Luhnow and Hinch Suspensions

[Boxcar]

qft

 

quoting MYSELF for truth...

 

Congrats

[Boxcar]

This is the part i am saying...he can't rule with an iron fist because he would lose any court case which follows based on precedent. He has no real power. All he can do is propose strong punishments moving forward. Think on a more realistic side instead of a fan. The only way to suspend players was to not release the investigation until you have everything

 

Dude, give it a rest. Manfred f***ing sucks. He might be the worst commissioner MLB has ever had.

[Spanky99]

With the information provided within this press conference it does certainly change the overall picture from one that MLB completely f***ed up, to one where MLB took the poison pill presented by the players union, who end up being very complicit on the guilty parties completely avoiding punishment in what is one of the biggest cheating scandals in modern sporting history. Not getting any cooperation from the players without blanket immunity has turned out to be a huge mistake by the players union based on how angry the overall player base is about this. I think an interesting option going forward is to re-open this investigation, and present the players union with some new options. Either the players union waives this immunity for the guilty parties, or the championship is taken away from Houston completely.

 

That would be peachy good, one could dream. This press conference should've been done initially, I guess the commissioners office didn't foresee this reaction from the players.

[Bobthe4th]

[Spanky99]

PLAYER DISCIPLINE POSSIBLE FOR FUTURE SIGN-STEALING OFFENSES

 

Feb 19, 2020 , By JAKE SEINER

 

Major league players could be punished for future sign-stealing violations in the wake of the Houston Astros' scandal that only resulted in discipline for managers, coaches and executives.

 

Commissioner Rob Manfred and union head Tony Clark both said Tuesday that MLB and the players' association are discussing potential rules changes regarding sign stealing and technology.

 

"Written proposals have been exchanged, and we have made it clear to MLB that no issue is off the table, including player discipline," Clark said in a statement.

 

Houston manager AJ Hinch and general manager Jeff Luhnow were banned for one season by Manfred and subsequently fired by the team last month after MLB released the findings of its investigation into the Astros. Former bench coach Alex Cora is expected to be disciplined when baseball announces the results of its probe into the Boston Red Sox, who cut ties with Cora as manager due to his involvement with Houston's illegal sign stealing in 2017 and 2018.

 

Carlos Beltran, the only Astros player mentioned in the MLB report, was not disciplined by the league but was let go in his new role as New York Mets manager.

 

No players were punished by MLB, and opponents from other teams have expressed dismay over that fact since spring training opened last week. Many have also called for Manfred to strip Houston of its 2017 World Series title.

 

Manfred said he's never seen so much "commentary from players about other players."

 

The commissioner said Tuesday that MLB reached out to the union seeking player cooperation in the probe after initial investigation efforts were unsuccessful. Manfred said the union asked for player immunity in exchange for that cooperation, and Manfred agreed "because we were at a bit of a stalemate," he said.

 

Responding to Manfred's comments Tuesday, Clark said MLB contacted the union to inform it of the investigation on Nov. 13, the day after The Athletic published an article detailing Houston's scheme. Clark said the players' association and MLB agreed on player immunity later that day.

 

"Any suggestion that the association failed to cooperate with the commissioner's investigation, obstructed the investigation, or otherwise took positions which led to a stalemate in the investigation is completely untrue," Clark said. "We acted to protect the rights of our members, as is our obligation under the law."

 

Clark said Astros players were never informed of MLB rules regarding technology-aided sign stealing and noted the commissioner had said after past sign-stealing transgressions years before that club personnel - and not players - would be held responsible for future violations.

 

He added that among the items now being discussed with the league are "potential rule changes affecting sign stealing, in-game technology and video, data access and usage, club audits and disclosures, player education, and enforcement - including the potential for player discipline."

[DigitalRock]

There's definitely more cheating around the league, that is why I think he has no intention of vacating the 2017 WS. Once the 2018 Red Sox stuff comes out, then there will be an outcry to vacate that title as well. Then if we later find out the Cubs cheated in 2016, etc, etc, etc. He doesn't want to open that Pandora's Box.

 

 

No way not to the extent the STROS did.....if it was more common around the league players would not be this mad and calling out other players..

 

They alone got caught. There's enough rumour and hearsay (which are KINDS of evidence) that it's not just them.

 

LOL. Sure...thats why players are so mad because they were doing it too... Disagree, not to the extent the stros were doing it. That is blatantly obvious. If it was common, it would be just like Roids, players would be all sticking to the PR line. If it comes out more were doing it the players reps will be ruined after blasting the Stros.... We never seen players go after other players like this before for a reason.

[onwego]

Dude, give it a rest. Manfred f***ing sucks. He might be the worst commissioner MLB has ever had.

 

 

never thought I'd miss Bud pretending the current year was his last one, for about 15 straight seasons

[onwego]

That would be peachy good, one could dream. This press conference should've been done initially, I guess the commissioners office didn't foresee this reaction from the players.

 

 

we have watched the outrage and upholding of the ban on Pete Rose for decades now

 

i won't argue that it isn't just, but it's a good indicator of the indignation at the besmirching of the honour of the game

[Spanky99]

Haha... love me some Gibby!

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/john-gibbons-handled-astros-scandal-manager/

 

[onwego]

every first inning for a road trip, a reenactment of...

 

Rose HBP

Morgan HBP

Driessen HBP

Perez 1st pitch *behind him*

[EastCoaster]

The only reason the players weren't disciplined is how do you differentiate who really benefited and who didn't in any team that stole signs it's pretty much a guarantee that every player benefited in one form or another especially knowing what pitch was thrown. You can't suspend a whole team that why they only chose to suspend management the ones who had the power to stop it.

 

This only make the case stronger to lift the ban for Pete Rose to inducted into the baseball HOF at least his gambling didn't change the outcome of any games.

[Brownie19]

The only reason the players weren't disciplined is how do you differentiate who really benefited and who didn't in any team that stole signs it's pretty much a guarantee that every player benefited in one form or another especially knowing what pitch was thrown. You can't suspend a whole team that why they only chose to suspend management the ones who had the power to stop it.

 

This only make the case stronger to lift the ban for Pete Rose to inducted into the baseball HOF at least his gambling didn't change the outcome of any games.

 

you can't possibly believe that.

[Pendleton]

[Pendleton]

[glory]

Opposing players are going to take suspensions just to hit some of these Astros players. A few brawls or two (or 10) would help the game.

[Brownie19]

Opposing players are going to take suspensions just to hit some of these Astros players. A few brawls or two (or 10) would help the game.

 

So pitchers are still going to throw at Astros hitters even though it was their own Players Association that fought for the immunity blanket that prevented the league from suspending them? (I have to imagine nobody would throw at them if they got suspended because nobody throws at PED users)

 

That's kind of f***ed up and frankly, pretty stupid. Perhaps pitchers should throw balls at Tony Clark's face. Just randomly...Tony is walking down the hall and Bauer jumped out and whips a ball at his face. Now that would be entertaining.

 

Personally - I think intentionally hurting your teams chances of winning just to 'teach' a batter that he's been a bad boy is incredibly stupid. Why not just put a useless backup player as your first baseman and sucker punch an Astros player when he comes to first? Wouldn't that send the same message without 'really' hurting your chance of winning.

 

That would be an excellent role for Rowdy Tellez this year. We'll use our 26th roster spot to send Rowdy out to punch Astro players in the face to 'teach them a lesson they won't forget'.

[glory]

So pitchers are still going to throw at Astros hitters even though it was their own Players Association that fought for the immunity blanket that prevented the league from suspending them? (I have to imagine nobody would throw at them if they got suspended because nobody throws at PED users)

 

That's kind of f***ed up and frankly, pretty stupid. Perhaps pitchers should throw balls at Tony Clark's face. Just randomly...Tony is walking down the hall and Bauer jumped out and whips a ball at his face. Now that would be entertaining.

 

Personally - I think intentionally hurting your teams chances of winning just to 'teach' a batter that he's been a bad boy is incredibly stupid. Why not just put a useless backup player as your first baseman and sucker punch an Astros player when he comes to first? Wouldn't that send the same message without 'really' hurting your chance of winning.

 

That would be an excellent role for Rowdy Tellez this year. We'll use our 26th roster spot to send Rowdy out to punch Astro players in the face to 'teach them a lesson they won't forget'.

 

My takeaway is the players want Manfred to vacate the title, not necessarily punish individual players. Players know the MLBPA is working in their best interests so they'd never openly question Clark or the association. Since the players went unpunished, meaning they are still walking around as 2017 champions with no remorse, it's going to cause issues. As far as players not wanting to hurt their teams by getting ejected/suspended, look at the Rangers/Bautista stuff that happened. It's going to happen. Possibly many times. It probably wouldn't happen in meaningful games/moments, but on a lazy June afternoon in a blowout game, certain players are going to react.

 

With LeBron chiming in, that's another 40+ million people who follow him who now know about the scandal if they didn't already. It's not going away any time soon.

[Brownie19]

My takeaway is the players want Manfred to vacate the title, not necessarily punish individual players. Players know the MLBPA is working in their best interests so they'd never openly question Clark or the association. Since the players went unpunished, meaning they are still walking around as 2017 champions with no remorse, it's going to cause issues. As far as players not wanting to hurt their teams by getting ejected/suspended, look at the Rangers/Bautista stuff that happened. It's going to happen. Possibly many times. It probably wouldn't happen in meaningful games/moments, but on a lazy June afternoon in a blowout game, certain players are going to react.

 

With LeBron chiming in, that's another 40+ million people who follow him who now know about the scandal if they didn't already. It's not going away any time soon.

 

Players are stupid then. They aren't going to vacate the title.

 

If given the opportunity to cheat to win the World Series, I'd render a guess that almost every player in baseball would choose to go along with it. f*** - almost every pitcher in baseball is cheating right now and there's still lots of players using PEDs to win. To suggest the title should be revoked simply because the Astros cheated 'more' or 'better' than they did is utter nonsense.

 

Do players think everyone on the Astros who isn't named Beltran is a pussy ass beta? It's easy for them to say "I wouldn't have allowed that s***", but the reality is that probably 40 Astros players + coaches (accounting for different guys on the 25 man roster) all knew it was happening and didn't stop them or speak up. For players to pretend they would have handled it differently is top notch ********.

 

If players think it's wrong and feel the players should be punished - than stand the f*** up to Tony Clark and the PA and tell them to f*** off - that what they did was wrong and do something about it. Judge/Trout/Bellinger talk a big game about how wrong it was to cheat - then put on your big boy pants and go tell the PA that what they did was wrong. Don't be a f***ing pussy and hurl a baseball at someone's head.

 

The reality is they won't (just like teachers won't stand up to their union) - just like they probably wouldn't have spoken out and stopped the cheating if they were on the Astros in 2017. They would have gone along with it and collected their rings.

[Grant77]

Players are stupid then. They aren't going to vacate the title.

 

If given the opportunity to cheat to win the World Series, I'd render a guess that almost every player in baseball would choose to go along with it. f*** - almost every pitcher in baseball is cheating right now and there's still lots of players using PEDs to win. To suggest the title should be revoked simply because the Astros cheated 'more' or 'better' than they did is utter nonsense.

 

Do players think everyone on the Astros who isn't named Beltran is a pussy ass beta? It's easy for them to say "I wouldn't have allowed that s***", but the reality is that probably 40 Astros players + coaches (accounting for different guys on the 25 man roster) all knew it was happening and didn't stop them or speak up. For players to pretend they would have handled it differently is top notch ********.

 

If players think it's wrong and feel the players should be punished - than stand the f*** up to Tony Clark and the PA and tell them to f*** off - that what they did was wrong and do something about it. Judge/Trout/Bellinger talk a big game about how wrong it was to cheat - then put on your big boy pants and go tell the PA that what they did was wrong. Don't be a f***ing pussy and hurl a baseball at someone's head.

 

The reality is they won't (just like teachers won't stand up to their union) - just like they probably wouldn't have spoken out and stopped the cheating if they were on the Astros in 2017. They would have gone along with it and collected their rings.

 

It isn't nonsense at all. There has got to be a line that, if a team crosses it, the title is vacated. Your anything goes attitude is not the way to approach this.

 

You obviously think that the Astros cheating wasn't very bad and that's valid. It's also valid to think that they crossed that line and should actually be punished. It's up for debate as to where this fits on the spectrum between corking a bat and the Black Sox scandal.

[Brownie19]

It isn't nonsense at all. There has got to be a line that, if a team crosses it, the title is vacated. Your anything goes attitude is not the way to approach this.

 

You obviously think that the Astros cheating wasn't very bad and that's valid. It's also valid to think that they crossed that line and should actually be punished. It's up for debate as to where this fits on the spectrum between corking a bat and the Black Sox scandal.

 

I do think their cheating was bad; however, I fully suspect they played against a host of other players who were also cheating. I know they competed against pitchers who were using illegal substances, I fully suspect they played against lots of players who were on PEDs and I suspect they were playing against teams that were also stealing signs. I also suspect there are players cheating in ways I've never thought of.

 

I find it difficult to suggest to decide where that line is and to suggest they were the only team that crossed that line. We know very little about what impact added grip has. For all we know certain teams (perhaps even the Astros!) may have developed a combo that significantly improves spin rates and adds a huge boost to their success. How do you know it's not at the same level as the Astros sign stealing?

 

If the league, teams and players ALL turn the blind eye on cheating that's happening within the game (whether it's big or small) - it's not reasonable to then draw some imaginary line and throw them to the fire.

 

That's why I highly doubt they'll ever take away their title and why they didn't include that as a punishment.

[Grant77]

I do think their cheating was bad; however, I fully suspect they played against a host of other players who were also cheating. I know they competed against pitchers who were using illegal substances, I fully suspect they played against lots of players who were on PEDs and I suspect they were playing against teams that were also stealing signs. I also suspect there are players cheating in ways I've never thought of.

 

I find it difficult to suggest to decide where that line is and to suggest they were the only team that crossed that line. We know very little about what impact added grip has. For all we know certain teams (perhaps even the Astros!) may have developed a combo that significantly improves spin rates and adds a huge boost to their success. How do you know it's not at the same level as the Astros sign stealing?

 

If the league, teams and players ALL turn the blind eye on cheating that's happening within the game (whether it's big or small) - it's not reasonable to then draw some imaginary line and throw them to the fire.

 

That's why I highly doubt they'll ever take away their title and why they didn't include that as a punishment.

 

I don't know that it's reasonable to forego serious punishment of the Astros just because we suspect that other teams are cheating as well.

 

Players do use PEDs and they are punished. The red sox also used technology to steal signs and they will presumably be punished.

 

I'm not suggesting that every rule is enforced, but this is what they know right now. If it becomes clear in the future that foreign substances (or some other forms of cheating) are a major problem in the future then they can be compared to sign stealing at that time and proper punishment can be applied. Vacating a title would send a message and put a stop to much of the team wide cheating in my opinion.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Grant77

[Boxcar]

I do think their cheating was bad; however, I fully suspect they played against a host of other players who were also cheating. I know they competed against pitchers who were using illegal substances, I fully suspect they played against lots of players who were on PEDs and I suspect they were playing against teams that were also stealing signs. I also suspect there are players cheating in ways I've never thought of.

 

I find it difficult to suggest to decide where that line is and to suggest they were the only team that crossed that line. We know very little about what impact added grip has. For all we know certain teams (perhaps even the Astros!) may have developed a combo that significantly improves spin rates and adds a huge boost to their success. How do you know it's not at the same level as the Astros sign stealing?

 

If the league, teams and players ALL turn the blind eye on cheating that's happening within the game (whether it's big or small) - it's not reasonable to then draw some imaginary line and throw them to the fire.

 

That's why I highly doubt they'll ever take away their title and why they didn't include that as a punishment.

 

"I know the Astros cheated but who cares because I suspect other teams are cheating with no evidence."

 

Strong take, there.

[Brownie19]

"I know the Astros cheated but who cares because I suspect other teams are cheating with no evidence."

 

Strong take, there.

 

There's no evidence that pitchers are using sunscreen and rosin for grip? Of course there is - it's all over the place, but the league, the teams and the players are ignoring it. Bauer is out there suggesting that MLB should just change their rules to allow it.

 

And even perhaps without the evidence, teams knew other teams were stealing their signs. We know that, we saw catchers going to multiple signs without anyone on base and there are reports that everyone in the league knew sign stealing was happening and were taking measures to prevent it (apparently except for the Jays and one other team who didn't seem to care).

 

And it's not a suspicion that the Astros are playing against players using PEDs - it's a reality. Some where caught and suspended, others weren't caught.

[Laika]

There's no evidence that pitchers are using sunscreen and rosin for grip? Of course there is - it's all over the place, but the league, the teams and the players are ignoring it. Bauer is out there suggesting that MLB should just change their rules to allow it.

 

And even perhaps without the evidence, teams knew other teams were stealing their signs. We know that, we saw catchers going to multiple signs without anyone on base and there are reports that everyone in the league knew sign stealing was happening and were taking measures to prevent it (apparently except for the Jays and one other team who didn't seem to care).

 

And it's not a suspicion that the Astros are playing against players using PEDs - it's a reality. Some where caught and suspended, others weren't caught.

 

The Astros have specifically been accused of being the league leaders in foreign substance cheating too.

 

We also do know that teams and players complained to MLB about the Astros sign stealing but nothing was done by the commissioner until the reporters made it public.

[EastCoaster]

you can't possibly believe that.

 

How do you figure Pete Rose's gambling could affect the outcome of any games. There's sufficient evidence while he managed the Reds that he only placed bets on his team to win he never once bet against them to lose. Isn't all sport teams suppose to play to win, anyways that how we were taught growing up you always give it your best shot to win the games. That's an indication that he didn't purposely throw any games while managing to benefit himself personally. He didn't have any other control over any outcome of any other games than his own.

[Jimcanuck]

How do you figure Pete Rose's gambling could affect the outcome of any games. There's sufficient evidence while he managed the Reds that he only placed bets on his team to win he never once bet against them to lose. Isn't all sport teams suppose to play to win, anyways that how we were taught growing up you always give it your best shot to win the games. That's an indication that he didn't purposely throw any games while managing to benefit himself personally. He didn't have any other control over any outcome of any other games than his own.

 

So the games you bet on the Reds to win, you use all of your best bullpen pieces so they aren't available for the games you don't bet on them to win?

 

You hold back your best starter so he starts against a weaker opponent the next day?

[Brownie19]

So the games you bet on the Reds to win, you use all of your best bullpen pieces so they aren't available for the games you don't bet on them to win?

 

You hold back your best starter so he starts against a weaker opponent the next day?

 

Exactly. If you have more incentive to win certain games instead of all the games, you're going to manage differently. Playing in a close game that you didn't bet on...and planning to bet on tomorrow's game? are you going to use your best bullpen pieces or save them for tomorrow when you've got money on it?

 

Anyway - someone a lot smarter than me on here also just said there's evidence that Rose actually placed bets while he was a player and did bet on his team to lose. I suspect they're correct and thus this is all a moot point.

[Jimcanuck]

Gambling is a serious addiction though. Cheating (whether PEDs or banging garbage cans) is different from the actions of addicted gamblers.

 

MLB should forgive Rose, acknowledge gambling is highly addictive, and put him in the HOF already.

[Brownie19]

The Astros have specifically been accused of being the league leaders in foreign substance cheating too.

 

We also do know that teams and players complained to MLB about the Astros sign stealing but nothing was done by the commissioner until the reporters made it public.

 

I wouldn't doubt that one bit. We know most/all teams have pitchers doing it and nobody is doing s*** about it (league, teams, players). Doesn't that foster an environment where you're going to push the limits of it and see what you're going to get away with? There's a pretty high chance that a similar pattern developed with the sign stealing...

[flafson]

Not sure if this is the correct spot to ask but what the hell.

 

Now that we know the Astros cheated, does it impact advanced metrics for and against the Astros during those years?

 

In theory, advanced metrics should eliminate “luck” so if you rewind those same matches and Astros don’t cheat, then advanced metrics should show the same results.

 

What do you guys think?