRE ALL WRONG (local league rules being a possible exception). Please read below and educate yourself so you can direct your rage for legitimate reasons. Pay close attention to the bold and italics

 

 

4.03 Exchange of Lineup Cards

Unless the home Club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence:

(a) First, the home manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

( Next, the visiting manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

© As a courtesy, each lineup card presented to the umpire-in- chief should list the fielding positions to be played by each

player in the batting order. If a designated hitter is to be used, the lineup card shall designate which hitter is to be the designated hitter. See Rule 5.11(a). As a courtesy, potential substitute players should also be listed, but the failure to list a potential substitute player shall not make such potential substitute player ineligible to enter the game

[Terminator]

Buck always makes it seem like Montoyo is playing the end of the roster guys so they aren’t rusty. Whether he heard that from Montoyo or he’s talking out of his ass I can’t tell.

[Jonn]

Buck always makes it seem like Montoyo is playing the end of the roster guys so they aren’t rusty. Whether he heard that from Montoyo or he’s talking out of his ass I can’t tell.

 

That’s the observation a lot of people are making here as well. He seems to be trying to get everyone playing time which you would see more frequently on a minor league team where you probably want to get a look at a bunch of different guys.

 

At this level and especially with this condensed schedule you can’t afford to not have your best 9 available in the lineup as much as humanly possible. Its not like we have good hitters off the bench either that are pushing in the lineup. I wish we were the Dodgers or Astros where we had guys pushing into the lineup because they have to many good players and not enough spots. We arguably have to many s***** hitters in our regular lineup.

[glory]

Buck always makes it seem like Montoyo is playing the end of the roster guys so they aren’t rusty. Whether he heard that from Montoyo or he’s talking out of his ass I can’t tell.

 

One of the things I noticed about him last year was that it felt like he rarely played the same lineup consecutively. I guess in a tanking year it made no difference, but that approach of trying to get everyone in the lineup is not conducive to winning. Bench players are bench players for a reason. Play your starters until they need a day off or need to be platooned. If he's more worried about whether Joe Panik is getting AB's, then he's not trying to win games.

[Deadpool]

One of the things I noticed about him last year was that it felt like he rarely played the same lineup consecutively. I guess in a tanking year it made no difference, but that approach of trying to get everyone in the lineup is not conducive to winning. Bench players are bench players for a reason. Play your starters until they need a day off or need to be platooned. If he's more worried about whether Joe Panik is getting AB's, then he's not trying to win games.

 

Yeah, at this point, Panik and Drury should be cemented to the bench and only used in emergencies (or, in Drury's case, possibly as a defensive sub, Panik isn't even a good defender, so his value is limited there...). There's no need to get either of those guys ABs. Same goes for Tellez, Espinal, Alford and Fisher. We have LGJ, Grichuk and Teo in the OF, Shaw, Biggio, Bichette and Vladdy in the IF and Janssen/McGuire as the catching duo, w/ Janssen getting the bulk of the playing time. Those should be the players on the field 90% of the time. There's no need to "get as many lefties into the lineup as possible" against right handed pitchers, and there's no need to see if Drury is anything more than a 12 wRC+ player, because he's shown that he absolutely is not.

[Jonn]

The Joe Panik thing is just weird. I don’t just wonder why hes getting in the lineup so much I wonder why hes even on this team in the first place. He brings almost nothing to the table. No power, no speed, he doesn’t have the arm strength to play anywhere but second yet they are trying him at third a lot where he hasn’t looked good taking ground balls let alone making the throws over.

 

If we are really just going to have a light hitting utility hitter on the bench I would rather it be someone with position versatility and some speed. May as well just be Espinal. The Blue Jays seem to always have weak benches even on the playoff teams.

[Brownie19]

The Joe Panik thing is just weird. I don’t just wonder why hes getting in the lineup so much I wonder why hes even on this team in the first place. He brings almost nothing to the table. No power, no speed, he doesn’t have the arm strength to play anywhere but second yet they are trying him at third a lot where he hasn’t looked good taking ground balls let alone making the throws over.

 

If we are really just going to have a light hitting utility hitter on the bench I would rather it be someone with position versatility and some speed. May as well just be Espinal. The Blue Jays seem to always have weak benches even on the playoff teams.

 

Panik needs to be Billy Beaned the f*** off this team. Someone get Dombroski on the phone - we need someone to fill the pop machine in the clubhouse!

[Spanky99]

That's my banner pic on facebook

 

You should post that pic again, it's awesome.

[Spanky99]

Christ...be mad for the s*** ton of things he’s done wrong, but the lineup card faux pas isn’t a thing. If every coach in Canada thinks you need to have subs on the lineup card, THEYRE ALL WRONG (local league rules being a possible exception). Please read below and educate yourself so you can direct your rage for legitimate reasons. Pay close attention to the bold and italics

 

 

4.03 Exchange of Lineup Cards

Unless the home Club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence:

(a) First, the home manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

( Next, the visiting manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

© As a courtesy, each lineup card presented to the umpire-in- chief should list the fielding positions to be played by each

player in the batting order. If a designated hitter is to be used, the lineup card shall designate which hitter is to be the designated hitter. See Rule 5.11(a). As a courtesy, potential substitute players should also be listed, but the failure to list a potential substitute player shall not make such potential substitute player ineligible to enter the game

 

Well, he made a good point prior to that quote, but why are you getting so worked up about a rule that 4 MLB umps including the crew chief and 2 managers didn't know either. Everyone should be throwing their rage at them, rightfully so. Right? Charlie should've protested right then and there.

[John_Havok]

Well, he made a good point prior to that quote, but why are you getting so worked up about a rule that 4 MLB umps including the crew chief and 2 managers didn't know either. Everyone should be throwing their rage at them, rightfully so. Right? Charlie should've protested right then and there.

 

I’m not worked up. I just like rage to be directed rationally instead of piling on due to ignorance. Montoyo deserves to be removed from his job, but not because of a lineup card issue that isn’t a thing, and when people say things like “all coaches across Canada know you have to do this” that person is trying to make themselves out to be an expert in something they know nothing about to try and join the group on the hate train and be one of the cool kids.

 

So really, my goal is not to defend Montoyo or whatever, but rather to expose ignorance and try to get people to think twice before they post something that makes them look stupid and uninformed.

 

Think of it as a public service.

[EastCoaster]

Christ...be mad for the s*** ton of things he’s done wrong, but the lineup card faux pas isn’t a thing. If every coach in Canada thinks you need to have subs on the lineup card, THEYRE ALL WRONG (local league rules being a possible exception). Please read below and educate yourself so you can direct your rage for legitimate reasons. Pay close attention to the bold and italics

 

 

4.03 Exchange of Lineup Cards

Unless the home Club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence:

(a) First, the home manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

( Next, the visiting manager, or his designee, shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

© As a courtesy, each lineup card presented to the umpire-in- chief should list the fielding positions to be played by each

player in the batting order. If a designated hitter is to be used, the lineup card shall designate which hitter is to be the designated hitter. See Rule 5.11(a). As a courtesy, potential substitute players should also be listed, but the failure to list a potential substitute player shall not make such potential substitute player ineligible to enter the game

 

I don't know what scrub baseball would follow that substitute rules because it's moot nobody adhere by it. Mostly all league follow substitute must listed on the line up the fact are proof Waguespack wasn't allowed in the game simply because he wasn't on the line up card. I think MLB umpires should know the rules especially one as simple as the use of a substitute player in a game. Now in the lower level of baseball there's a re entry rule where you can substitute one player and have him re enter the game one time only how do you expect everyone to keep track of which players enter and leave the game without have their names and numbers on a line up card. There's a reason on every printable line up card that's available it has a column especially for substitute players.

[Laika]

I don't know what scrub baseball would follow that substitute rules because it's moot nobody adhere by it. Mostly all league follow substitute must listed on the line up the fact are proof Waguespack wasn't allowed ...

 

Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?

[wilko]

I want to know why he thought putting Font in over Bass in the bottom of the 9th was a good idea? Font had an inning of work before that.

[Spanky99]

I want to know why he thought putting Font in over Bass in the bottom of the 9th was a good idea? Font had an inning of work before that.

 

Saved him to close out the 10th likely, with a man on second base that's the right move.

[wilko]

Saved him to close out the 10th likely, with a man on second base that's the right move.

 

Bass can't pitch more than one inning?

[Spanky99]

Bass can't pitch more than one inning?

 

Well, not usually I don't think, he's no Josh Hader.

[Krylian]

Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?

 

I used to. But I found that my balls started swelling more than I'd like.

[FrozenRopes]

I used to. But I found that my balls started swelling more than I'd like.

 

How did you make heads or tails of what was said there?

[Krylian]

How did you make heads or tails of what was said there?

 

Seemed pretty clear to me.